Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank all my hon. colleagues for their interventions today. I believe this is a very important debate and I am pleased to take part in it.
However, before I get into the crux of my statements and argument, I just want to make one observation. I find it very interesting that the members opposite in the Liberal Party are now introducing a motion to basically challenge a ruling of an independent officer of Parliament. I find it interesting because they were very critical of the government when we took similar action.
As is known, we have a dispute with Elections Canada right now over advertising practices and costs of the 2006 election. The Chief Electoral Officer of Canada made a ruling. We disagreed with that ruling and now we are engaged in a legal action because we believe a court of law will prove that our interpretation of the electoral law will be proven correct.
While we have taken that legal action, members of the party opposite have been very critical saying on many occasions that the ruling of the Chief Electoral Officer at Elections Canada must be correct. Elections Canada made an interpretation therefore it must be correct, yet when the Ethics Commissioner made a ruling with which the Liberal Party members disagreed, they have done the same challenge. They are not going to court to try to overturn the ruling, but they are trying to change the rules of the Conflict of Interest Code.
It appears that there is a little bit of hypocrisy going on here if, in fact, the position of the Liberal Party is that Ms. Dawson made an incorrect ruling. The Liberals certainly have a right to do what they feel they need to do to overturn the ruling or to rectify what they consider to be a wrong, as do we.
I would just point that out. Let us make sure that if we are having a debate, we keep things on an even keel and make sure apples are apples and oranges are oranges in our discussion when criticizing other political parties.
I want to begin by going back a little bit in time for those people who may be watching this debate and may be feeling a bit confused about what actually is going on here, and try to set the context of how this motion came to be, and why the debate is taking place today.
As we all know, several months ago the ethics committee, a standing committee of the House, decided to hold investigations and hearings into what is known to be the Mulroney-Schreiber affair. I do not have to go into details about what that affair is. I think all Canadians, and certainly members of this House, are well aware of the dealings between Mr. Mulroney a number of years ago and Mr. Schreiber, but in any event the ethics committee decided it should have a set of hearings to try to get more information about that.
During the course of the lead up to that committee hearing, and into the early parts of that hearing, one of the members of that committee, the Liberal member for West Nova, made some comments outside the House which Mr. Mulroney found to be defamatory. Subsequently, Mr. Mulroney filed a lawsuit against the member for West Nova.
Once that had been done, another member of the ethics committee, the Conservative member for Dufferin—Caledon, in a point of order, asked the member for West Nova to recuse himself because the member for Dufferin—Caledon stated that there was a private interest involved, and since the member for West Nova was being sued by Mr. Mulroney, the member for West Nova should not have the ability to question Mr. Mulroney, should not have the ability nor should he be a part of the committee that is conducting the investigations because it would be a conflict of interest.
The member for West Nova did not recuse himself so subsequent to that the member for Dufferin—Caledon wrote a letter of complaint to the Ethics Commissioner asking her to get involved and subsequently give her interpretation, make a ruling, whether or not the member for West Nova should in fact recuse himself.
The Ethics Commissioner did a quick investigation and came back with a report stating that, as the member for Dufferin—Caledon suggested, the member for West Nova should recuse himself, should not be able to participate in the hearings, and should not have been able to question or cross-examine Mr. Mulroney because there was a clear conflict of interest.
That is where we are today because that was the genesis for this motion.
The Liberal Party clearly disagrees with the ruling of Ms. Dawson and wants to change the rules that we are governed by in this place to allow, in the future, members of Parliament, who have been served with a lawsuit, the ability to speak about that very lawsuit or about issues surrounding the lawsuit.
That is the question we have before us. Is the current code of conduct and code of ethics proper or should it be amended? I would suggest, with great respect to all of the members opposite, that I do not think that the motion we have before us today for debate should be carried or passed, for a number of reasons.
Let me begin, when making my argument, talking about what the code now says and then why it says it.
Right now the code basically says that the interests of the general public should supercede private interests of MPs. In other words, we were elected to represent the general good, not to represent our own self-interests or perhaps even our own partisan interests.
Second, the code states that there should never be any conflict of interest that any member of Parliament finds himself or herself in. That sometimes is difficult to avoid, but I believe it is very easy to interpret.
The code further goes on in section 8 to say that it provides a general prohibition on members acting in any way to further their private interests, whether they intended to or not.
The code also goes on to say, in section 13, and I think this is the critical section, that it prohibits any MP from participating in any debate in the chamber or in a committee in which he or she may have a private interest.
That is what the code states. I do not think there is any confusion about that and there should not be any question that the ruling by Ms. Dawson was a correct one, because here we have a situation where there is clearly a private interest by the member for West Nova.
As I said earlier, the member for West Nova is being sued by a private citizen, a former prime minister of this country, Brian Mulroney. Therefore, any discussion about that lawsuit or any discussion about elements of the lawsuit should not be allowed.
Why is that? Why would the code of conduct put those provisions in? Quite clearly, it was done so for a very good reason. As one of my colleagues, the member for Dufferin—Caledon, earlier pointed out, since the member for West Nova did not recuse himself and was subsequently allowed to cross-examine Mr. Mulroney during committee hearings, he in fact was allowed to gather information which could be beneficial to him in the upcoming lawsuit. The code of conduct clearly states that should not be allowed because he is satisfying or serving his own private interests.
While it is very true, as other members have stated, that information gathered from committee hearings cannot be used in any lawsuit, the fact of the matter is that the member for West Nova was able to gather information which would benefit him in his lawsuit. He does not have to take testimony from his cross-examination. He does not have to take testimony from Mr. Mulroney and enter it as evidence in the court case, but the mere fact that he was able to gather knowledge from his questioning of Mr. Mulroney benefited him.
Second, this case was such a widely known case and garnered such interest from the Canadian public. It was covered so extensively by members of the national media. Since the committee hearings themselves were televised, all of the information that came out of those committee hearings then became a matter of public domain. Canadians from coast to coast to coast would hear daily news reports about testimony at committee.
Canadians who had a great interest in the hearings were able to tune in and watch the committee hearings live. Many committee members, including the chair of the committee, the member for West Nova, constantly appeared on political talk shows during the hearings.
To suggest that the testimony itself could not be used in a court of law and therefore it could not be of any benefit to the member for West Nova is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone in Canada, who had an interest in this case, was able to ascertain what was happening on a daily basis. In some cases, it was on a minute by minute basis if they happened to tune in to the live proceedings.
The Code of Conduct was established to disallow any member from participating in a discussion about a lawsuit involving the member of Parliament. By doing that, it could advance the private interests of the member of Parliament. This is specifically prohibited in the codes that govern us.
As I mentioned earlier, I take very seriously all the rules that govern us. As members of Parliament, we should also be very cognizant of the fact that this motion could set a very dangerous precedent. I say that because we have many, what I would loosely call, rules that govern and guide us in our day to day work. We have the bible of procedures and practices, Marleau and Montpetit, the Standing Orders and codes of conduct.
If we choose to change Standing Orders or elements of the Code of Conduct, it obviously affects all of us, and it will have consequences. That is why, before we engage in any change, the history of this place has always been to be consultative, to consult widely and broadly, not just with members of the House but with others who have an interest, a knowledge and an expertise in parliamentary affairs.
I assume the motion is brought forward with every non-partisan intent in mind. I do not believe the member for Scarborough—Rouge River has brought it forward in a partisan way to try to benefit the Liberal Party of Canada. I believe he brought this motion forward because he believes the code should be changed. However, I argue that the ramifications and the consequences of the change, should the motion be approved, will be very detrimental to the dealings of everyone in the House.
Let me give a few examples. Some may consider these to be extreme, but I can see where some of these examples could actually happen and could quite likely happen.
If the changes are made to the code, if the motion is approved, it will allow members of Parliament to speak freely on any issue in which they may be legally involved. In other words, if private citizens decided to sue members of Parliament over any issue, those members would then be able to, in effect, use this place as a bully pulpit to speak about that issue without fear of consequence. They would be able to, either in debate, or in committee or in member statements, if they wished and depending on the subject material, speak about the issue quite freely, advance their own interests in other words and advance their own arguments before any court case was held.
In my opinion, this should not be allowed to happen. That would be giving a distinct advantage to a member of Parliament. It would allow the private interests of a member of Parliament to supercede the interests of the general public.
Second, I hear, time and time again, members opposite and members in this debate say that the way the current code is written allows for libel chill to occur. They are referring to frivolous and vexatious lawsuits being entered or being launched to try to curtail debate.
It is true, whether it be in this place or in the purview of the general public, many times individuals launch frivolous and vexatious lawsuits to try to engage in some sort of libel chill, to keep someone who is speaking the truth quiet. I suggest we do not have to alter the code to deal with that. The courts are the best judge of what is frivolous and vexatious.
We have seen this time and time again. When someone has launched a frivolous lawsuit, the defendant goes to the court, says so and asks the judge to make an interpretation. That is how we deal with frivolous lawsuits. We do not change the code because we think that in the future there will be a raft of these frivolous and vexatious lawsuits in an attempt to quiet debate and discussion. There are many legal remedies to deal with that.
However, if there is, what I call, a legitimate lawsuit, one that is proven by courts and interpreted by judges as to be not frivolous and vexatious, brought forward by a member of the general public against a sitting member of Parliament, that member of Parliament should not be allowed to use his or her privilege in this place to gain an advantage over the private citizen. Why should he or she?
The current code is absolutely correct. If we change it, we head down a very slippery slope, and not only in this case. I know this is a very narrow cast example. This was obviously brought forward because the member for Scarborough—Rouge River did not feel it would be appropriate to disallow the ability of the member for West Nova to speak on the Mulroney-Schreiber proceedings.
What happens in the larger picture if we agree to the motion? In fact, it could happen now but I think a precedent would be set if the motion were passed. However, if any government, regardless of political stripe, gained a majority in the House and simply did not like a Standing Order, a code or any independent officer of Parliament's ability to interpret and adjudicate, is it could simply change the rules. Quite genuinely, I would hate to see that happen.
I would hate to see any government of the day, in a majority situation, have the ability if a Standing Order did not serve its partisan purposes, to use its majority and arbitrarily change it. I fear the change proposed in the motion would set a very dangerous precedent. Normally and historically, any changes to Standing Orders or any rules that govern this place and members of Parliament have not been dealt with in this manner. It has always been dealt with in a consultative way, usually through procedure and House affairs.
A number of people have referred to the fact that the procedure and House affairs committee is not sitting, and that is quite true. As a member of that committee, I have intimate knowledge of why the committee is not sitting. I suggest that if, as an example, the Liberal Party of Canada, the Bloc Québécois and the NDP all agree that procedure and House affairs could resume sitting to deal with this issue and this issue only, there would be widespread support from all members.
Unfortunately, there is a motion currently before the procedure and House affairs committee, which the committee clerk and chairman ruled to be outside its mandate. That is the stalling point, because the majority members on that committee disagreed with the chair's ruling and with the law clerk of Parliament and got rid of the committee chair. Therefore, the committee is not sitting.
I believe the procedure and House affairs committee is the right venue to discuss whether there should be changes to the Code of Conduct. It should not be done in this manner in this place in a one day debate. It should take place in a highly consultative manner through procedure and House affairs by bringing in expert witnesses and having a rational, fulsome discussion and debate. That is why I will be opposing the motion today.