House of Commons Hansard #117 of the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was inuit.
New MemberRoutine Proceedings
The Speaker Peter Milliken
I have the honour to inform the House that the Clerk of the House has received from the Chief Electoral Officer a certificate of the election and return of Mr. Bernard Généreux, member for the electoral district of Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup.
Mr. Bernard Généreux, member for the electoral district of Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, introduced by the Right Hon. Stephen Harper and the Hon. Christian Paradis.
Michael Ignatieff LiberalLeader of the Opposition
Mr. Speaker, reports of torture reached the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister's national security advisor. For 18 months, the Conservatives did nothing. They instead tried to hide the information. The moment of truth has arrived.
When will the Prime Minister turn this evidence over to Parliament? When will he tell the truth?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, first, those reports do not prove that there was abuse. On the contrary, they are evaluations of the prison system in Afghanistan based on indirect observations and evidence. When our diplomats and our soldiers have received credible evidence of cases of abuse, our diplomats and our soldiers have taken action in those cases.
Michael Ignatieff LiberalLeader of the Opposition
Mr. Speaker, reports of torture reached the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister's own national security adviser.
For 18 months, the government knew about torture in Afghan jails. For 18 months, it did not investigate. For 18 months, it did not stop it, and it has covered it up ever since. Why?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, the reports that the hon. gentleman is talking about, by their own admission, are not credible evidence of torture of Canadian detained prisoners. They are simply evaluations of the Afghan prison system based on second-hand and third-hand evidence.
Whenever Canadian officials or soldiers have received credible reports of abuse, they have reacted and responded. There were systematic improvements to the detainee transfer arrangements over that period of time, culminating in a comprehensive new agreement that was signed over two and a half years ago.
Michael Ignatieff LiberalLeader of the Opposition
Mr. Speaker, between January 2006 and May 2007, the government knew that torture was occurring in Afghan jails. It knew that it was transferring Afghans to those very jails, but the Prime Minister claims that no one transferred by Canadians was ever tortured.
How can he be so categorical when the government did nothing to investigate for 18 months? What kind of Canadian government does nothing to prevent torture?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, again, on the contrary, Canadian officials and soldiers have always acted when they have had credible evidence of abuse. That is absolutely clear.
The arrangements that were in place in a mission started by the Liberal government in 2002 began to be improved as soon as this government took office. They were comprehensively rewritten in early 2007.
That is the record. It is absolutely clear. Any such slander of soldiers and Canadian officials without evidence is without basis.
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence wrongly says that there is not a “scintilla” of evidence regarding Afghan detainee torture, yet the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission reports that at least 98.5% of interviewed victims have been tortured.
The minister wrongly says that Mr. Colvin's testimony is “not credible”, though corroborated by reports from the commission, the UN and Foreign Affairs itself over the same period. The real problem is there is no scintilla of credibility in the government's position.
Will the government release the necessary documents in the pursuit of truth or will it continue to obstruct justice and obstruct the truth?
Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway
Mr. Speaker, as we have indicated on a number of occasions, we are cooperating with respect to documents. We are cooperating with respect to the committee examining this situation.
With respect to evidence, what the hon. member is referring to are general conditions within the Afghan prison system. What we are seized with and what we are responsible for are prisoners transferred by Canadian Forces. That is the focus of the issue.
We all have concerns about the conditions of Afghan prisons, which is why we are investing in human rights and why we are investing in making improvements there. We have been doing that since 2006.
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Mr. Speaker, the government falsely claims that it stands for accountability and protection for whistleblowers, but the government's policy is that of the three Ds: denial of the evidence; disparaging of the witnesses; and dissembling of the truth.
Will the government establish an independent judicial commission of inquiry so as to shine the spotlight of truth on the unaccountable three-D government that intimidates whistleblowers, withholds testimony and obstructs justice?
Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway
Mr. Speaker, we have cooperated. We have invested heavily in improvements in human rights. We have invested in the training of prison officials, of justice officials, of police on the ground in Afghanistan.
Upon taking office, we improved upon the transfer arrangement to ensure that we could have more people go into the prison system to monitor situations where prisoners for whom we were responsible were transferred. We have acted substantially.
The reality is we inherited a bad situation left by the hon. member's government. When we took office, we took action.
Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, a senior official at Foreign Affairs confirmed Richard Colvin's remarks. We now have extensive testimony all along the same lines: the government knew very well, from the fall of 2006, that there was a risk of torture when detainees were transferred to Afghan authorities. It nevertheless decided to turn a blind eye.
Is the Prime Minister continuing to refuse to release documents about this matter because he did not want to take responsibility for the Afghan detainees?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, once again, when there was credible proof of abuse in Afghan prisons of Canadian-detained prisoners, the government, soldiers, Canadian Forces and the Department of Foreign Affairs took action.
In the end, we entered into a new agreement on transfers over two and a half years ago.
Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, if that is true, why are they not releasing the documents? That would prove their story.
According to another government source, there was a meeting in December 2006 at the Privy Council Office regarding the involvement of the Governor of Kandahar in the torture of Afghan detainees. Since the Prime Minister likes to control everything, he must have been advised that this meeting was held within the offices of his own department.
Can the Prime Minister indicate whether or not said meeting was held by Privy Council Office?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, this government has released thousands of pages of documents in this matter. Other public servants wish to testify before the parliamentary committee. If the Leader of the Bloc and the opposition parties truly wish to hear the facts, they can listen to these witnesses.
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Speaker, all of the parties must have access to the documents concerning the treatment of Afghan prisoners. That is a basic principle of justice. The Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council, the generals and Mr. Mulroney all have access to those documents, including those signed by Richard Colvin, but the opposition parties do not. This government is trying to withhold information to hide the fact that it did not fulfill its responsibilities when it comes to torture. It is as simple as that.
Will the government release all the documents so that the opposition and the public can finally know what really happened?
Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway
Mr. Speaker, that is false. That is not correct. The government cooperated and did everything necessary. It heard from witnesses and studied the situations in Afghanistan.
We have cooperated in arm's-length investigations. We are cooperating with the parliamentary committee. We are turning over documents. We are allowing witnesses to give testimony with respect to this issue. We will hear from generals today. We will hear from other officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs.
This issue will receive a full airing, as it does each and every day.
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Speaker, what the minister said is true, but what he did not say is that we need the documents in order to know if everything we are hearing is true. That is what we are asking him.
Today in Le Devoir, a senior official confirmed Richard Colvin's testimony regarding David Mulroney's censoring. If the allegations of torture could not be proven, the government insisted that they not appear in the written report.
Why did this government try to muzzle its diplomats on the ground, if not to hide its inability to fulfill its responsibilities under international conventions?
Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway
Mr. Speaker, that is not correct. We continued cooperating in this matter.
We have in fact encouraged people to come forward. We are looking forward to, as I think Canadians are, hearing from David Mulroney, who was in a position to assess the situation in Afghanistan as a senior public servant at that time.
We will be hearing from generals and from other individuals involved in the extraordinary effort that Canada was making at that time to improve human rights in Afghanistan, to invest in its prison system, to train officials, to see that prisoners we were responsible for and transferred to Afghans were treated humanely.
This is the extraordinary effort that our country has made. We can be proud of it.
Jack Layton NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Mr. Speaker, today is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. The YWCA has started its annual rose campaign, which calls on the government to ensure that women can seek shelter and that they do not have to be forced to choose between poverty or to go back to conditions of violence.
Over 100,000 women and children are having to seek shelter each year in our country, and aboriginal women are affected more than any other group.
Would the Prime Minister finally agree that with 500 aboriginal women missing, we are dealing with a public safety emergency in our country?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, obviously violence against any Canadian citizen, violence against women, is unacceptable in our society. We all continue to be concerned about the level of violence we see against defenceless persons, including women in our society.
That is why this government has made a reform of the criminal justice system a major priority to protect innocent, law-abiding Canadian citizens.
Jack Layton NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Mr. Speaker, while we are waiting for the documents relating to the Afghan detainee situation, the government should stop doing everything it can to block the truth and simply start telling the truth.
Now that we know emails were sent directly to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, now that we know 400 torture cases were confirmed by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, now that we know our forces had to stop the transfer of prisoners on more occasions than we were told by the government, will the Prime Minister agree to put partisanship aside and call a public inquiry into this situation?
Stephen Harper ConservativePrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, the evidence is absolutely clear. Members of the Government of Canada, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Canadian Forces have always taken such matters seriously. When they have had credible evidence, they have acted up to and including comprehensively revising all transfer arrangements two and a half years ago and putting in place a whole series of mechanisms to improve both monitoring and performance in the Afghan prison system.
If the opposition is serious about being non-partisan in its inquiry, it will hear all witnesses who want to testify and not try to censor their testimony.
Jack Layton NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Mr. Speaker, Le Devoir is reporting that another senior official has said that Mr. Colvin's testimony shows the government did not take action, and instead turned a blind eye to cases of torture.
A report from a government official, Nicholas Gosselin, from November 2007, mentions a prisoner transferred by Canada, who was visited in prison and seen with visible marks. There was concrete proof: instruments of torture had been left behind.
Is the Prime Minister going to keep on denying that torture is going on?