I will not make a definitive ruling today, but for the benefit of the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh and all other hon. members who are interested in this point, the Chair has in hand a ruling given by Mr. Speaker Fraser on March 20, 1990, on this very point. Perhaps I could quote just a little bit of the ruling. I do not want to bore hon. members. It states:
Committees sitting at the same time as bells are sounded to call members into the House for a recorded division continues to be a problem in the eyes of some hon. members. On January 25 and again on January 30, first the hon. member for Ottawa Vanier and later the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca raised this matter.
This is not the first time this matter has been brought forward. Last May 31, for example, the hon. member for Hamilton East complained that the Standing Committee on the Environment was sitting at the same time as division bells were ringing in the House to call the members in for a vote.
Mr. Speaker Fraser went on. He referred to previous incidents from rulings from the Chair in 1971, 1976, 1978 and 1981. Clearly the Speaker had done a significant review of the situation. He concluded:
I am concerned about the matter raised by hon. members but, in my view, it is neither a point of order nor a question of privilege. It is rather a grievance but a serious one and in light of the many instances where the matter has been raised on the floor, it is one that merits some attention by the House. Perhaps the Standing Committee on Elections and Privileges might consider the situation to decide whether or not to recommend changes to our rules.
Evidently if the committee did consider the matter, changes were not made in the rules. The committee on procedure and House affairs, which has replaced that committee and did so many years ago, could consider this matter and come back with suggested changes to our rules that might deal with the grievance that is raised by the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc.
It appears, and I say appears because I am only hearing this now and have not done any more research than to dig out this particular ruling, that the issue raised by the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc is, as Mr. Speaker Fraser called it, a grievance and not a point of order or a question of privilege, and it may be that there is nothing I can do that will clarify the matter for the benefit of the hon. member or for the benefit of the House.
But certainly it is a grievance. In my view, the House ought to be the place where members should be able to come for a vote. When the bells summon members, they should come here. Indeed, in the old days committees had to have permission from the House to sit when the House was sitting, as is still the case in the other place down the hall.
If members want to consider such a change in the rules of our House so that committees cannot sit when the House is sitting, without permission, or if they must adjourn or suspend their sitting when bells are ringing to summon members here for a vote in the House, that is a question that could be considered by the committee on procedure and House affairs. The committee could make a report to the House that would result in either a directive or a change in our rules that would require committee chairs to act in accordance with that directive or those rules.
I will look at the matter. If the rules have changed any since the decision in 1990, I can assure the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc that he will be on firmer ground than the members who were arguing the case then, and I will come back with a decision. But if it appears that things have not changed since then, I think he has a good idea of what I am going to say when I do get back to the House on this point. I will look forward to that, as I am sure he will.