Debates of April 10th, 2008

Motions in amendment

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join the debate this afternoon on Bill C-33. For Canadians who are watching or who might read Hansard at some point in the future, this bill is a technical amendment to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act to simply allow a government, the present government or any subsequent government, to regulate, for example, the ethanol content in our fuels, to help in setting standards for the export of Canadian fuels that are blended, and so on and so forth. At first blush, it is a technical amendment.

I would like to respond to the member for Western Arctic's proposed amendment and pick up on some of the comments he made in his speech. He said that the testimony at committee was, in his own words, in vain, that many experts had testified in vain. I disagree. I disagree because the text of the bill already embraces the need for a review of the language of the bill every two years, a “comprehensive review of the environmental and economic aspects of biofuel production in Canada” that would be undertaken by the Senate, the House or a combination thereof.

What he is now calling for is something entirely different, but it appears as if the review that is already going to be performed under this act, once it becomes law, would embrace much of what he is seeking to get in, to a certain extent, through the back door today, that which was not presented at committee some time ago. I would say it is a moot point. I would say that the amendment he put forward today is not necessary because I believe the regulatory standards will be reviewed as a function of the comprehensive review of the environmental and economic aspects of biofuel production at some later date.

That is my opening statement on the merits of this particular amendment put forward by the NDP and the member who is speaking on the NDP's behalf.

I would like to now make a couple of more generalized remarks about the bill, which is about expanding the scope of the Minister of the Environment, not the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food but the Minister of the Environment, to regulate fuels in Canada.

I would like to talk about the government's 5% ethanol standard. I would like to talk about the government's excise tax exemption changes brought in on April 1, which have a direct bearing on this question, and about how this does not quite fit in to the government's climate change plan, a plan which is supported by no third party in Canada today.

First, the official opposition leader has been calling for a 10% ethanol position since last January. In a speech to Saskatchewan farmers in Regina, he asked for an increase to 10%, but it had already been put forward in our own election documentation of 2006 calling for a 5% ethanol content. There is a significant difference here between 5% and 10%. The government is proposing 5%, but we are still supportive of 10%. Why is that?

First of all, for every car on the road today, car owners can use a 10% ethanol content in the engines of their vehicles. There is no need to retrofit the engine as it is presently built. We know that if we had a 10% mandate in Canada as opposed to the weaker 5% put forward by the government, it would double the amount required to some four billion litres a year. That is a figure that is already surpassed in terms of those plants that are presently operating, under construction and even those being financed.

When the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and his parliamentary secretary or members of the government talk about supporting our farming community, one has to ask the question, why is the government pursuing such an unambitious target of 5%?

In late June, in fact, the former minister of agriculture labelled the official opposition leader's call for 10% as overly aggressive, which the Canadian Report on Fuel Ethanol described as an excessive term in itself. Ontario, the largest provincial gasoline market in the country, is already moving from an existing annual average, E5, to 10% starting in 2010.

Why is the federal government lagging behind the province that consumes the largest amount of gasoline in the country? There is no explanation so far which is a question that I have raised before.

Speaking now quickly to some of the environmental implications and considerations that ought to be paramount with what we are trying to accomplish here, there are all kinds of important questions around the environmental impact, for that matter even social justice questions, when it comes to the expanded use of ethanol in Canadian and worldwide markets.

In this, I think, the member from the NDP is quite correct. Those are precisely the questions that we see and envisage being treated and dealt with by the Senate committee and/or the House of Commons committee that will review the performance of the country every two years as the bill contemplates.

However, here is another angle and I would like to conclude on this. That is the incoherence between the government's purported 5% ethanol content regulation and what it is actually doing when it comes to the taxation policy for these very fuels.

On April 1 the government repealed the excise tax exemption for biodiesel and ethanol fuels. We know the effect of the repeal on low level blends is small, maybe even minimal, but we know the additional taxes are substantial for higher blends. The price of what they call E50 for example will increase by 2¢, for E85 it will increase dramatically to 8.5¢ a litre higher than it is, hardly making the fuel competitive.

This is at a time when we are trying to kickstart the fuel market and lend the added hand to our farming community if it is done in an environmental and responsible way. We only have 31 vehicle models today on the road in the Canadian market that can use E85 as we speak, but there are only 2 E85 retail fuel stations in this country compared to 1,250 in the United States.

Therefore, we have incoherence here between the government's purported claim to support our agricultural farming communities, which is a very important initiative, with its own fiscal and tax policies. They are leading to higher costs for this fuel and do not necessarily reflect, as we heard in the original speeches here in the House and at committee from the government members, the profound environmental considerations that are inherent in making a shift to a wider use of a specific fuel.

I go back to where I began on why it is so important that we have built into the bill a two year review of the economic and environmental performance across the country as to how we are doing as a country.

We are not Brazil. We are not transforming vast amounts of tropical forests into for example eucalyptus plantations or sugar cane plantations where it is obviously having profound environmental impacts on ecological integrity of those regions and of course ultimately the lungs of the planet. We are not in that kind of situation. Our concerns are different, yet just as important.

As we go forward with this bill, I find it hard to understand why the NDP would at the very last moment seek to bring through I guess the back door of the House that which it did not bring to the committee. I also cannot reconcile at all the amendment put forward by the member with the call already inherent in the bill to have this two year review on the economic and environmental implications, not that his concerns are not important, not that they are not valid, not that they should not be treated and dealt with but I think they will be dealt with precisely at that period of time, 24 months after the bill becomes law.

Twenty-four months later we will have a much better idea of where we stand and I think that will allow us to make mid-course corrections as a country as we go forward and deal with this particular fuel source.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member across the way for his comments. I want to touch back on this review. A review of policy is fine when we are dealing with things that we can change easily.

What is going to happen here with the industry is that it will move ahead in a certain fashion. The industry will make investments. Farmers are going to line up land and change their agricultural practices. There will be many things that go ahead once we put this bill in place, once the regulations are in place, and once the subsidies go on.

A review two years from now may be at the start of an industry. It may be when industry has just made major investments and it is not going to be a great time to decide that we have made the wrong decision here, made the wrong choices or moved in the wrong direction. The time to decide what the right direction is, is before we start.

That is why quite clearly my colleague on the agriculture committee brought forward many recommendations. I spoke to this issue when it was in Parliament before. We are saying it again to the hon. member across the way, do you really think that a review two years from now is going to--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. The hon. member for Western Arctic should ask questions of the hon. member and not of the Speaker. He should be saying “does he think” rather than “do you think”.

The hon. member for Ottawa South.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when we talk about a review, I do not see any material difference between what we are contemplating here and, for example, the five-year mandatory review that is built into the Canadian Environmental Protection Act as a whole. That is something that was just completed at committee, which delivered up I think profound recommendations for change and improvements and enhancements to improve CEPA and how it is, for example, operationalized in the Canadian context. That is my first response.

Second, it is true that choices will be made. Investment decisions will be made. I have every confidence in the free market in Canada. I have every confidence in farmers. I have every confidence in investors and in companies that are going to be following this emerging market very carefully.

They know that investing in cellulosic ethanol, for example, and making a quantum leap into those kinds of feedstocks to generate the cellulosic ethanol is probably going to be a wiser and more intelligent investment than not.

It may take some transition time in some parts of the country. We know that cellulosic ethanol has much less impact in terms of GHGs and on the atmosphere as a whole.

I do have confidence that people will begin by beginning. They will start by starting and they will invest and they will build this sector. In 24 months, I think, we will be able to make a mid-course correction shot. We will examine it and we will make improvements.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the hon. member. I have worked with the member on the committee before, so I understand his passion for the environment, much like my own and much like this government's. Indeed, I know he is happy that this government has moved forward with the estimated 5% renewable fuel standard in Canada because it would obviously equal somewhere in the neighbourhood of a four megatonne reduction in net GHG emissions which is great news for Canadians. That is actually equivalent to 1 million cars taken off the road.

The member mentioned that we are not aggressive enough on this side of the House. I would argue that point. I would ask him specifically this. The fuel industry has indicated that indeed these are aggressive targets and they can be met by the dates that we have set, but there is an issue of capacity in the distribution of infrastructure for this upgraded capacity. How does he see that we would meet these additional requirements, if indeed as his leader has suggested we have this additional target of an increased percentage in the fuels themselves even though we do not have the distribution capacity at this stage to do so?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do not agree that it is a distribution problem. I do not believe that it is strictly a distribution problem. I think there are a few things that the government should keep in mind.

First, why is it that Ontario, that represents 47% of the Canadian economy, has made the quantum leap to 10% by 2010? Why is it that Ontario can do it but the federal government cannot?

Perhaps the government could bring in a coherent policy that did not, on the one hand, remove the excise tax exemptions to actually help kickstart the sector while bringing in an inferior standard of 5%. Perhaps we could actually have more coherence between fiscal, agricultural and environmental policy. After all, it is the government that has, I am told, some kind of cabinet committee that is trying to reconcile energy, environmental and financial considerations.

Clearly, I do not think that this policy has been put through that gauntlet. I do not think that we have seen, here, this kind of baby given birth to really reflect the need, in the way that our leader of the opposition speaks about all the time, to really integrate environmental, social and economic considerations.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, to address the amendment proposed by the NDP. First of all, it is an amendment to Bill C-33, a bill intended to provide for the efficient regulation of fuels. This bill would amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999.

The amendment reads as follows:

That Bill C-33, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 13 on page 3 with the following: “Canada, including a review of the progress made in the preparation and implementation of the regulations referred to in subsection 140(1), should be undertaken by such commit-”.

This amendment is meant to improve a clause added by the committee. This addition specifies that a thorough analysis of the environmental and economic aspects of biofuel production in Canada should include an analysis of any progress made regarding the regulations developed and enacted by the governor in council. This will allow for a more thorough assessment of the impact of biofuel production and the enforcement of the related regulations.

Today we had a fine example of that in this House. The leader of the Bloc Québécois opened question period with a question on the famine that is occurring throughout the world because grains, a basic food source, are becoming increasingly less available to certain people. This is connected to the current production of corn and other grains in the world that are not being used for human consumption. We are using the soil and cultivation to produce ethanol.

We can, and rightfully so, ask the government to increase its humanitarian aid to 0.7% of its gross domestic product. However, it is still illogical for the government to be presenting programs to convert cereal crops to ethanol, when people around the world are dying of hunger because they do not have enough grains. I was listening to the Liberals earlier. They want ethanol production to increase.

One of the advantages of this amendment is that it will have us look at other existing technologies. We have cellulosic ethanol, for which we can use fibre, agricultural and wood waste to produce ethanol. There has not been enough research yet to release this product on the market, but the product exists.

We need to find ways to solve the problems we are causing by producing ethanol from grains. We have to find a way of doing this. I understand that, because it promotes producing oil from the oil sands, the Conservative government is trying to ease its conscience by producing ethanol, but if ethanol production is creating a world famine, then it is not a better option. Parties have to stop setting short-term political goals in order to get elected. We have to try to save the planet and, above all, protect the peoples living on the planet.

One way to do this would be to make an amendment that would provide for a review of the environmental and economic aspects of production. That would enable us to examine all the new technologies and change direction while there is still time. While we are setting ethanol production targets to gradually reduce our dependence on oil, we could choose the right type of ethanol to produce, cellulosic ethanol, which would come from agricultural and wood waste, instead of ethanol from grains. We saw this today. Around the world, the media are reporting a grain famine. Grains often form the basis for people's diets. They are the basic foods for survival.

That is why members will not be surprised that the Bloc Québécois is in favour of this motion. This is the direction the Bloc Québécois wants to take in committee.

When discussions on the production of ethanol are held, we must focus on cellulosic ethanol, increase budgets for research and development, and think more about stopping the use of ethanol made from grain crops. Instead of using crop land, we should use forestry and agricultural waste. These fibres could be used to produce ethanol in a way that does not harm the production of grain, which often forms the basis for feeding humanity.

We will be in favour of this amendment. In committee, the Bloc Québécois will defend the interests of Quebeckers. We are the only party in this House that defends the interests of Quebeckers. At the same time, it is clear that Quebeckers do not want anyone to go hungry, but do not want to sacrifice energy production. This needs to be done using waste instead of crops.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my Bloc Québécois colleague. I would like to ask him a very simple question. He says that he is in favour of the motion by the member for Western Arctic that refers to a review of the progress made in the preparation and implementation of the regulations referred to in subsection 140(1). I do not understand his reasoning. I do not understand the difference between what is proposed here in the motion and what is already provided for in the bill, which says:

—every two years thereafter, a comprehensive review of the environmental and economic aspects of biofuel production in Canada should be undertaken by such committee of the Senate, of the House of Commons or of both Houses of Parliament as may be designated or established by the Senate or the House of Commons, or by both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, for that purpose.

I do not understand exactly how this motion would change what is already provided for in clause 8 on page 3 of the bill. In my opinion, it is clear that this is already covered. Every two years, there will be a review of exactly what should be reviewed.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question, which he answered himself. The amendment proposes that the review take place immediately, rather than after two years. I have been trying for some time to explain that we are helping to create a world famine with the way we produce ethanol. We must therefore not wait two years before looking at the economic and environmental impacts of what we are doing now. We must conduct a review immediately.

It is simple. We will maintain that position. You will understand that the Bloc Québécois, in committee, will want to refocus ethanol production immediately on cellulosic ethanol rather than grain ethanol, which uses a portion of the world's food supply to produce energy. We need to conduct a review right away, not after two years.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on Bill C-33, An Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, and on the amendment put forward by the NDP.

As I said earlier, I do not see why the amendment is necessary. There is already a review in the act and I think the amendment is redundant. Many of the aspects of what the NDP is trying to do through the amendment are already covered by the review process established in the bill.

The bill gives the authority to allow for the efficient regulation of fuels. In so doing, it does open up opportunities for the biofuel industries in quite a number of areas, especially for ethanol and biodiesel.

With the bill in place it should give some confidence to investors to put up the kind of capital required to build plant capacity for the refining of those fuels. As we all know, without that assurance in terms of industry being willing to invest, there will not be a market for the products coming from the farms, be it corn for ethanol or, in my neighbourhood, new varieties of canola for biodiesel.

This is also a benefit to our environment by utilizing these fuels and therefore producing fewer greenhouse gases. The evidence is certainly in on that area.

I realize, though, that there is some controversy. As I said earlier, I do not think there is any question that in the next decade for sure, and probably beyond, there is going to be a constant debate between the linkages and the conflicts between food policy, energy policy and environmental policy. We need to be at the forefront of that debate.

We hear it and I am sure you hear it, Mr. Speaker. There is the whole debate about whether we should be using what could be called a food product to fuel SUVs. There have to be other policies in concert with this one to try to limit the wasteful use of fuels that is adding to greenhouse gases. There has to be a lot done in that area as well.

One such area is the whole area of transportation policy. I raised a question with the Minister of Transport the other day, who basically ignored my question. My question was on the government doing a costing review following the study by the Canadian Wheat Board and the Canadian Federation of Agriculture that showed the railways are gouging primary producers in this country by $175 million. That cannot be allowed.

I would suggest that the government needs to act in that area, because we know that rail transportation is a lot more efficient than road transportation in its use of energy. What we have seen taking place with the railways, beyond their excessive profits, is a major thrust over the last several years in terms of tearing up branch lines. I certainly remember, and I know you will, Mr. Speaker, that just 15 years ago Canada had about the best rail infrastructure in the world in terms of branch lines moving out into communities.

However, the railways in their wisdom decided they would go to two major lines and tear up those branch lines. As a result, there is damage being done to rural communities, to the availability of farmers to ship on those lines. Now there is much trucking on highways, which uses more fuel down those highways. It is really a transfer of the infrastructure cost back to the provinces and to producers.

Although this is a debate on ethanol, it all ties together. We need to be reducing greenhouse gases and the government of the day needs to be challenging the railways on their excess profits and doing a costing review of what they are doing by tearing up railways and reducing infrastructure for the use of communities and producers in our country.

The government should go beyond this bill in providing regulatory authority to allow biofuels and ethanol and go to other areas as well. It should show some concern about the environment by taking other means to reduce greenhouse gases. One of those is to challenge the railways on their destruction of infrastructure to gain more profits for themselves and to heck with the rest of the country.

The bill and the regulatory authority changes would open up some opportunities for the agricultural community. There is no question that is direly needed. As the minister himself has said, close to three billion litres of renewable fuels will be needed annually to meet the requirements of these regulations.

That kind of expansion will represent an economic opportunity, we hope, for grains and oilseeds producers. It will be a new market for Canadian producers. We in fact are seeing that in my province of Prince Edward Island, not so much in the ethanol area but in the biodiesel area. A cold pressed canola operation is now in place with quite a number of canola acres that will go in this spring. This will help the environment in a number of ways. It will give us an alternative crop with which to rotate other crops. It will move us away from our dependence on the potato crop as the major economic generator and therefore we would have less erosion, less use of nitrogen fertilizers and less silting of rivers as a result of growing that alternative crop.

As we go down this road, although it is not all tied into this bill, it is important for the government to also expand funds in R and D and look at cellulosic ethanol and the use of wood byproducts and waste. They might even be able to use it out west for the damage done by the pine beetles. There are many other areas with regard to the whole idea of producing biofuels where we can take what is now seen as waste in many areas, or excess production, and use it in a positive way.

I am nearing the end of my time, but I understand where the NDP are trying to go with the proposed amendment. However, I firmly believe the review aspects already in the bill will cover those members' desire. The review of the economic aspects and the environmental impact will take place as already designed in the bill. Yes, we need to do that. We need to understand what is happening.

We also need to ensure the bill does not just set up a situation where cheap ethanol is floated up the St. Lawrence River and into Canada and also that cheap corn from the United States does not come into this country, undermining our pricing structure and being produced through Canadian plants.

We have to ensure this remains an opportunity for Canadians, especially Canadian farmers, in a way to reduce greenhouse gases in Canada as a whole.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Before I proceed to questions and comments, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Gatineau, Official Languages.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my learned colleague has demonstrated his expertise in the area of agriculture and today gave us an indication of his insights into developing economic innovations.

Could I get his comments, especially from an agriculture perspective, with respect to what is happening in the biofuel industry and the implications for agriculture, international affairs and the automobile industry?

My colleague is aware of the numbers the government side tried to put forward and that every time there is a 10% increase in the number of automobile owners in India and in China alone, there will be an additional 200 million cars on the roads requiring some kind of fuel. I know he is aware of those figures. He is aware as well that the international demand for energy consumption is flowing into what we are talking about today, and that is biofuel, biomass and the demand on agriculture production worldwide.

My colleague talked about the production of cheap corn in the United States and what happens not only in the United States, but everywhere else. For example, Nebraska is dedicating an additional one million acres for the production of corn dedicated to ethanol production. It is already producing some one billion gallons of ethanol on an annual basis. Four hundred and fifty plants are scheduled to go into production this year in the United States alone.

With these kinds of pressures, does he not believe that the price on agricultural products, specifically food products, will continually escalate upward and that farmers will be protected by the increased demand that takes place not only in North America, but worldwide and has already hit critical and urgent proportions in Europe today?

I ask him to think about that for a moment while he reflects on the fact that South Africa is already considered the Middle East of the biofuel industry. It has already dedicated over one billion acres of land to the production of biomass for biofuel production. Brazil, India and Indonesia are dedicating literally tens of millions of acres of land that would normally go to feeding the world's hungry, and we are all going to be hungry. There is greater demand in those parts of the world, a demand that reflects back on our obligations for food aid and world commitments that we have already made.

My colleague knows—

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

I am sorry, but I have to give the member for Malpeque some time to answer.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, we have had a cheap food policy in our country and in North America for much too long. It is one of the things that has led us here. There certainly is a huge desire by the farm community to see these new markets open up.

The hon. member makes a valid point in terms of some of the cautions of which we have to be aware. I said in my opening remarks that three policies are going to collide, food policy, energy policy and environmental policy. We have to be aware of those. We have to be conscious of them. That is part of the reason for the review as well.

In the agricultural sector, I point out that the upward pressure and the price of grains and oilseeds is also causing tremendous problems in the agricultural community itself, especially with our rising dollar and other factors. These very same products that are going into ethanol are the feed stream for hogs, beef, poultry, chicken, dairy and so on. It is causing a cost price squeeze on farmers who are producing these commodities.

As China and India come on stream, beyond the energy use of increasing automobiles on the road, there will be the increasing demand for meat and other protein foods. This is the reality of the world that—

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. One very brief comment and response, the hon. member for Saskatoon—Wanuskewin.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite comes from Prince Edward Island. Not a lot of wheat, barley or such things are grown there.

Would he be advocating that wheat and barley straw, for purposes of the bill before us, be put under the Canadian Wheat Board, yes or no?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker—

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

I know the member for Malpeque is anxious to answer the question, but he could at least allow the Chair to recognize him first.

The hon. member for Malpeque.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the reality is we grow the best potatoes in the country in Prince Edward Island, that is for sure.

I have always advocated a national grains board. The Wheat Board is even more important with the ethanol production now because it maximizes returns back to primary producers. It is so sad the government is only interested in the profits of the multinationals rather than defending the rights of producers.

In terms of straw, we would like to see it used as biomass production for ethanol, not just allow it to go to waste. Yes, it is needed sometimes for organic matter, but it could also be used for the production of ethanol itself.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have to say at the outset that I did enjoy the speech by the member for Malpeque. He made some valid points and certainly laid out in a fairly clear fashion the complications that exist in this bill and this initiative going forward.

It is not a simple piece of public business. It is very complicated. We really do need to pay close attention to it and make sure we put in place all the necessary checks and balances so that we monitor and assess as we go forward and minimize the negative impact of this seemingly very positive initiative by government and industry.

I want to say right off the bat that I am certainly standing in support of, and am going to actually speak to, the amendment put forward by my colleague from Western Arctic. Earlier I was pleased to hear the Bloc also joining us in putting in place this further check and balance on this rather large and, I would guess as it rolls out, very impactful piece of business that will take us in a new direction and open up some avenues and opportunities, but which on the other hand will create some real difficulties for some folks.

I do not think we really know what all those difficulties will be yet. I do not think we have been able to quantify the impact. As was said by the member for Malpeque and the member for Western Arctic, who spoke earlier, we have not been able to quantify the impact on our food policy: security of food for all people, the cost of food, and the sustainability of our farm and agricultural industries.

I also do not think we understand the impact it is going to have on both energy and the environment. When the whole concept and idea of biofuel was first put out there, everybody was gangbusters to come on board to support it, but in some jurisdictions, particularly across the border, we are seeing that it in fact is not the elixir that everybody thought it was perhaps going to be.

I think it is really important to have this in the bill. My colleagues participated in the evaluation and the process of amendment in looking at this bill when it came before the committee after second reading. They made a number of amendments that were not accepted, so I think it was only the rightful duty of the member for Western Arctic to take this opportunity yet again.

This amendment was found to be in order and it is an amendment that will give us an earlier opportunity to see what is going on. If it is not in the best interest of the public out there, which is what we are about here, protecting the interest of the public and putting forward good public policy that benefits the most people, we need to have the opportunity to actually take a look at it.

I have served in public office for 18 years now, first at the provincial level and now at the federal level, and there are many people in this House who have been around for a long time. We understand that oftentimes the devil is the in the details. When moving large pieces of legislation that have widespread impact out there, we really need to pay attention to the regulations. It is in the regulations where we find the real meat in these kinds of bills and initiatives.

We have to be concerned when, holus-bolus, the development of regulations is turned over to the government, a government, I have to say, that is lobbied and that speaks regularly with the large corporations and multinationals out there. It runs up some red flags for a lot of people. Somebody has to be there to speak out loudly and clearly on behalf of the smaller entities that can get caught in the crunch or be bulldozed or rolled over in these instances.

What we are asking for is really not a big deal. As the government rolls out its regulations, which will be the highway down which the new initiative will go, we are asking that this be brought back to the committee to be reviewed so we can see that it turns out to be all that it was hoped to be in the first place. I think this is a good move. It is a smart move. It is in the public interest to do it. I commend the member for Western Arctic for doing the work necessary to bring it forward and have it accepted.

In the last number of years, particularly when I was in the provincial realm, we looked at biofuels, but we were looking at products that were not in the food stream and could be grown on farmers' fields, or at waste that could be gathered in forests and in the varied territory that exists across the country. That could be gathered and used. Perhaps it could be turned into oil, chips or different types of fuel sources and used to provide energy that would heat our homes. Wood pellets are used in some parts of Canada to heat homes and buildings in a very progressive and environmentally friendly way.

In my area, a very important and good debate was initiated by a local maker of particleboard when he said we should just hang on for a second. He said we would be taking his raw material, for which he pays good money and which he uses to make products. That creates jobs in the area and contributes to the local economy. He said we would be taking it to start making energy out of it. He asked what he would do then and said we were robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak.

This is the kind of impact that a good idea can have sometimes when we do not look at all of the ramifications. If we simply allow this kind of public policy to roll out without an opportunity to look at it as it develops through regulation, we may end up at the end of the day missing somebody, not hearing from somebody, or witnessing an outcome that we did not expect to happen in the first place.

Everything in this new venture that we are into now, where energy, fuel, new fuels, biofuels and the environment are concerned, is very interconnected and complicated. It requires the close attention of all of us in this place, who have been elected to give leadership and to be responsible for what will happen in those realms, particularly where energy and food are concerned.

Yes, I am concerned that this will drive up the price of food. We hear from across the way, particularly from the Liberals, that they want to move away from a cheap food policy. I do not know exactly where the line is there and who we are talking about when we talk about cheap food. Anybody who knows of the work I do around here knows that I have a great passion on the poverty front in regard to trying to make sure that all people who live in Canada and in fact around the world are able to feed themselves and their families.

What we may see as cheap food and cheap food policy may be quite different from what the people in a neighbourhood in downtown Toronto, let us say, might consider cheap food or expensive food. I am not arguing for one or the other. I am just saying that we really need to be careful about how we do this, because it is already having and will continue to have a huge impact on the whole food supply system.

We have heard from across the way that the Americans are moving lock, stock, and barrel with great energy, investment and enthusiasm in this direction. The facts actually tell a different story, certainly in some sectors of the U.S. I have a press release that came out on February 28,2008, not all that long ago. It states, “The ethanol boom is running out of gas as corn prices spike”.

The article states:

Cargill announces it's scrapping plans for a $200 million ethanol plant near Topeka, Kan. A judge approves the bankruptcy sale of an unfinished ethanol plant in Canton, Ill. And that was just Tuesday. Indeed, plans for as many as 50 new ethanol plants have been shelved in recent months, as Wall Street pulls back from this sector, says Paul Ho, a Credit Suisse investment banker specializing in alternative energy. Financing for new ethanol plants, Ho says,“ has been shut down”.

So is the government going to get into the financing of some of these things in a big way? Are we going to find out, if we do not have access to some of what is going on, that in two years, when we actually get to this review, the government has spent a ton of money and is now in a place where some of these plants are not economically viable any more because of the impact they are having in other ways?

I also want to share with members the fact that there is another article, this one in the Edmonton Journal, entitled “Green gold or fool's gold”. I think we have to be really careful about this. We are not saying that we should not move forward. Biofuel makes a lot of sense in many ways, but it is fraught with landmines.

That is why I stand shoulder to shoulder with the Bloc to support the amendment by my colleague from Western Arctic. I am supporting him and inviting the Liberals in particular to join us in making sure that we put yet another other check and balance in place so that we do not end up in the same place as some of these American firms.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my friend speaking about how some of the laws passed by this Parliament should be reviewed, or at least that is what this amendment says. If we kept doing that, we would never get anything done, because we would just be revisiting things we have passed already. That is why ministers are given powers to pass regulations pursuant to certain acts. This just lays down the parameters under which the regulations can be made.

The member made reference to the United States and some of the problems with regard to ethanol. That is why the states are going to cellulosic, or cellulose based, ethanol and that is exactly some of what this government is investing in. It is cellulosic ethanol. That is what is happening in northern Ontario.

He mentioned particleboard using chips and said that somehow we may be diverting wood products from the forest industry because that is what particleboard is made from. That is what oriented strand board is made from. However, we know that our forestry industry is in trouble, and one of the things celluosic ethanol will do is add another value added product to our forestry industry. Instead of being a negative for people who work in the forestry industry, it is going to be a positive.

I heard mention of Brazil. I was reading an article recently with regard to Brazil's economic situation. One thing bringing it out of some economic hardship is that it is not relying on very expensive hydrocarbons, very expensive petroleum products. That is the very reason it is coming out of that economic hardship. A few years ago Brazil was having difficulty making enough vehicles to run on ethanol, but it made an economic decision to move away from petroleum to ethanol, which is bringing up that country's standard of living. It is not a negative but a positive.

Europe is moving to biodiesel. It is not concentrating on ethanol necessarily and there is a good reason for that. It does not have the kind of agricultural base that we in North America have in order to support it, but what it does is buy a heck of a lot of canola oil from Canada. Canola is driving some of the economy in the west.

I just cannot understand this. There is everything positive about the bill. I suspect there is something sinister about the amendment that the NDP members want to bring in. They probably know they are never going to form government so this is--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order. The member has used up half the time for questions and comments so maybe we could give the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie some time to respond.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am told that cellulosic ethanol has not been proven to be economically viable yet. It will be like the road that the folks who got into ethanol in the first place have found, in that it is fraught with difficulties that they are now trying to chase. This speaks to the issue in front of us here today, which is that we have to be really careful and cautious.

The member spoke of Brazil. I am told as well that Brazil is into ethanol fuel, but at the expense of the rainforests. Is that what we want?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, I want to comment on my colleague's speech because he touched on the issue that there are many uses for biomass product. In fact, a paper that was presented to the agricultural committee showed that if one wanted to get a better greenhouse gas reduction at a lower cost, it would be much simpler to make up straw pellets or wood pellets and put them into existing thermal situations than it is to create either cellulosic ethanol or just corn ethanol. The return is much greater.

There are a lot of unanswered questions even about the nature of biomass energy within this country. I would recommend that hon. members take a look at the study that was done by a Canadian company. Samson was the primary researcher on it from Quebec. It lays out very clearly what the issues are around the use of wood products or any other organic product in reducing CO₂ emissions.

When you talk about the nature of the interaction between wood pellet development in northern Ontario and the use of pulp in the industry, could you elaborate on that issue a bit more?

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Order, please. I asked the member for Western Arctic earlier not to put questions directly to members but to do it in the third person and he is doing it again.

The hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie, very briefly.