Debates of April 14th, 2008

Afghanistan

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when the House renewed the Afghan mission, it was on the explicit condition that the government would be more open about the mission and about detainee transfers. Late on Friday, when the government thought no one would notice, it began challenging the jurisdiction of this commission.

The point is the government did not challenge the commission's jurisdiction for over a year and the question is, why has it suddenly begun to do so now? What is it about the detainee issue that makes it impossible for the government to tell the truth?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, the truth is that there have been over 17 technical briefings. There have been 20-odd appearances before committee. There have been two debates in the House of Commons which resulted in a vote, something the previous government never did with respect to the Afghanistan mission. With respect to the particular issue that the Military Police Complaints Commission is looking at, this subject matter of a public hearing only was voiced last month, not a year ago. The member should get his truth in order before he starts throwing stones.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if that is the answer, then the House would want to know what he has against public hearings. I simply do not understand the answer that the minister has offered.

Again, on March 13, in this House, the Minister of National Defence said, “We are in compliance. We will continue to cooperate with the commission. We fully intend to.” I fear the minister misled the House.

What is happening now? What do they have to hide in this detainee affair?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, to be clear, I will repeat that we are not challenging the general mandate of the Military Police Complaints Commission. It is this specific subject matter.

There are three separate investigations going on. There have been volumes of information turned over by the Department of National Defence. It is the mandate with respect to operations going on in Afghanistan with respect to today that we are suggesting is outside the mandate, and we will have a judicial ruling on that in the near future.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs suggested that the Karzai government replace the governor of Kandahar, mainly because of the corruption in that region of Afghanistan. This statement by the minister is especially surprising given that the Government of Canada has been telling us for months that major progress has been made in Afghanistan and ministers have boasted about the work this governor has done.

Why did the government conceal this situation during the debates on extending the mission beyond 2009?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, as I have already said, Afghanistan is a sovereign country that makes its own decisions about government appointments. Our main goal is to promote Afghanistan's self-sufficiency in all aspects of its nationhood, including development, security and governance.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is all well and good, but we heard the Minister of Foreign Affairs on television, just like we saw him handing out Jos Louis. This time, he made a more serious mistake than he did with the Jos Louis. The minister should not just tell us any old story. The government has told us plenty of stories here and has hidden the truth from us, just as General Hillier hid the truth.

Is this not one more reason to leave Afghanistan in 2009, because the time has come to stop playing fast and loose with the truth?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, I understand that the leader of the Bloc Québécois has problems with the concept of sovereignty, but we believe that Afghanistan is a sovereign country that makes it own decisions about government appointments.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, over the past few months, the government has repeatedly told the House that it was collaborating fully with the inquiry being conducted by the Military Police Complaints Commission concerning the torture of detainees in Afghanistan. This morning, we were all stunned to hear that the government wants to halt the inquiry because—it claims—the commission lacks the necessary jurisdiction.

Why did the Prime Minister decide to question the commission's jurisdiction now, when he promised to cooperate fully with the inquiry just a few months ago?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, to be clear, the government is not challenging the Military Police Complaints Commission on its general mandate. This deals specifically with what was announced just a month ago: that it was having public hearings. We believe this is outside the jurisdiction and outside its mandate. This matter will be clarified by the courts. Subject to that, there is not much more that can be said about it.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a few months ago, the government said it intended to cooperate. So why is it challenging the commission's jurisdiction now? The Manley report recommended transparency in the Afghan detainees file, but the Prime Minister seems to have forgotten that recommendation.

Will he admit that, once again, he is trying to hide the truth about a potentially explosive issue that has already tarnished his image considerably? When can we expect to see the transparency his government promised?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, that is incorrect. There are now three inquiries into this issue. The member knows that there is a lot of documentation before the court, a lot of information, many revelations concerning this file.

We have had 17 different briefings with respect to Afghanistan. We have had debates in the House of Commons. We have had numerous ministers appear before committee. We answer questions daily. There have been numerous documentaries and questions by the press.

What is happening in Afghanistan is hardly a secret despite the attempt by members opposite to suggest so.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, last year, the government was already trying to stop this inquiry from happening. In March, it said that the inquiry was finally under way.

But one year later, because of delays, I had to ask the Prime Minister why he was refusing to cooperate. He responded that he was not refusing and that the ministers had received clear instructions. However, the government's lawyers are now doing everything they can to stop this inquiry.

If this is not a lie, then what is it?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of cooperation between the Department of Foreign Affairs and the other departments, such as the Department of National Defence.

We have disclosed 1,300 documents. Thirty-eight witnesses have made themselves available to the military complaints commission.

With respect to the public hearings suggested by the commissioner, we are saying it is outside his mandate. There will be a court hearing with respect to that jurisdictional issue. We will await the outcome of that court hearing.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this makes absolutely no sense. The minister is saying that the government is throwing all kinds of paper at the inquiry, while at the same time it is going to the courts to try to stop the inquiry from taking place using some argument about jurisdiction.

Did the government not know about this before or is this just the latest technique the PMO has come up with to figure out how to shut the door to the public, which wants to know what happened to the prisoners who were detained and the allegations of torture? It looks to us like another step in a cover-up that--

[The Speaker, Liberal, Peter Milliken]

The hon. Minister of National Defence.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, it may look like that to the leader of the NDP, but he would know, and he should know, having followed this, that there has been a court application that was heard by the Federal Court, which in fact turned down the application of the B.C. Civil Liberties Association. The court turned down the argument that the Canadian Charter of Rights applied in Afghanistan. That matter is now under appeal.

With respect to the public hearings, as I have said before, we have cooperated thus far for disclosures. We do not believe that this is within the jurisdiction of the commissioner and for that reason we will hear from the court on the matter of jurisdiction.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago the Minister of National Defence said the government was not going to interfere in the internal affairs of Kandahar. A few days ago General Hillier was praising the governor and said he was doing phenomenal work. Yesterday the Minister of Foreign Affairs contradicted that statement and said that it was the government's view that the governor of Kandahar should be removed.

I would like to ask somebody over there who can clear up this confusion, what does the government really think of the governor of Kandahar?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, our position is quite clear. I am sure it is the same position that any reasonable person would come to a conclusion about, which is that the affairs of the Afghan government are the affairs of the Afghan government. It is a sovereign country. It is responsible for its own nominations and its own appointments. We do not make those decisions for the people of Kandahar.

Our focus, however, is on assisting the Afghan people to build the strength of their state and to build their capacity, and to assist in their development. We are having considerable success on these projects.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is a problem. What the minister has just said completely contradicts what his government's Minister of Foreign Affairs said yesterday.

How can he explain that his government is in complete disarray?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, our position is quite clear. What is difficult to understand is any position on almost any issue coming from the Liberal Party. We understand that because often there are many different groups and many different factions within the party that have different positions.

What is more remarkable is that it is also the leader of the Liberal Party who can take one position on issues of foreign policy one day, and then two weeks later take an entirely different position. Those members did the same thing on the tax bill, Bill C-10. They did the same thing on the immigration bill last week. It is the Liberal Party that has trouble sorting out its policies. That party has no policy, no vision and no leadership. It is all over here.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Speaker, transparency and accountability are alien to the Conservative government. Last week General Hillier revealed that both Canada and NATO knew two years ago that we needed at least 1,000 troops to do the job effectively.

Why did the government wait until after January, after the Manley report, to announce that it needed the 1,000 troops, two years after this was already known?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite is new to his critic's portfolio, but giving him that, where has he been?

The Government of Canada and the Department of National Defence have been asking NATO and our allies for additional troops in Afghanistan certainly since we came to office. I do not know what he did under his time, but the reality is that we have been encouraging other countries to contribute to the south, to that region. Despite the apoplectic discussion coming from the former defence minister, that is the reality, and I know he does not like reality because it hurts.

As for disclosure, let us talk about the sponsorship scandal.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Speaker, setting aside that vindictive nonsense, the government does not seem to know who is on first and what is on second when it comes to Afghanistan.

The question remains. Two years ago, the government knew we needed more reinforcements and it chose to do nothing. So much for transparency and accountability. Why does it not simply answer the question? Why did the government not tell Canadians two years ago that our troops were significantly under-resourced? Why did the government wait? The trouble with the government is that it never wants to tell us the facts.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, it is not vindictive to talk about the Gomery inquiry or the sponsorship scandal. That is part of Canadian history. It is part of the Liberal Party's history.

The reality, while the member may have been hiding under his desk during this time, is that this government, previous ministers of defence and I have been engaged with our NATO allies, requesting further support, whether it be troops, equipment or all efforts to secure Afghanistan to help it build its security forces and to help with humanitarian aid and development work.

We have been on the job, doing the job. Those members have been missing in action.