House of Commons Hansard #123 of the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was seniors.
Michael Ignatieff Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Mr. Speaker, when the minister was questioned in this House about the investigation by the Military Police Complaints Commission, he stated, “—I do not interfere with, nor will ever interfere with, any investigative process”.
Now his department is contesting the commission's jurisdiction.
Why did the minister mislead this House by stating that he would support this investigation when he knew very well that his department was plotting to derail it?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, currently four investigations are ongoing and four investigations will carry on to their conclusion, at which point we will learn whether there has been any wrongdoing or improper following of procedures. We will wait for the outcome of the four investigations.
Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, for almost a year now we have been alerting the government about the way the Canadian Forces transfer prisoners to the Afghan authorities. Every time, the Minister of National Defence said there was no problem because Canada was relying on the Red Cross, which ensures that these prisoners are well treated and informs the government when they are not. The Red Cross recently contradicted the minister: it does not have a policy of making such reports to Canada.
Will the Prime Minister call for the resignation of his Minister of National Defence, who mislead the House of Commons for months?
Peter Van Loan ConservativeLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform
Mr. Speaker, the minister made clear to the House at the earliest opportunity the clarification of the situation with the International Committee of the Red Cross. It is in fact very involved in the process with detainees. Part of our arrangement with the Afghan government is that it has access to them.
However, to ensure that the Canadian government is informed about the human rights situation of those detainees as well, we have entered into the recent arrangement with the human rights commissioner in Afghanistan and we believe this will ensure that we now have two levels of protection. This will be something that will be in the fine tradition of Canada's defence of human rights.
Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, the minister apologized for one reason only: because it was proven that he did not tell the truth in this House. That is the only reason he apologized, otherwise he would have continued to say things that were not true in this House. That is what he did for months.
I have the following question for him. Did he inform the Prime Minister of the situation or did he leave him in the dark? Was he at least able, for once, not to lobby the Prime Minister and tell him the truth instead of spreading falsehoods?
Peter Van Loan ConservativeLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform
Mr. Speaker, I think the minister's statement this morning speaks for itself and clarified the situation very well for the House. We now know exactly how detainees will be treated. We know the International Committee of the Red Cross has access to those detainees pursuant to our agreement with the government of Afghanistan and we know the Afghan human rights commissioner will be able to provide us information if there is any suspicion of maltreatment of detainees.
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence not only misled the House regarding the issue with the Red Cross, but he also said that he was capable of locating all the prisoners turned over to Afghan authorities. However, we now know that four have disappeared and one has died.
How could the Minister of National Defence appear so sure of himself, even though he definitely knew at the time that he could not locate all the prisoners turned over to Afghan authorities?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, the member is referring to an ongoing investigation. When the investigation is completed, we will know the facts.
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Speaker, it gets worse. Now, the Minister of National Defence is even considering preventing the military police from investigating the disappearance of these prisoners.
How can the minister explain that his department wants to stop the military police from investigating these disappearances, despite his claims that he wants to get to the bottom of this? There is definitely a contradiction there. How does he explain this new contradiction between what he says and what he does? If he had any honour left, the minister would resign immediately.
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, four investigations are ongoing. All the investigations will proceed and we will wait for the outcome of every investigation.
Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Speaker, the Conservative defence minister finally admitted he misled the House regarding the role of the Red Cross and the handling of prisoners taken by Canadians. We thank him for his apology. We are still waiting, however, for an apology from the Liberal defence minister who actually was the one who got us into this mess in the first place.
The Military Police Complaints Commission has started an investigation of all detainee transfers at the request of Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association. Will the minister assure the House, without qualification, that his department will not interfere in this independent investigation?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, four investigations are ongoing and all four will proceed.
Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Speaker, we are getting the same mantra over and over again, which is what he did in the past about the Red Cross.
The minister seems to be saying that his department will not interfere. Why then did the office of the JAG send a letter to the MPCC and to Amnesty telling them that DND would “have no alternative but to proceed” against the investigation?
In an attempt to stop the independent investigation, the JAG may serve legal papers as early as today. Is the minister aware of what is going on in his department this time?
AfghanistanOral Questions
Carleton—Mississippi Mills Ontario
Conservative
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, I have said that all the investigations, the National Investigation Service, the Board of Inquiry and the MPCC investigations, will proceed.
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence tried to play innocent today, with his lame excuses, but it is not working.
It is interesting because, through access to information, we were able to obtain a document that confirms that he had a telephone conversation with the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross on September 26, 2006. Even though they were not speaking face to face, I assume they talked about the situation in Afghanistan.
Can he confirm to this House that he spoke to the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross? At the same time, can he tell us if they talked about the situation of the detainees in Afghanistan?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, I met earlier with the president of the International Red Cross. We talked about a number of issues. We did not talk about that specific issue.
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Speaker, I would remind the House that this telephone conversation took place on September 26, 2006.
The Minister of National Defence does not want to come clean about the situation with the Afghan detainees. We know for a fact, thanks to a tip, that four detainees disappeared after we transferred them to the Afghan National Army. We arrested them because of the threat they posed to our troops and the Afghan people. Now they are back in the field against us because there is no or not enough monitoring.
I look the former arms' dealer straight in the eyes. Why will he not tell us what is really going on in Afghanistan?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, this particular incident is being investigated by the NIS at this time.
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Mr. Speaker, in January the Military Police Complaints Commission received a complaint about allegations of abuses suffered by Afghan detainees captured in April 2006 by members of the Canadian Forces. As part of a regular National Defence policy, the minister was informed about the fate of these detainees in a confidential report. Why did the minister wait for months before investigating these reports?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, all these various issues are under investigation. When the results come out, we will all learn the truth.
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Mr. Speaker, I did not ask how many investigations there were; I asked why it took him so long to start the investigations.
The Chief of the Defence Staff submitted reports directly to the minister about the transfer of Afghan detainees and the health of those detainees. It took a complaint from an Ottawa professor to force the investigation.
Is the minister incompetent, or is he deliberately misleading the House, as he has done before?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the member's earlier statement where she talks about abuse. There is no proof of abuse at this time. We must wait for the outcome of the investigations.
Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs about the arrangement for the transfer of Afghan detainees several times. Each time, the Minister of National Defence responded with falsehoods that the Conservatives whole-heartedly supported.
How could the Minister of National Defence, who was speaking on behalf of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, tell so many falsehoods about these detainees?
Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of National Defence
Mr. Speaker, this morning in my statement I apologized to the House fully and completely for providing inaccurate information. This inaccurate information was provided in good faith. I have recently learned that the information concerning the monitoring of the Red Cross was not as I understood it. We have taken corrective action in the House to correct the records.
Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Mr. Speaker, how could the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is responsible for international treaties signed by Canada, be guilty of such negligence and go as far as giving his full support to his National Defence colleague, who has misled this House so many times in the past few months?