Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in this debate. I want to say first of all that I support the motion before the House.
This debate has absolutely nothing to do with the support of Canadian soldiers in the field. Having been to Afghanistan on two occasions, I can say that they are of the highest quality, the highest standards, and that our men and women deserve and I know receive the support of all members in this House.
The issue is about the conduct of the Government of Canada. It is about the direction that the government is going in. As the vice-chair of both the defence committee and the Afghan committee, I find it very troubling that we are not able to have the documentation that we need in order to do our job. Apparently others have that right, whether they be former generals or people in the press, but the members of the committee who are charged with the responsibility of looking into these issues, into these allegations, do not have the documentation.
This Parliament passed a resolution in 2008, and I want to read one part of it to the House:
(a) commit to meeting the highest NATO and international standards with respect to protecting the rights of detainees, transferring only when it believes it can do so in keeping with Canada’s international obligations;
That is what this House passed and members on the other side voted for that. That is our moral responsibility and, indeed, our legal responsibility, both under the Geneva Convention and the articles of war.
We have heard from the other side that somehow while the 2005 agreement was clearly not adequate, the Conservatives brought in a tougher one later on. Nobody is disputing that. The question is, from the generals who appeared before us, Mr. Mulroney and others, that we really did not know what we were getting into in 2005, but clearly if there was a problem, why did the government across the way decide to change the agreement, to amend the agreement? If there was no abuse, and no one can categorically say that there was not, then why did we have to amend it? We had to amend it because obviously there were issues out there.
In one of these redacted documents, and again when we are reading something with all this black in it, it is very difficult, one of the memos from Mr. Colvin's email which was copied to Mr. Mulroney, Colleen Swords and others, and I do not even know the date because unfortunately it is blacked out, under 19 it says:
Apart from non-access to detention facilities themselves, the main difficulty we faced was in correctly identifying “our” detainees. [blacked out] explained that they had no list of “Canadian” detainees....Moreover, the information in our possession was quite limited. The names were written only in English, not in Pashto. We had no photos or other descriptions of each detainees, only their age and the name of their village (not even the district) in [blacked out]. Of the [blacked out] only in [blacked out]--
And it goes on. From that, clearly there is either something to hide or the fact is that we did not know what we were transferring, but certainly the International Red Cross did. Certainly, the Americans did and others did. I am sure that pressure was brought to bear and is why the government decided to change the agreement.
The agreement that was entered into in 2005 was to meet the requirements we thought of at the time. Clearly, there were allegations out there, these allegations made by Mr. Colvin and others. Mr. Colvin is a respected public servant. The generals before us are all well respected. No one questions that.
The questions are, what did the government know, what information did it have, and what did it do with that information when it received it? If the government has nothing to hide, then why does it not allow a full public inquiry? That would also be very helpful, both to those who have come forward on both sides of this issue and also because we as a committee, and I think this is very important, are constrained in our ability to seek the answers because first, we do not have the documentation, and second, we have seven minutes in which to ask questions. It is pretty hard to get the question and answer in seven minutes. I know that is a difficult situation at least for members.
Maybe, on the other side, some members there have seen these documents in their entirety. They claim they have not, but at this point we say a public inquiry because we are not able to function. In fact, it seems like a Hollywood backdrop. Witnesses come in and certain members are briefed on this information who come before the committee. The members try their best, but at the end of the day, we do not have the information we need. So this is also a moral issue.
We have a moral obligation to Canadians to ensure that we are extremely above board. The government, if it were needing to hide anything, would certainly makes these documents available, certainly to members of the committee, but also would be forthright in saying there is a conflict here. We have a situation where a former defence minister indicated he knew nothing that happened and yet 19 memos were sent to the government indicating that there were concerns of torture.
Then we have the current minister who has changed his mind from time to time depending on the situation. My mother used to say “never be a prevaricator of the truth because you will have to remember what you said or not said at some point”. It is better to simply tell the truth right up front. Unfortunately, we do not seem to be able to get the answers we need. Is the government covering up? One would assume, if members are not prepared to release the documentation, if they are not prepared to be forthright, that is the only conclusion one can come to.
On the issue of international responsibilities, our soldiers are performing extremely well in the field. We know they are taught very strongly about what to do when they have a prisoner. So there are concerns when these people are turned over to Afghan jails. No one is suggesting that Afghan jails are top notch. In fact, they are a disaster. We know they are a disaster and that is why on at least three occasions the transfers were stopped. If they were not stopped then everything would have been fine. But clearly they were stopped because there were these allegations out there. I find it hard to believe, as a member of Parliament, that the government did not know because otherwise it would not have stopped something if everything was fine.
On this side of the House we listen when government members speak. On that side of the House we hear catcalls. If we really want to have a thorough and full debate, then they should listen, even if they do not like it. At committee we try to extend the same courtesy across the aisle, but the government is stonewalling. We saw what happened at the Military Police Complaints Commission, another example of where it was thwarted from doing its job because of the situation.
I should point out that my friend and colleague, the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, will be splitting time with me.
I want to point out that the special committee on Afghanistan is not able to do its job because it does not have the tools to do it. Unfortunately, although everyone on the committee certainly has good intentions, they cannot do that. So the issue now comes down to certain people saying one thing, certain people saying another thing. We need a full public inquiry, where the documentation can be provided, where we can actually get the answers and not in seven minutes, so we can move forward on this issue.
Again, I refer to the resolution that Parliament supported. It referred to protecting the rights of detainees. We have to walk the talk. We cannot pass a resolution and then ignore what is in the resolution. We have a responsibility and I would suggest that if the government has nothing to hide, call a public inquiry. Let us find out the real facts and then not only will Parliament know but Canadians will know.