Debates of Dec. 7th, 2009

Motion that debate be not further adjourned

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite will have to be satisfied with the Minister of Finance, and not the leader, on this question. I am sorry to disappoint.

This is a matter of provincial jurisdiction. Back in the 1990s three provinces chose to harmonize their provincial sales taxes with the federal GST. I might add that these provinces now have governments of various political stripes.

The Liberal Government of Ontario and the Liberal Government of British Columbia are choosing to exercise their autonomous option. They do have jurisdiction. They have tax jurisdiction in their own areas and it is not for the federal Parliament, in our view, to interfere with these autonomous decisions being debated and made in the legislative assemblies of British Columbia and Ontario.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister relates to the proceedings at committee. In paragraph 2, the government motion indicates that “not more than four hours following adoption of the second reading motion, any proceedings before the Committee to which the bill stands referred shall be interrupted”, and then the committee has to report back by 11 p.m.

Then we have the issue of report stage motions. The minister will know that members who do not participate in the committee have the opportunity to issue report stage motions, but cannot do so on matters already dealt with at committee. Since there is no time for the House to report, it means that any members who are serious about considering report stage motions will also actually have to be at the committee to determine what is there in order to ask their question.

I wonder if the Minister of Finance believes that maybe the committee process, or the review of the bill under those proceedings, would effectively render them inconsequential.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Not at all, Mr. Speaker. Any member can attend the committee and I am sure that members who wish to do so will do so, as it is part of their duty and job as parliamentarians.

This is technical framework legislation federally. This is not a revenue issue for the Government of Canada. The revenues of the Government of Canada do not change--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Why are you ramming this motion through?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

I hear someone opposite asking why we are doing this now. They need some certainty in the Province of Ontario and the Province of British Columbia. They are planning to do this on July 1.

I would think the NDP would care about people's jobs. This affects people's jobs. Those who work in the revenue departments of British Columbia and Ontario are entitled to some certainty in their lives. Even though the NDP does not care about them, we do and we think they are entitled to some certainty with respect to their jobs.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order. I will ask hon. members to allow the person who is speaking to do so without interruption.

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House, we do realize the urgency of this. As the minister has said, we need to get this through for some certainty, not only for the provinces but also for the businesses that operate there.

I would like to read a quote to the minister from Dwight Duncan, our minister's colleague in Ontario. He said:

Ontarians have a great track record of success when we work together to build a better future for our children.

Our goal is a better future powered by a stronger economy. The next step we must take to get there is tax reform.

Specifically, today we propose three significant tax changes.

First, a single value-added sales tax for Ontario.

Second, permanent personal tax relief and three direct payments to Ontarians as we transition to a single sales tax.

Third, comprehensive corporate tax reforms to permanently and significantly reduce business taxes for large and small enterprises across the province.

I ask the finance minister if that indeed is what he has heard from his colleague in Ontario as being very important to them?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is what we have heard not only from the Government of Ontario but also from the Government of British Columbia. They would like to have certainty. They would like to know whether in fact they are going to be harmonizing their taxes within their area of jurisdiction.

This is a minority Parliament. The question that I discussed with members opposite last week was a very simple one: Is this Parliament going to support the decisions being made by those governments in those provinces, supported by votes in their legislative assemblies; or is it not?

It is important that they be respected and be given certainty by this Parliament, one way or the other. I look forward to the votes, one way or the other.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the question Canadians might have for the finance minister is why ram this through with such speed now? It was only introduced Friday, with no time for people to have any kind of conscious debate.

It is a deeply unpopular tax move. It is the worst tax at the worst possible time for Ontario and British Columbia. It shifts taxes off corporations onto individuals, and we have been hearing from thousands and thousands of British Columbians and Ontarians who are upset and furious because the government has no mandate to do this.

My hon. colleague is so craven to the idea that this is a provincial issue, why did he offer up almost $6 billion in bribe money that could have been used for something else? Why ram this through now? It is because he knows that this is deeply politically unpopular for his members from British Columbia and Ontario.

Why will he not simply face the truth that we need a debate in the House and recognize that this closure is fundamentally undemocratic?

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley used a term which I find unparliamentary. He may wish to withdraw the term “bribe money”, as something that would impugn the motive of a member.

Therefore, I will invite him to withdraw the remark and then I will go to the Minister of Finance.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it was an unsolicited incentive, using taxpayer dollars to raise taxes on taxpayers. I hope that corrects—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I will take that as a withdrawal.

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what is fundamentally undemocratic is what the member opposite has proposed, and that is he and his party would substitute their view for the views of the democratically elected members of the legislatures of Ontario and British Columbia. This is solely within their area of tax jurisdiction. It is their decision to make. This is technical framework legislation in the Parliament of Canada, and we should respect the choices that are being made by the provinces.

With respect to the transition funding by the federal government, as it was in the 1990s so it is now. This is done based on a percentage, 1.5%, of the particular province's GST. This is framework legislation can be used in the future if other provinces, in their own autonomous way, make a decision to harmonize.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ask a couple of questions of my hon. colleague from Whitby—Oshawa, the Minister of Finance. As a member from British Columbia, from Kelowna—Lake Country, many of my constituents are seniors and they are concerned about what has happened with their taxes. I am very proud that our government lowered the GST from 7%, to 6%, to 5%, and that we continue to lower taxes across the country.

We have heard from previous speakers about the need to continue to lower taxes to stay competitive. A news release came out of Premier Campbell's office in which he said, “This is the single biggest thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy” . Also, the Minister of Finance indicated that the PST was an outdated, inefficient and costly tax, some of which was hidden in the price of goods and services and passed on and paid by consumers.

My question for my hon. colleague is twofold. The fact is this request for the HST was at the request of the province not at the request of the federal government, and the federal government does not benefit from the HST.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on the second part of the question, there is no change in federal government revenues one way or the other as a result of a province, in its own jurisdiction, deciding to harmonize its provincial sales tax with the goods and services tax federally.

Again, as the hon. member has suggested, he is absolutely correct. This is a decision-making process by a particular provincial government, in this case, the provincial governments of British Columbia and Ontario. They have fulsome debate in their own legislatures and their members vote, as they should, in their own area of constitutional jurisdiction relating to taxation.

What the federal government is called upon to do is to create the technical framework so their decision making can be enabled.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the minister will know that members of his own party in the legislature of Ontario have been holding up the legislature. They vehemently oppose this. Also, in the two elections that took place in B.C. and Ontario, neither of those governments raised the point of an increase in taxation to people.

I was on a tour this summer and I went to about 17 communities in B.C. and Ontario. I never found one senior who spoke in favour of an HST. In fact, in Elliot Lake, one woman told me her hydro bill was $2,100 a year and she wondered where she would to get the extra 160-odd dollars. She had no place to turn.

The minister says that it will not affect the federal revenues, and I take him at his word. However, spending $6 billion is going to affect the bottom line, $6 billion as an incentive for people to sign on to this. I think it is repugnant.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, unlike the member who just spoke, I respect the decision making by elected members of the Ontario legislative assembly and by elected members of the British Columbia legislature.

This is within their constitutional jurisdiction, provincial sales taxes, and what they do with them. Unlike the hon. member, I would not substitute my view as an elected member of the federal parliament for an area in which the province has jurisdiction. I gather he would substitute his view for the duly elected members of the legislative assembly of Ontario.

With respect to the formula, it is in the pattern used in the 1990s. Why he would suggest that the federal government should discriminate against Ontario and British Columbia in the formula and not follow along with what was done in the 1990s for New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia, I do not know. I do not know why he wants to discriminate against British Columbia and Ontario.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, coming from the North, I still do not understand why the government wants to continue pushing this so quickly without having proper debate on it.

Anishinabek Nation Grand Council Chief Patrick Madahbee stated that it had a population of approximately 52,000 people within 42 first nations communities in Ontario. Most other first nations people in Ontario have treaty and aboriginal rights to a tax exemption. The HST, as proposed, does not provide for point of sale exemption for their people.

I would remind the government that there is an obligation by government to consult and engage first nations prior to significant tax changes, such as tax exemptions. Will the minister or the government commit to doing that prior to pushing this HST?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government does not change its way of administering the GST with respect to first nations. The provincial government makes that decision with respect to its provincial sales tax. This is not a matter that concerns the federal Parliament.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I think Canadians who may be watching this debate today or at least following this story as it unravels are wondering why we, as a federal Parliament, have to take any steps at all to introduce legislation when in fact this is primarily almost entirely a provincial jurisdictional matter.

The Minister of Finance has spoken on a couple of occasions about the technical aspects of the legislation we are bringing forward today. Could the minister perhaps put in more layman language exactly what the federal government is attempting to do today that would facilitate the provincial governments' desire to harmonize their provincial tax with the GST?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the concerns the provinces of British Columbia and Ontario have, as the Atlantic provinces did when they chose to make these decisions 10 years or so ago, is to make it easier for businesses to do business, so there are not two collectors of tax, at the provincial and at the federal level.

One thing we deal with in framework legislation, which will apply in the future as well, is the collection of the tax by the Government of Canada so there is only one set of paperwork, one set of forms, which is of assistance to small, medium and large businesses in Canada.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister is simply wrong. One party has stood up for ordinary Canadians right across the Canada, and that is the NDP.

In Saskatchewan, when the Conservatives brought in the HST, the Romanow government promptly stopped it. Manitoba has refused to put in place the HST. Darrell Dexter, the new premier of Nova Scotia, is reducing it now on all those family essentials after years of seeing Nova Scotian families gouged. One party is standing up for ordinary Canadians, ordinary British Columbians and ordinary Ontarian families.

The reason why the government is bringing in this bludgeoning of closure is because it is running scared. More and more Canadians, people in Ontario and British Columbia, are becoming aware that $2,000 for a family of four is going to be ripped out of their pockets in this massive tax shift to help big corporations.

The reason why the government is running scared and is invoking closure is because it knows that 80% of the people in British Columbia are opposed and 80% of the people in Ontario are opposed.

The reason why the Conservatives are running scared is because they lost in New Westminster—Coquitlam, a massive shift in vote, and they know if they run on the HST, they are going to be soundly defeated.

Why such contempt for ordinary British Columbian families, ordinary Ontarian families? Why does the government not allow a debate in the House—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, if I thought the hon. member were actually sincere in his protestations, I would be concerned. I do thank him and his caucus members for supporting the government in September so we could bring this bill forward in the House.

The relatively newly elected Government of Nova Scotia, which is a New Democratic Party government, has chosen to maintain harmonization in that province.