Debates of April 30th, 2007

Afghanistan

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the government this past week has shown a flagrant disregard for the truth on the detainee issue.

On the question of who is responsible for monitoring detainees: confusion. On the question of whether Canada is funding the human rights commission: disinformation. On whether the commission did have access to the prisons: false claims. On whether a report from our embassy in Afghanistan existed: a cover-up. On whether Correctional Service Canada has actually been monitoring detainees: pure make-believe.

When will the Prime Minister end this mismanagement and dishonesty and get some control over this mission?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think I have already answered that question.

I do not know what the position of the Liberal Party is here. The Liberals have changed their position several times. They said the agreements that we had in 2005 were adequate. Obviously they have not been adequate, because this government has improved those agreements.

We will continue to move forward. The bottom line is that unlike the members opposite we do not automatically assume that any allegations made by the Taliban against Canadian Forces are the unvarnished truth.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, given his reply to the previous question, it is obvious that the Prime Minister agrees with the official opposition that the Minister of National Defence is no longer capable of carrying out his duties. NATO is going to undertake a new offensive, insurgents are attacking our soldiers and the Prime Minister is looking for the right opportunity to get rid of his minister.

Why is the Prime Minister not putting our soldiers ahead of his own interests? Will he immediately fire his incompetent minister?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with the official opposition that the solution is to bring Taliban prisoners to Canada. We are in Afghanistan to prevent the Taliban from having a presence in Canada.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a few days ago, we learned that the Liberal government knew as early as 2002 that torture was common in Afghan prisons. The prime minister at the time decided nevertheless to enter into an agreement to deliver all prisoners captured by Canadian soldiers to the Afghan authorities. If the Liberals had known since 2002 that the Afghan authorities were torturing prisoners, then the Prime Minister must have been informed when he was elected 15 months ago.

How could he let his Minister of National Defence mislead the House by saying that he was not aware that prisoners were being mistreated?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as I just said, we have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. Vague allegations have been made in Afghanistan for a long time. We need specific proof. The commissioner of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission says that he has heard only rumours and that he does not report rumours to the Canadian authorities.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there are serious allegations and therefore risks. We are told that there is no proof. Of course not; there is no investigation. The Afghans are going to be allowed to conduct their own investigation into allegations that they use torture. Reports are written by senior officials. As far as I know, there are no Taliban among the senior officials. Neither the previous government nor this one reads the reports. In my opinion, they prefer not to read them so that they can say they know nothing.

Will all these ludicrous stories stop? Should the government not decide to stop turning prisoners over to the Afghan authorities?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Bloc is talking about general evaluations prepared by officials with the Department of Foreign Affairs. This is not the same thing as specific cases. There are no specific cases. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has informed us that there have not been any specific cases since our new arrangement was put in place. At the same time, the government of Afghanistan has committed to conducting an investigation, and the Government of Canada will assist with that investigation.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, last Monday, the Prime Minister began the week by saying that he was aware of what he calls allegations of torture, but he referred to the February agreement, which did not allow access to detainees. On Wednesday, the Minister of National Defence announced a new agreement with access rights. On Thursday, the Prime Minister prevented him from speaking and said that no such agreement existed. He and his ministers contradicted themselves all week. There is no agreement to ensure compliance with the Geneva convention with respect to the treatment of Afghan detainees.

Will the Prime Minister put an end to this disinformation campaign and assume his responsibilities for ensuring compliance with the Geneva convention?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, our members of the military on the ground take their job very seriously. They will continue to do the good work they are doing and that includes conforming with international law. We believe that things are working very well on the ground.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we must be very careful. The things being said in this House are serious and frustrating. Once again, there are many contradictions and the government is trying to hide the truth. We feel this very deeply. Canada is a signatory to the Geneva convention, yet it is not respecting its obligations under that convention, and as a result, its soldiers are in danger. That is the truth, not a rumour.

Will the Prime Minister negotiate an agreement that protects detainees? Will he put a stop to transfers until such an agreement is negotiated, thereby respecting the Geneva convention?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. I note that the hon. member has herself decided to take the word of Taliban detainees as the gospel truth.

Our members of the military on the ground are doing an exceptional job. They take their work very seriously. They are conforming with international law.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, media reports say that the Government of Canada has known for quite some time that detainees transferred to the Afghan authorities face torture. These are not new reports. The Liberal government was informed of this when the members for Toronto Centre and Markham—Unionville were in charge of the situation.

Why do the minister and the Prime Minister not launch an investigation to find out what is really going on? More importantly, why does the Prime Minister not demand that his minister put an end to prisoner transfers or else resign?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, our information indicates that so far our arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission have been operating as they should.

The government of Afghanistan has made a public commitment to conduct an investigation, and the Government of Canada is prepared to help it in any way possible.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, incredibly, it seems as though the Prime Minister remains in full denial on the situation of detainees in Kandahar. I will ask him about some other detainees.

Since 2003, Canada has been sending warships to the Arabian Sea to participate in the American-led Operation Enduring Freedom. We learn now, due to documents that we have obtained, that the government signed, on October 12, an agreement regarding the transfer of prisoners taken during these operations. We tried to find out what the terms of the agreement are but the Department of National Defence has blackened out all the terms.

Where are the detainees going, Guantanamo?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I have anything to add to this subject at the moment, but I would hardly want today to pass without a rare chance for me to quote Buzz Hargrove on the good work that the Minister of the Environment is doing.

Buzz Hargrove said:

I believe [the minister] tried incredibly hard to find balance between the economy, the concern working people have for their jobs and the environmental concerns that concern every Canadian. I think he took a major step forward today that will deal with some of the environmental concerns that will not throw tens of thousands of Canadians out of work.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in another damaging revelation, we learned today that the government was warned last year about the treatment of detainees handed over to Afghan prisons.

Human Rights Watch wrote to NATO, copying our foreign affairs minister, on November 28, 2006, saying:

We have received credible reports about mistreatment of detainees...in some cases the treatment amounted to torture.

Why did the Conservatives hide this memo for almost five months?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, the real question is why the previous Liberal government, since 2002, chose to ignore reports on Afghanistan. I remind the hon. member that he was a cabinet minister. There were five Afghanistan reports, four of them received by the previous Liberal government, and the Liberals chose to do nothing until the month before Canadians fired them.

We implemented the policy they put in place. We have enhanced the policy. We will continue to do so.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the government was warned and did absolutely nothing. The government has an obligation to thoroughly investigate all allegations of torture and it did not.

Human Rights Watch told the foreign affairs minister to work with NATO to develop a common policy for better monitoring to “investigate allegations of prisoner abuse” and “to publicize the names of detainees”.

Why did the Conservatives cover up what Human Rights Watch was telling them for five months?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. The NATO commander has said that he sees no evidence to back up any of the allegations. There have been general allegations for years, of which the previous Liberal government is aware, and it has taken the Conservative government to not only implement the policy but work to enhance it.

We have a relationship and an agreement with the Afghanistan government and with the Human Rights Commission and we will continue to work very closely with them.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are stunned by revelations that the Conservatives knew five months ago about torture in Afghanistan.

The Minister of Public Safety boasted that there was no need to worry about the 40 detainees in the custody of the NDS, the Afghan secret police. Last November, Human Rights Watch said that the NDS was an irresponsible, abusive institution whose detention centres did not meet international standards. Why did the Minister of Public Safety boast on Friday about turning Canadian prisoners over to the NDS?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that our Correctional Service officers have received an open invitation to visit the site my colleague mentioned. The officers can go and work with the alleged terrorists, and they can also make recommendations.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is pathetic. The government knows that over half the NDS personnel are former KHAD fighters from the Soviet era, notorious killers and torturers who were trained by the KGB.

Human Rights Watch has called on the government to work with NATO to develop a common policy and get involved in all stages of the detention process.

Why has this Conservative government covered this up and ignored the recommendations of Human Rights Watch?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, again we have general allegations. We have yet to receive any specific allegations.

We have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. We believe that these arrangements are working well.

If the government of Afghanistan requests our assistance, we will be pleased to give it to them.

The Environment

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of the Environment's plan is being criticized by everyone here, by the UN climate change representative, Yvo de Boer, and by the former U.S. vice-president, Al Gore, who described the plan as a complete and total fraud designed to mislead the Canadian people.

Does the minister realize that he is fooling no one and that with this plan Canada is far from moving forward, but is going backward; that it will never achieve the Kyoto protocol targets; and that, worse yet, greenhouse gas emissions will continue to increase?