Debates of May 29th, 2007

Fisheries Act, 2007

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member gave a very interesting presentation and a good argument about the concerns of stakeholders and what they would tend to support. He talked about aboriginal groups, environmental groups, fishers and industry. He basically said that there was a lack of consultation. He also indicated some information about environmental groups claiming that the existing laws had not prevented the degrading of the fishery habitats.

Then comes the question about the implications of dealing with this at second reading and what is possible after second reading. There certainly is some latitude but not very much on certain fundamental issues.

One of the examples that I have looked at has to do with the authority of the minister to delegate to DFO officials the granting or refusing of licences. This seems like a significant change of policy. It is a major step in the delegation of authority.

Is the member concerned that these kinds of things could be changed? I suspect the stakeholders will have something to say about it at committee.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the pros and cons of that argument are quite varied, and this is something that would take an awful lot of discussion at committee. The minute the minister designates any of his authority to other people, there would be major problems.

I will take, for example, the seismic testing off the west coast of Cape Breton. DFO's own scientists said that if the precautionary principle was used, then seismic testing should not be used on the west coast of Cape Breton Island because it could harm crab and larvae stocks. There was evidence that it may happen.

At that time the Liberal minister from Halifax West allowed the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board the right to make the final decision on whether that testing should go ahead. We argued the point that it was fish habitat and that it was the minister's sole authority to stop that activity from happening. The minister said no. We allowed that decision to be made somewhere else. The same thing could happen with fisheries licences. In some of these communities, nepotism is extremely rampant.

I also remind my hon. Conservative colleagues that Mr. Bagnall, the fisheries minister for Prince Edward Island, was one of the first people to support the bill prior to reading it. After he read it, he said that he would still support it but he had reservations. Look what happened to that government yesterday in the election.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like further clarification from the member. Is he or is he not in favour of the principle that the new bill would follow, which is the minister would be involved in setting principles for licensing criteria and so on? Once those principles are set, then licensing officers would be obligated by law to follow them, rather than getting involved in the political games that have tended to happen over the last many years.

If it were completely up to the discretion of the minister, does he not think the approach of greater accountability and transparency that is built into Bill C-45 would be a much better system?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, he talks about accountability and transparency, but the bill was never discussed with fishermen prior to its tabling. If he thinks that is the way to go, then why were fishermen not asked for their opinion on those specific issues? The bill was tabled on December 13, 2006, and not one fishing group, to which I spoke across the country, well over 400 different organizations and individuals, was consulted on it prior to its tabling.

With great respect, if the parliamentary secretary thinks that this is the way to go, then fishermen should have decide this, not parliamentarians.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the bill contains the alternative measures agreement from clauses 130 to 143. It basically states that the government would give all corporate polluters a really excellent deal. If these alternative measures are used, then the court must dismiss the charge laid against the alleged offender in respect of that offence. Also, a corporate polluter could admit guilt, but no admission, confession or statement accepting responsibility for a given act or omission made by an alleged offender as a condition of being dealt with by alternate measures would be admissible in evidence against them in any civil or criminal proceedings. Basically, corporate polluters can walk away. A company or an environmental group that wants to sue a corporate polluter is unable to do so and whatever admission it makes cannot be taken into court.

That is grossly unfair because it allows corporate polluters a free hand. Is that fair?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member brings up some valid points. I also remind the government that it talks about habitat protection and what the minister shall, must and might do. However, clause 63 says that the governor in council “may” make regulation for the conservation and protection of fish and fish habitat. The minister might think about it or get around to it.

The word “may” is extremely dangerous. No matter what the minister or the parliamentary secretary states, if the bill goes through the way it is, the governor in council can override that and do something completely different.

We do not believe that fish should get out of the way of other development. We believe that if there are going to be mining or other activities regarding fish habitat, the fish must be protected to the very best of our ability.

Right now fish are stressed in lakes, rivers and oceans across the country. Report after report have stated very seriously the decline of our ocean aquatic species and our lake and river species. They are under threat consistently. What we need is an act that protects the integrity of fish and fish habitat so future generations can have a lively income.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak in this debate on Bill C-45, but in reality we are on the hoist amendment, and I have less pleasure in speaking to this amendment made on February 23 by the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor. I think it has done a disservice to the lives of fishermen and those who are engaged in the debate.

We find ourselves debating a hoist amendment which, if passed, will have a result that is exactly the opposite of what we want to do here. I think we all want to do what the purpose of the act is and that is to strengthen the fisheries and the sustainability of the fisheries. I do not see us getting there with this amendment. We all understand that it is the opposition's role to oppose, even if it does so just for the sake of opposing, but it seems to me that in this case the member has chosen a poor route.

Let me clarify this for some members, because I think there is some confusion on this score, and certainly for those who may be watching. In fact, to an outsider, the member's motion might be construed as relatively benign. After all, how could a further delay of six months hurt? It could hurt the fishery stakeholders a lot if the majority of hon. members vote in favour of the amendment. We are not talking about a delay in proceedings with the amendment. Rather, hon. members would be killing Bill C-45 in its entirety, period. Those are the facts.

How so? It is very important to fully understand what would happen if this amendment should pass. Allow me to quote from the authoritative House of Commons Compendium of parliamentary procedures, which can be found on our parliamentary website:

The hoist is an amendment that may be moved to a motion for the second or third reading of a bill. It requires no notice, may be debated and may not be amended. A hoist amendment requests that a bill not “now“ be read a second time, but instead that second reading be postponed for three or six months.

A hoist amendment must meet a number of requirements. The purpose of the amendment is to neutralize the word “now” in the motion for reading. It must therefore amend the motion by eliminating all of the words following the word “That” and replacing them with the following proposition: “Bill (number and title)--

In this case, it is Bill C-45:

--be not now read a second...time, but that it be read a second...time this day three months (or six months) hence.

I notice that the hon. member has been very careful with the wording of his amendment to meet those requirements. I commend his research staff for getting that part right. However, what we do not notice in his remarks is the following, and I quote again from the Compendium:

The adoption of a hoist amendment is tantamount to defeating the bill by postponing its consideration. Consequently, the bill disappears from the Order Paper and cannot be introduced again, even after the postponement period has elapsed.

Some might say that a better word for a “hoist” amendment would be “hijack” amendment.

I find it very hard to believe that members in good standing would effectively want to defeat the bill without letting it go through the normal parliamentary channels of debate, second reading, committee debate, clause by clause review and so on, all on a purported pretense that not enough consultation has taken place.

Let me turn to that matter of consultation, which has been raised this morning a couple of times already, and the truth of what has or has not taken place in the last number of months and even years.

During the debate on February 23, 2007, the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, as he said again this morning, said that there is this myth of consultation.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that if certain members are suggesting that stakeholders were not asked to comment on the actual text and specific clauses of Bill C-45 before it was tabled, I would say that of course they were not. In fact, it is parliamentary tradition to present the bill to Parliament for its consideration and it is up to Parliament to consult on draft legislation.

However, if we ask if stakeholders were consulted on the principles, themes and common sense ideas contained in Bill C-45, I can only say yes.

Did interested parties, ranging from unions to aboriginal groups, know in advance the broad tenets of the proposed bill? Did they know it would highlight expanded roles for them in decision making? Did they know that a renewed Fisheries Act would more carefully take into account the conservation and protection of fish and fish habitat when fisheries management decisions were made? Did they know that it would provide for greater stability, transparency and predictability in fishery access and allocation?

Of course they did. It was the stakeholders themselves who put these items on the consultation table and implored us to act accordingly.

Veterans of this place should know that work on a new act has been ongoing for a number of years. Indeed, much of the initial consultative work was carried out under the watch of the previous government. We commend the previous government for that and for the incredibly valuable input from the standing committee over the years.

The fact is that Bill C-45 grew out of hundreds of fisheries renewal consultations and information sessions from coast to coast to coast, all designed to build a modern fisheries management regime that meets the challenges of the 21st century. These consultation efforts included: the Atlantic fisheries policy review, the Pacific new directions report, the Pearse-MacRae report on the future of the Pacific salmon fishery, the aboriginal fisheries strategy review, and the environmental process modernization plan, to name just a few.

Therefore, to say that the minister had an extraordinarily strong basis for proposing changes to the act is really an understatement. Bill C-45 reflects most of the significant findings and policy directions stemming from these and other consultation initiatives.

To talk a little about just two of these initiatives is quite illustrative of my point, so let me talk first of all about the Atlantic fisheries policy review. In fact, it was a huge consultation exercise that lasted over five years and much of it informed the provisions that we now find in Bill C-45.

The review was actually initiated in May 1999 to create a framework for managing east coast fisheries and to build consensus around a renewed vision for the fishery. It was a collaborative process with a broad citizen engagement approach through which advice and feedback were continuously sought from fish harvesters, processors and industry representatives, from the governments of the Atlantic provinces, Quebec and Nunavut, from aboriginal groups, community representatives and environmental groups, and from academics and other interested individuals. This is a very high level overview that I have given of a very comprehensive process that has lasted a long time. Therefore, in the interests of time, I would like to table a document listing in detail the consultations undertaken during the Atlantic fisheries policy review.

In February 2001, DFO released a comprehensive discussion document that served as a springboard for public discussion and debate. The department subsequently sought advice and feedback based on the discussion document during in-depth public consultations in 19 communities across the region. Out of that exercise came the Atlantic fisheries policy framework and it reflects the many voices heard during consultations.

In June of the same year, the independent panel on access criteria was established to review and make recommendations on access criteria for providing new or additional access in increasing Atlantic commercial fisheries. The panel sought input from industry, the Atlantic provinces, Quebec, Nunavut and aboriginal organizations and released its report in April 2002.

The minister of the day responded to the IPAC report in November 2002 and adopted the new access framework to guide all decisions on new or additional access to Atlantic commercial fisheries that have undergone substantial increases in resource abundance or landed value.

DFO has begun implementation of some of the key strategies of the policy framework that I have mentioned. However, it is only through a modernized fisheries act, which we have here before us in Bill C-45, that we can provide the tools and authorities to both DFO and industry to make significant strides in our achieving of the vision in these two policy documents. Here is how.

The objectives of the Atlantic fisheries policy framework address the major fisheries management challenges. They include: threats to conservation, excess participation and impediments to economic viability, ineffectiveness of top-down management, uncertainty in access and allocation, and closed decision making processes.

Legislative proposals in Bill C-45 directly address these fisheries management challenges through a number of specific proposals within the bill. They include provisions concerning conservation and sustainable use, self-reliance and collaboration, shared stewardship, and stable and transparent access and allocation.

However, consultations have also taken place with environmental and conservation NGOs. In fact, the environmental conservation and habitat protection provisions found in Bill C-45 were equally informed by the process with non-fishery stakeholders, as I have mentioned, so I think it would be useful to touch upon NGO engagement in what is known as the environmental process modernization plan, or EPMP. It is an engagement that actually connects the dots back to Bill C-45.

Building on the results of an earlier national habitat blueprint initiative, DFO launched the EPMP in early 2004. It was aimed at making the habitat management program more effective in the conservation and protection of fish and fish habitat, more efficient in the delivery of its services to Canadians, and more integrated with the interests and priorities of partners and stakeholders.

Shortly after launching the EPMP, 13 national or regional conservation and environmental NGOs were invited to a consultation meeting held on June 15, 2004. All participants expressed support for the direction that DFO was taking on the EPMP and made a number of suggestions on how they could help. In September 2004 eight NGOs agreed to establish a steering committee to identify common areas of interest and priorities for fish habitat management and the development of an agreement.

Throughout 2005 and 2006 the steering committee held numerous meetings, prepared discussion papers, and organized and conducted a national workshop. The purpose was to confirm areas of common interest, to set short, medium and long term priorities, and to establish objectives to be addressed through an agreement expected to be signed in 2007.

On October 12, 2005 the department held a session with environmental NGOs on the EPMP and Fisheries Act renewal. The meeting took place in Ottawa and via webcast across the country.

In April 2006 DFO wrote to the Canadian Environmental Network and several prominent ENGOs proposing that a joint committee be established to organize a major national workshop on these and related matters. The joint committee was established and a workshop was held in October 2006 with 25 conservation and environmental NGO representatives from across Canada, the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, an observer from the Assembly of First Nations, and staff from DFO's regional offices and national headquarters.

Among other things, and I stress this, the workshop discussed renewal of the Fisheries Act. Following the workshop, an ENGO delegation met with staff from the minister's office and senior DFO officials. The workshop provided a sound base for establishing an important dialogue on habitat management with ENGOs and has resulted in the establishment of a national fish habitat management coordinating committee to pursue its recommendations.

Further, throughout 2006, DFO regional and headquarters staff held sessions on the modernization plans and Fisheries Act renewal across Canada, with municipalities, industry associations, aboriginal groups, federal government departments, provincial agencies, consultants, associations of professionals, community and voluntary groups, and NGOs.

I know that I have gone into what some members might consider tedious detail on such endeavours to outline just how significant and comprehensive the consultation process has been. It is equally clear that broader based consultations have been just as rigorous.

As I reiterated in the debate held on February 23 in this place, between August 2005 and December 2006, DFO officials met over 300 different Canadian stakeholder groups to discuss the modernization initiative. They represented a very substantial cross-section of first nations interests, recreational and commercial fishers and processors, natural resource industries, ENGOs and the public.

Following meetings with provincial and territorial fisheries and aquaculture ministers in March and May 2006, it was evident that there was a strong desire from our provincial and territorial partners to push for changes to the Fisheries Act. As we have said many times already, it is 138 or 139 years old.

Then, at a meeting of the Canadian Council of Fisheries and Aquaculture Ministers in Yellowknife in October 2006, we were urged to introduce changes to the Fisheries Act that would foster enhanced federal, provincial and territorial collaboration and help promote a stable, transparent and predictable decision making environment. So much for the consultation myth.

Further, it is not as if the consultation process ended with the introduction of the bill. Following the tabling of the bill, DFO sent thousands of letters to stakeholders and provided over 100 detailed information sessions to a vast number of groups to help them understand the parliamentary process, details of the bill and how they could provide input. The department has also met with almost all the provinces and territories to provide technical briefings.

DFO headquarters, as well as regional offices, either held telephone conferences or met with about 125 key stakeholders within 48 hours of tabling. These stakeholders included the commercial fishing industry, the recreational fishing industry, ENGOs, resource industries, aboriginal groups, other federal government departments, as well as representatives from provincial and territorial governments. The department continues to hold follow-up information sessions.

The minister himself sent out over 1,000 letters to stakeholders in mid-December, including about half to first nation and aboriginal groups, alerting them to the fact that the bill was tabled and where to find it. Canadians across the country are making their views known now by communicating with their MPs, their minister, myself, the media and so on, which is exactly how the democratic process should work.

In short, we took and are taking extraordinary steps to engage our stakeholders and seek their input into the policy directions on the new legislation.

If the process should be allowed to go forward, formal consultation on Bill C-45 will take place through the parliamentary process. The standing committee may invite individuals and representatives of organizations who have an interest in the legislation to provide comments either in writing or by personal appearance. The public will also have an opportunity for input as the bill goes through a similar process in the Senate.

Once the bill becomes law, stakeholders and anyone who has an interest in the issue will have a further opportunity to provide input and offer views of how the various sections of this legislation should be made operational, that is, through the regulations. This will be done through a transparent and open process.

Under the renewed Fisheries Act, the commitment to encourage the participation of Canadians in the making of decisions that affect the management of the fisheries and the conservation or protection of fish or fish habitat will be a principle that the minister and every person engaged in the administration of the new act will take into account.

In addition to the ongoing engagement of stakeholders, this principle will be made a reality through general power for the minister to establish advisory panels for a wide variety of purposes. We find that in the bill.

Finally, stakeholders now have had more than four months to digest the information and few have indicated that there are elements of the bill that surprise them. They may disagree with some of the details on how certain sections are worded but there is no new policy change in the bill that has not been heard or seen before. Therefore, we strongly believe that it is now up to the parliamentary committee to consult on the wording of the bill after second reading.

Do we pretend that the bill is perfect? Of course not. However, we believe that it is as close to perfect that six years of consultation and compromise will allow.

If this amendment goes through, resulting in the killing of Bill C-45, then the tens of thousands of hours of consultation with stakeholders that have taken place under our watch and under the watch of the previous government will have gone on for nothing. I cannot imagine anything more disrespectful to those stakeholders, not to mention the whole notion of parliamentary procedure, process and democracy.

It is time to move forward now. Fishery stakeholders cannot afford to wait any longer. The fishery has changed, the industry has changed and resource users have changed. The current act no longer gets the job done and Bill C-45 would.

I encourage all hon. members to not let this hoist amendment become a hijack amendment. What is on the line here are six years of intense consultations and the time and trust of stakeholders.

What is ultimately at stake here? Nothing less than the lives and livelihoods of countless thousands of Canadians, as well as the critical measures in the bill that would help preserve and protect our precious rivers, streams and ocean waters.

If we let Bill C-45 die on the order paper, who can predict when another version of the bill will see the light of day? It is time to move forward now. Fishery stakeholders cannot afford to wait any longer and we want to get the job done.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the member obviously has his bureaucratic notes to read, which is what he is paid to do, but, as I said in my discussion today, the reality is that I asked for the list of the people they consulted with before, not after, the tabling of the bill, and I am still waiting for that list.

If what the hon. member is saying is true, and I will take him at his word, then he should provide this House with a list of all the individuals and groups that were consulted on a new fisheries act prior to December 13, 2006.

I do not think Shawn A-in-chut Atleo, head of the B.C. First Nations people, lied to me when he said that he was not consulted. I do not think Phil Morlock, head of the Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association representing a $7 billion industry, lied to me when he said that he was not consulted. When I asked members of the Maritime Fishermen's Union, with the minister present, if they were consulted before the bill was tabled, I do not think they lied to me when they did not put up their hands.

Somewhere along the way someone is not telling the truth. If there were consultations on the bill prior to December 13, then I would ask the parliamentary secretary to table the list in this House right now so we can cross-check and double-check.

Also, the member said, incorrectly, that the hoist amendment would kill the bill. That is simply not true. What the hon. member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor asked is that we take the bill, go to the fishing groups that he talks about and consult with them, get the changes to the bill that we want to see before second reading, bring it to the committee and then, hopefully, we will be able to unanimously support the minister in his efforts for a new modern fisheries act.

The one correct thing the member said is that we need a new fisheries act but it should not be done by bureaucrats from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, an organization that is definitely not trustworthy, although there are good people working there, because of its history on fish and fish management. The reality is that we in the committee would like to work with the government to get a new act that really meets the needs of fishermen and their families.

What the parliamentary secretary is really saying or not saying is that there is an opportunity, if the bill goes to committee after second reading, to have consultations across the country. However, what may happen is that the bill may die in committee if we do not get the amendments we like.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I hardly know what to say. The member just needs to get better facts. Maybe his party needs a bigger budget or something but it needs to get better information on this.

A hoist amendment is based on parliamentary tradition in that we either had a hoist amendment for three months because we were nearing the end of a session or for six months because sessions only lasted about six months in those days. It was a way to get a piece of legislation out of the way but it is not a way to bring consultation, and that is very clear.

I am sure the department would be glad to provide the member or anyone else who wants a list of those sessions that provided input for the bill. We have had this discussion before. If the member thinks that we have the right as parliamentarians or as a department of government to write a bill and then to take it and go around to every fishery stakeholder group or aboriginal group and ask them what they think of it, that is not how it works and he should know that.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, if there were active and proper consultations, even discussions with fishermen and their families and the organizations across the country prior to the tabling of the bill on December 13, 2006, I would like to see the list. I have asked, quite clearly, for this list in writing. I have asked the department and I have asked in committee for the list of the people who were consulted on the new fisheries act prior to its tabling.

The hon. member from British Columbia should have no problem standing now and tabling the document in the House of Commons because there are many other aspects to this. We did not even get into the Larocque decision but that is a discussion for another day.

I fundamentally disagree with the parliamentary secretary when he says that the hoist amendment would kill the bill. What would kill the bill is when it goes to committee where we have consultations with fishermen and then try to move amendments that are not accepted because of the laws of Parliament. That would be a terrific waste of our time, the fishermen's time and the resources of this Parliament.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member spoke earlier about members of the Maritime Fishermen's Union. He should go back to them and ask them if they were involved, for example, in the Atlantic fisheries policy review.

Those stakeholders, in a variety of consultation sessions, were the ones who told us how they thought the fisheries should work. They told us what kind of regime they thought would make the fisheries more productive, sustainable, stable and all of those things that all fishery stakeholders want. Those suggestions now form the basis of the bill.

If the member somehow thinks that this fisheries bill was dreamed up by bureaucrats sitting in a room without going around and talking to anybody, then he is sadly mistaken.

If the member is able to get past the consultation issue, are there things in the bill that he does not like and which he thinks cannot be changed? Everything I have heard him say that he thinks needs to be changed, the information we have received is that these changes can easily be made at committee.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, in listening to the exchange between the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore and my colleague, it amazes me how the NDP member, during the first few months that we were talking about the bill, went around saying that we were going to give away the fish and privatize it. The people in the field educated him when he would not listen to us that it was not the intent at all. In fact, we said here in the House that we were more than willing to use the exact wording in the bill that the courts used.

The member talked about no consultation. I think the last time a change was made was back in the days of Bernard Valcourt, a good Conservative fisheries minister, and nothing has been done minuscularly ever since.

Consultations have been held since a new bill was attempted to be introduced in the House by then Minister Crosbie at the time. Ever since then for 15 years consultations have been held across the country on ways to improve the act demanded by the people in the field.

Consequently, saying that no consultations have been held, of course not on the act, nor on the bill. We are not allowed to go out with the bill, as the member well knows but has not learned yet.

On top of that, he talked about the fact that we cannot make amendments as we moved forward. Of course we can. We just need to look at the clean air act or the Federal Accountability Act to see all the amendments that can be made. Some amendments need to be made and we will make some because of the demand from the field.

The hoist motion would kill the bill. We cannot take the bill out around the country and the member has been here long enough to know the difference. Maybe my colleague would like to comment on that.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is right. Those who have been around this place for a long time, like you, Mr. Speaker, know that it is a fairly recent procedure to allow a bill to go to committee after first reading and before second reading.

What did we do for over 100 when we needed to make changes to bills? We did it in the normal parliamentary process. We got it as right as we could, took it to committee and then we made those changes, just the same way that the committee will with this bill when it passes at second reading.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to speak a little bit about my riding and the problems I have with Bill C-45.

My riding is Sydney--Victoria in Cape Breton. It is substantially a large riding and fisheries is a big industry in my riding. I have what I call two bookend harbours: Pleasant Bay at one end of my riding and at the other end of my riding is New Waterford. There are approximately 300 kilometres of coastline between those two communities and probably 30 communities that rely on the fishery. Those 30 communities along with the fishers are a substantial amount and probably close to 1,000 families rely directly on the fishery.

In those communities we have fish plant workers, people selling supplies to the fishers, truckers, buyers, and even the tourist industry hinges on our fisheries industry in my riding and in Cape Breton. Many people come to Cape Breton Island to see the fishing communities. There are almost $100 million worth of products sold in Cape Breton. This is why the fishing industry is important and why we have to be careful with this bill.

The Liberal Party is not against changes to the Fisheries Act. The act is over 138 years old. The previous minister of fisheries from the Liberal Party said he instigated some changes to the act. He made it very clear in 2005 that he wanted the committee to do a proper job with an assessment of the fishery. He also wanted to make sure that the fishers and all the stakeholders were properly consulted. Problems arise today as they did in the spring of 2007 because consultations were not done. We had no choice but to decide that we had to hoist the bill. That was hoisted, as many know, on February 23.

On the home front, my colleague from Cape Breton—Canso and I received many calls over the winter about the concerns that the fishers were having and what was going to happen. We hosted a town hall meeting in Sydney River which is pretty well in the middle of our two ridings. We had a great turnout for that winter meeting. April 12 is still winter on Cape Breton Island. We had over a hundred fishers and they were very concerned. They were also very upset. They were overwhelmingly against Bill C-45. There was a lot of opposition to the bill.

The people were very concerned about the bill and wanted it shelved. Our constituents at that meeting were very satisfied with what we did in February by hoisting the bill. The people wanted more consultation.

We were told that fisheries and oceans did not include how the fishermen would be impacted with this new act. A new fisheries act would place too much power in the bureaucracy and many fishermen felt the act was already dysfunctional. They were not comfortable with this bill at all from their previous experience.

The fishermen pointed out that the wording in clauses dealing with the transfer of licences was too vague. Fishermen need some assurances that the act will not take away the value of their licence. Sometimes that is all they have at the end of the day is the value of their licence. Many fishermen had no trust in DFO. This is largely a result of this ill-conceived legislation.

I do not want to get off the topic too much, but time and time again we see how this Conservative government puts bills forward in the House. When good bills are put forward and the committee does its work, the government squashes it. I have seen this with Bill C-278.

I will not go into the problems we had with the previous government and dealing with bills. I want to stick to the facts, especially about the meeting we had in Cape Breton on April 12. Many of the people in that room also thought there needed to be changes.

One very eloquent spokesperson for a lot of the fishers, especially the crab fishers, was Josephine Burke-Kennedy. She stated at the meeting that she worried about what the bill would say about transferring licences, as I previously mentioned. She said that in time she wanted her son to be able to take over his father's licence if he wanted to and not have interference. She also took issue with the proposed bill's lack of clarity with trust agreements and the right of the department to refuse a licence based on suspicion in the licence transfer.

This is a very legitimate concern. She spoke on behalf of most of the people at that meeting. They wanted to make sure that fishers have a right to fish. They should also be allowed to sell their licence to whomever they want to. The fisheries minister has no right to take the quota away from anybody.

The new bill has impact. Fishers are concerned about their licences being taken up by large corporations. We can say that they should not fear that, but they do.

Now is not the time for consultation. As many of my colleagues from Atlantic Canada, and even those from the west coast realize, this time of the year many fishers get up at 4 o'clock in the morning and they are lucky to be done before 5 o'clock in the evening. They really have no time for consulting now. They are in a stressful situation and it is dangerous, but they have to make their money in a few months. Now is not the time of course. The time will be in the fall.

We agree that the Fisheries Act needs to be changed because it is over 100 years old.

A lot of things have changed in the fishery over the last 20 years. The fish population has changed dramatically, especially on the Atlantic coast where there used to be a lot of groundfish, but as a result of overfishing and the use of draggers that has changed.

As a result of the diminishing cod stock, which is a predator to shellfish, there is a lot more shellfish in our region, which is good. We want to administer that and regulate it properly because it is the fishing industry's salvation. The window is short when a fisher is in the shellfish business because he probably has to make his money in two months.

A lot of fishers go out west to work in the oil patch in between seasons in order to make ends meet. The business is not as good as people perceive it to be. It is a risky business; prices go up and down. One thing is for sure though and that is that the fishers have a licence. They believe they should keep their licence and it should retain value.

Let us look at the act a bit because it is not all bad. The new act would give fishers a greater say in their quotas and a greater say in conservation. Conservation is one of the key points for fishers involved with maintaining and dealing with the habitat of the fish stocks. This is a good part of the act. We agree that all is not bad here.

The tribunal system has been mentioned here many times today, and that really makes fishers nervous. Who is really going to have a say in dealing with the fish stocks? Who is going to have a say with respect to their fish licence? Are they just going to bring in some person? Fishers have a really major concern with that.

If that is not bad enough, provincial ministers are having a problem with the bill, and that really makes fishing communities nervous. This tribunal is probably one of the biggest concerns because fishers do not understand what the repercussions are going to be. There is too much uncertainty out there now.

There are some good things in the bill, but there are some major problems with it. The Fisheries Act is over 100 years old. Let us stop and think about what we should be doing. Why do we not take another year? Why does the committee not bring this up in the fall, make it a priority? The committee could bring in stakeholders from all around and get to the bottom of it. The committee could talk to fishermen throughout winter. We could have a good piece of legislation for next spring. There is nothing wrong with that. Everybody is comfortable with that. People are still going to fish this year. People are still going to have the same livelihood. Communities will still prosper when the fishing is good. Why not wait a year? That is the whole point here.

We are concerned about the rush job that is happening here. We are concerned about the economy in Atlantic Canada. These communities drive our economy. Whether it is a car dealership or teachers who teach kids, everybody has a connection in our communities.

I think that at the end of the day fishers and fish families want to be more in charge of their destiny. They want to have more say. They want to have a say in who is going to be on these tribunals. They want to have a say on how their stocks are going to be managed so they will continue to have a livelihood many years down the road.

Fishers definitely want their licence because it is a main value to have. Many times when a fisher retires he still owes some money on his boat; he still owes some money on his gear. A fishers licence is value and it is a value he wants to pass on. It is very important.

As members know, my hon. colleague from Cape Breton—Canso and I did our due diligence. We had a meeting in Sydney River and the people spoke. The fishers spoke to us and they told us to get back here and shelve this thing until proper consultations were done, they have a say and are comfortable with it, because we hope this new act can last another 100 years and be an act for the future of our fishing industry.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague knows, the name Josephine Kennedy comes up now and then, a good woman from Cape Breton who represents a fair number of fishermen in the Cape Breton and Nova Scotia area.

This is an individual who cares about one thing and one thing only: the livelihood of fishermen and their families in these small coastal communities in Nova Scotia. She has said exactly what the hon. member has said, that what we want is that strategic pause. We want a chance to seriously look at this bill and what it means for them, their families, their communities and their futures.

They have already had this since December. It is almost June and they do not like what they see.

I would remind the Minister of Fisheries that he talked about consultations on Bill C-30. That was the clean air act which we in the NDP took to a committee before second reading, rewrote it and brought it back, so the minister may want to correct himself on that one.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague from Sydney—Victoria a question. Does he think that it should be the fishermen, their families and their communities from coast to coast to coast, especially those first nations individuals in Cape Breton and others right across the country, who should have a say? They are the ones who should write the act. They are the ones who should come before us and say, “Here is how we want to see the fish habitat protected. Here is how we want to see the fish managed for our future, because we are the ones who do the fishing”.

Does he not believe that it should be up to them, in a parliamentary democracy, to tell us that they want to see and how their lives should be managed in the future?

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore for his comments and his vision for the industry.

He is a member of the fisheries committee, as are many members sitting here today and they do a good job. The committee does a great job and the members do a lot of hard work. They go across the country consulting and that is very key. That should be a priority this fall, as soon as the House comes back. That is when the committee should start talking to fishing families and groups right across the country and get a proper assessment of where it should go.

What is one year? We should do this properly. We want to make this bulletproof. We want this act to be flexible enough for the fishing communities and flexible enough for our changes of habitat. This is what we want. We want the ownership in their hands.

There is a big mistrust out there and it is a shame. I have not seen it in other departments as with the fishers and the bureaucracies. It should not happen. They should be working together. The bureaucracy should be collecting the data and presenting it to the fishers. They should be working together, and that is the way they want it, but this bill seems to skate away from that.

The hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore is well aware, because he visits us once in a while in Cape Breton, that Cape Breton is the same as many other communities, whether in Newfoundland or throughout the Maritimes and the west coast.

This is a great opportunity. If we do this bill right, it is a great opportunity for our communities. It is a great opportunity for the fisheries committee. It could also be a great opportunity for the minister, whoever that may be, to come to this House with some proper legislation that everybody can live with and is good for the future of the fishers.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member talk about his riding and some of the concerns, similar to my own area. I appreciate all that. I listened to him talk about the concerns people have about the act. I agree with that. I also heard him mention that provincial ministers had expressed concern. I remind him that the ministers from British Columbia, Yukon, Nunavut, Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island have all publicly supported the act and have asked him and others to get on with the job for which they came here.

Imagine taking any piece of legislation, going around the country and consulting with everybody who wants to have a say in it. We would never get anything done. The member and I were elected to come here to deal with legislation.

We have had consultations for 139 years on this very act. Since 1992, 15 years, we have had all kinds of consultations. For the 13 years, the member's party was in power. It did not have the intestinal fortitude to introduce a solid piece of legislation. We need changes. He has agreed that there are a lot of good things. Let us get them in here and change the few minuscule things that he says need to be changed.

I agree we can make changes, but I have yet to have anybody, including the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, explain to me any part of the bill which cannot be clarified and explained to his or anybody else's satisfaction. It is just a charade, playing games and trying to hoist, which is what members opposite have done, a good initiative. Let us move it on to committee where the members can really do a job if they are serious.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if there was a question there.

The minister talks about all the provincial ministers, but the PEI people have chosen. They have shown what kind of confidence they have in the Conservative government of PEI. Maybe that is why the Conservative governments are having problems in these provinces, because they are rubber stamping what is happening here.

I wish the minister had been in Sydney River on April 12 at the town hall meeting. Maybe sometimes the best thing for a minister and some of the bureaucracy is to go to town hall meetings and listen to the people, listen to their concerns and fears. They are the people. If the government does not listen to them, the people will speak again.

It is very simple. Bring it before the committee. Let the committee do its work. That would be the simple way to do it. The committees are here for that. The committee should talk to the fishermen over the winter and then next spring have some proper legislation with which everybody can agree. If the Conservatives drive it through now and people are not comfortable with it, they will not buy into it. Then we will have more problems on the wharf.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, not many people in the House know or realize that next year will be my 35th anniversary of being a commercial fisherman. I have the unique opportunity of fishing in the inland fishery, right in the middle of Canada.

We talk about licences, tenure and the value that is there. I am a second generation fisherman. The business has been in our family for 55 years. We have very little tenure and protection.

I want to ask the member about what he sees and feels. He touched on it briefly. When we shake the hands of the fishermen, we feel how hard they work and how tough it can be on them.

How does he feel when he looks into their eyes? Fishermen feel they will be run down this road by the government that does not want consultation, consultation in a time when it can actually be done.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have to apologize. I should have mentioned, because it is very important, our inland fisheries and our recreation fishers. They will be greatly impacted by the bill.

What I saw in their eyes was concern and fear. They are looking at their MPs and saying that we have a big opportunity to make right things happen for them and for the next generations.

At a lot of town hall meetings, we saw two generations. It could be a guy who started in a little dory and built up a business. He might be 70 or 75 years old. His son and his grandson are there. They are all thinking, what about the next generations? Will there be something there? They are looking at us and telling us to stop for one minute and bring this back to the table.

It is amazing how knowledgeable the fishers are about how the committee works. The fisheries committee came to their communities. They have a lot of faith in it. They want it to go back to committee and then they would like their representatives to make presentations and travel the country.

I have never heard a fisher yet say to me “Let us get it done now. Push it through”. Fishers want to wait a year. They want to have proper consultation. They entrust us as MPs to do that. They are proud that we have hoisted it and we are pushing it forward to do the proper consultation.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join in the debate today. I think anybody following it can certainly see the theme that is running through it and the concern that is being expressed by the opposition parties today. We are not at odds with the principles or with the understanding that we have to modernize the Fisheries Act. It is the way the government has approached this. It has been wrong-minded and we are here to help.

I think people do not have a great deal of confidence in being told that someone is from the government and is there to help. That is what we want to do with this legislation.

A number of the speakers referred to the work of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. My friend and colleague, the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, is the longest serving member of that committee, and I guess I would be the second. Over the last seven years, I have been on and off that committee.

I have sat on about eight different committees in the House and I am very confident in saying that the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans would be the least partisan. All members work every day. At each meeting and on each issue we undertake, we work in the best interests of those in the fishery. Members from the west coast are just as interested and as knowledgeable about the issues that impact on the people of Atlantic Canada and the members from Atlantic Canada understand a lot of the challenges faced by those in the fishery on the west coast.

It was mentioned in the House before that my colleague worked on 26 different studies done by the committee over his time and 22 of them were presented unanimously. All members on the committee supported those reports going forward.

We just completed a fairly extensive study on the concerns around sealing. It was a unanimous report. We went to Newfoundland and were out on the ice in the southern gulf. We witnessed it and stood together, shoulder to shoulder. When we come and stand behind the minister now, that gives the minister's position even greater strength. Canada and the House speak with a unified voice.

I think there is an opportunity and a willingness to do that with this legislation. The principles are not out of whack, but there is so much concern. My colleague from Sydney—Victoria has mentioned some of the concerns we have.

I am concerned myself. I know in the last Parliament the previous fisheries and oceans minister had corresponded with the standing committee and requested it undertake a full and complete study so when legislation was presented, there would be a body of information from which we could draw on in order to develop the legislation for a new fisheries act.

The steering committee of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans agreed to go forward with it, but the then opposition critic, the current Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, changed his mind, and the study died. He did not want to go forward with a study on the new fisheries act so we pursued another issue.

It was mentioned already in this debate that our colleague, the member for Delta—Richmond East, a commercial fisherman, probably one of the most knowledgeable members in the House on the commercial fishery, is no longer on the committee because he voiced his concern over aspects of the new fisheries act. He was removed from the committee. That is a great disservice not only to the government, but also to the people in the industry from coast to coast to coast.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans said that we were opposing this just for the sake of opposing. That is not what is going on. We approve of many of these things, and I will talk about some of them.

Going forward, we approve so much of this in principle. A number of the ministers in the past government had tried to advance the new Fisheries Act and ran into some opposition, but in principle I think we can come out of this with a much better act should we bring this to committee prior to second reading.

A number of groups have approached us in opposition. Anybody opposed to government legislation were the first to be notified. As my colleague from Sydney—Victoria mentioned, we hosted a round of meetings within the constituency. We met with a group in Sydney River not that long ago and the concerns were broad and deep.

I spoke with a group of fishermen in Canso just last week, representatives of the Guysborough County Inshore Fishermen's Association. Although they supported it, there were still a number of reservations that they wanted to register with me. It is deep.

I want to read from correspondence from the Atlantic Salmon Federation, which has done incredible work for decades on the salmon fishery. I know the minister would like to put himself out as a great supporter of Atlantic salmon. With the release of the Atlantic salmon endowment fund, it now can go forward. When we were in government, we established a $30 million fund that would go toward a number of community initiatives to support Atlantic salmon.

It is funny that when the $30 million were being peeled out and allocated to the endowment fund, the current Minister of Fisheries and Oceans voted against that budget. In fact, he had not supported Atlantic salmon at all. I know when he was ready to receive requests for funding and made that announcement, he pretty much separated his shoulders, patting himself on the back for all the great work that he did on Atlantic salmon. We know that is not the truth.

I know the Atlantic Salmon Federation has registered its concerns about this legislation. I will read from the correspondence. It states, “The Atlantic Salmon Federation is requesting that Bill C-45 be withdrawn and that a meaningful consultation process be put in place that allows the public the time to study changes that are being proposed in the Fisheries Act and provide considered input to the act”.

We understand the importance of Atlantic salmon in our recreational fisheries. We know the price per pound for salmon commercially, but recreationally it is over $300 per pound. When we talk about anglers going into a community, staying overnight or whatever, it is a very substantive component of our tourism industry. For them to voice their concern, the minister has to sit up and take notice.

We have received a great number of interventions by environmental groups. A couple of the members from the NDP had cited a few before. They are calling for us right away to withdraw Bill C-45. These include the Alberta Wilderness Association, BC Federation of Fly Fishers, BC Nature, Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, Fisheries Recovery Action Committee and Georgia Strait Alliance. These are freshwater fisheries as well as east and west coast fisheries. Other groups are Watershed Watch Salmon Society, Yukon Conservation Society, the David Suzuki Foundation, Sierra Club and Ecology Action Centre. These groups say that the new act has no teeth to protect fish or fish habitat.

It does get a resounding endorsement from the Canadian Mining Association. I think that if I were a fisher and the only endorsement I could really hold in the window was from the Canadian Mining Association that would offer me a little concern.

What we have been getting from the government throughout this is the following: “Leave it with us. Trust us. We're going to look after this. It's not a problem. Don't be scared. We're okay. We're cool with that because we're going to look after it. We're going to look after the best interests of the fishers of this country.”

We have seen what has happened when we leave that trust in the hands of this government. We know how well the government supported its promise on income trusts. As for the Atlantic accord, where the greatest fraud was “a promise not kept”, we know that promise was not kept with regard to the Atlantic accord. We know that deal was torn up and thrown away. We can ask the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and the people of Nova Scotia how much faith they have in this government keeping its word.

I see it personally, too, from people in my riding, people such as Joyce Carter. She is a great lady, a beautiful lady, and the widow of a second world war vet, who was promised by the then leader of the opposition, our current Prime Minister, that the veterans independence program was going to be instituted as soon as the Conservative government took power. We know where that promise went as well. It was just thrown away.

There is no trust in the fishing community that the government can deliver on what it said, which was that the fishing community should leave it with the government and it would look after them. There is no trust there. I think we saw that last night with the election results in Prince Edward Island.

I have just one final point on this, which is about the hilarity of last week and the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development. The students of this country, the young people of this country, left their trust with the government and we saw how 80% of the student funding that was there last year no longer exists. We saw that millions were peeled out of the student summer job placement fund. We saw community groups that for decades have sponsored work opportunities for summer students in this country left stranded and out in the cold.

However, that minister stood here and said that everything was fine, everything was wonderful, and that we could look at the groups that got funding. He said there were five groups in my riding that got funding. If I had asked him seven more questions, and he gave me five groups, that would have covered the entire number of grants issued in my riding. But the minister said that everything was fine, everything was wonderful.

That has to be the playbook of this government.

There is a Conservative candidate in my riding who said the other day said that this new round of funding for the students is just typical second-round funding. There was never any second-round funding, but if the truth does not fit, let us make up an answer. That seems to be the modus operandi for this government, but people are not buying it.

With regard to the act, we have heard a number of great concerns. What we heard from the fishermen and what I have been hearing from the fishermen over the last while is with regard to the position on trust agreements. With DFO, under a past minister, we have just gone through a whole redevelopment of a crab plan in Cape Breton and the Eastern Shore. One of the rulings that came out was that some of the temporary access holders were forced by DFO, by the government of the time, to move toward trust agreements. In order to qualify for a licence, they were to band together and make a trust agreement. It was about two years ago that this provision came forward.

Now we are being told by the government that trust agreements are no more, that trust agreements will not be recognized and we have seven years to get out of them, but all trust agreements are not bad. There are people in the industry who would never have had an opportunity to get into the industry if it were not for trust agreements.

There should be some type of grandfathering. There is now so much uncertainty with regard to what is going on around the trust agreements. I know that we do not want big corporations holding the lion's share of quota allocations. That is not what we want for the industry. We believe in an independent industry.

All trust agreements are not bad. We need more consultation on the trust agreements. We have to find out what is right, what works, and what is best for the industry, and that is done through consultation. We must show the fishers some respect. Let us consult with the fishers.

It is the same for access to capital. My colleague from West Nova talked about that as well. I think that sort of spills right over to the trust agreements.

On B class lobster licence holders, we do not know where they are going to land after the new act comes out.

On tribunals, my colleague from the city of Victoria registered some concerns about the tribunals, so this is where the discussion takes place because I do not think the tribunals are going to be a bad thing.

There is a concern that there is no appeal after a tribunal decision is made, but I think that if we give tribunals the power to address violations in the Fisheries Act, it would make it more expedient. We know that there are people out there who abuse their privileges. They are caught the first, the second and the third time. There are abuses within the fishery, but they are minor.

The number of fishers who abuse their privileges is minor, I would think, but there has to be some kind of recourse. I think these tribunals certainly would be well positioned. I think they would make it a little more expedient. They would cut down on the wait times. They would take some pressure off the courts. However, I believe there should still be some type of appeal process. I hope that we can address this through the committee and through interventions with the committee.

The minister talked about the transfer of responsibility to the provinces. He listed a number of provinces that support this in principle. I really question where the provinces are coming from on this because I would be concerned. I know that the opposition members in those provinces are expressing concern.

Is this more downloading on the provinces, with increased responsibility? If the government is looking at an increased responsibility for provinces in habitat and in enforcement in these particular areas, we see no sign in the estimates of any transfer of money over to the provinces. Where are the provinces going to get the money to deliver on these additional responsibilities? I do not see that in the legislation.

I would think that a little bit of the spillover, as referenced earlier, is in the outcome in P.E.I. There is a fairly substantive fishing community around P.E.I., and I would think that a little bit of the spillover there lies in the lap of the fisheries minister and the federal government in trying to ram this down the throats of the fishers in this country and certainly the fishers in P.E.I. I am concerned about the transfer of those responsibilities to the provinces and the provinces' ability to execute on those responsibilities.

The cost of science has not been mentioned here so far today. I do not think it has been addressed. I think the cost of science and where we are going with the science is going to be a substantive aspect of where the fishery is going in the future, coming out of the Larocque decision. What we are hearing from fishermen, the guys who go out and harvest the resource, is that they are pretty much fed up with it. They bought into this. They know that in order to have a successful and sustainable industry science has to be the basis.

As I have only a minute left, I will try to wrap up with this. We have put so much on the backs of the fishermen. We have expected so much. They bought into it in that the allocations would go toward a portion of paying for the science, but it seems to be the slippery slope. More and more allocation is going toward science. We know now through the Larocque decision that this is not going to hold water any longer. Where are the moneys for that?

I think we should be playing a greater role in helping our fishermen with the provision of science, but I think that has to be addressed through the committee and committee hearings. We would like to see the bill go to committee prior to second reading, so that when we go forward the principles could be maintained, but we could have a fisheries act that serves this industry in a much better way.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his comments and for his good work on the fisheries committee as well.

To begin, I wanted to bring to his attention clause 23 of Bill C-45, the new Fisheries Act, which states:

The Governor in Council may delegate, subject to any conditions that the delegation specifies, any or all of the powers conferred on the Minister by sections 15 to 18 or by Parts 1 and 3, or by the regulations made under any of those sections or those Parts, to a minister of a provincial government responsible for fisheries.

The bill specifically mentions Parts 1 and 3. Part 2 of the act, as he will know when he refreshes his memory on this, is the part about habitat, pollution prevention, conservation and so on. That part in the new act cannot be delegated to the provinces, so he should be less concerned about that.

My main question for the member is about something that is still not clear to me. It should be clear by now, because there have been a number of speakers from his party, but it is not. Where we are at this point is that we have had a second reading motion. We have begun debate at second reading on Bill C-45. That was interrupted by a hoist amendment. We are now debating the hoist amendment. It is still not clear to me what those members think we should be doing with this.

If the amendment passes, the bill is dead. If the amendment is defeated, we go forward and we decide what to do at second reading on Bill C-45. The member seems to think the bill should get into committee. Is the member saying we should pass or not pass this hoist amendment? Then what should we do? Should we vote on Bill C-45? Because the bill can get into committee only if this amendment is defeated and the second reading motion is passed.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the parliamentary secretary's question because I think what has come out in the debate today is that there are different opinions and perspectives on just what can be done. We believe that if we support the hoist amendment and if then we were to engage the standing committee to go forward with its study we would have some real consultation.

I know that the member has made reference throughout the debate to the fact that ample consultation has been done. That is not our sense at all. It is not the sense of several others who have spoken here today about the consultation myth. Sasquatch is a myth, the Loch Ness monster is a myth, and that is what this consultation is. The member talks about having had consultation, but nobody has really seen it. Last month we had a meeting of a hundred fishermen and two of them said they got some kind of a questionnaire. That was the extent of the consultation among a group of about a hundred.

The member asks me what we can do. If we support this hoist amendment and then go and engage the committee and come forward with a solid package of information and something substantive that can go toward the legislation, that is our understanding of what can happen.

I think that probably this being committee business between the members here that we should have officials from the Table and the Clerk's office sit down with us. What concerns us is that when I look at things such as what we can do, even the minister himself today referred to the clean air act. We know that the clean air act went to committee before second reading. That was clarified by my colleague from Sackville—Eastern Shore.

We understand that all that can be done is that the bill can be tweaked and that is it. We want to hoist the bill and let the work of the committee be done. Then we can put forward some legislation that is going to be positive and will serve the fishery.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it was quite evident by the minister's comments that to bring an bill of this nature before fishermen and their families is simply not on. I simply could not believe that the Minister of Fisheries, who is responsible for the protection of fish and fish habitat, would not allow proper consultative input from fishermen prior to the tabling of a bill, or even after second reading.

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans asked what he would like to see that could not be done after second reading. Allow me to give him a classic example.

First of all, the 1997 Supreme Court decision of Comeau's Sea Foods Ltd. v. Canada should be verbatim in the preamble.

As well, clause 37(1) of the bill states:

For any species of fish that is not managed by a province, the Minister may by order, with respect to any area that the order specifies and subject to any condition that the order specifies, allocate any combination of quantities or shares of the fish that may be fished among any groups or communities that the order specifies--

This means that if the bill goes through the way it is, the minister could designate fish to anybody he or she deemed likely. We would like to see something in the preamble of the bill to prevent that from happening. The parliamentary secretary can take note of this, bring it to the lawyers and see if we are right or wrong. We would like to see something of this nature stated, “Nothing in the act or the amendments made by the act shall be construed to require a reallocation or re-evaluation of individual quota shares, processor quota shares, cooperative programs or any other programs, including sector allocations”.

I would like to have the hon. member's comments on it, because we do not want to see fish transferred from one area to another on the whim of the minister.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Sackville—Eastern Shore has brought up a very important point. How much latitude does the committee have to make changes following second reading?

We saw it here in the House with the replacement worker legislation that was brought forward by the Bloc. My hon. colleague from Davenport put forward some fairly substantive amendments which, when they came to the House, were ruled out of order by the Speaker.

My sense is that anything substantive, anything that we deem necessary, would not be changeable should this not go to committee prior to second reading.

I believe my colleague's concerns are valid. We need some clarification if that is not true, because for the parliamentary secretary to say that is not the way it is and to trust the government, that trust is not there.