Debates of Dec. 7th, 2009

Motion that debate be not further adjourned

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

They are cutting it. You know that.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Again, it is passing strange to hear an NDP criticizing a newly elected government in the province of Nova Scotia. He does not really believe a word he says.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order, please. The hon. member asked the question and then he did not listen to the response. He was not giving the member a chance to answer the question. The Speaker is not going to be recognizing people who ask questions while somebody else is trying to answer the question. They might want to keep that in mind when they are listening to the answers.

The hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the government has known about this issue for months. It basically has left this issue deliberately until the last couple of days before Christmas, when people are not paying attention. It is trying to sneak it through.

The whole process is a travesty. The government dumped this motion on us at the last minute. What we are seeing is an absolutely undemocratic approach taken by the government. Next July, Canadians in B.C. and Ontario will face huge tax increases on things they did not pay tax on before. The government is running scared on the issue and that is why it is acting in a very cowardly fashion right now.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I always like the references to the cowardly lion in The Wizard of Oz. I always liked that character. I will probably watch it over the Christmas season.

What is undemocratic is members of the New Democratic Party in the federal House wanting to substitute its views for duly elected members of the legislatures in Ontario and British Columbia. That is undemocratic. They have the responsibility for this, not the members who are elected to the federal House.

There will be three full days of debate. We introduced a notice of ways and means motion some time ago, which has already been voted on in the House. The bill itself has been available to members since Friday, when it was introduced in the House. I know those members do not like to work too hard, but if they want to get the job done, they want to work hard, they want to read the bill, they want further briefings, we will get it for them, if they want to work that hard and if they are serious and sincere in what they have said, which I doubt.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister just asked us whether we are serious and sincere. I should ask the same thing of the minister himself, a man who would get himself all worked up at Queen's Park every time something did not go his way, a man who has always lectured everyone, saying that our primary role here was to oversee public spending.

How can he stand here in good conscience today as he forces everyone to keep quiet with a procedural guillotine? How can he stand here in good conscience as he imposes a new 8% tax on heating oil in northern Ontario? How can he live with imposing a new tax that will be the culmination of the biggest transfer of corporate taxes to ordinary citizens?

And lastly, how can a man who thinks he can give lessons on honesty to others, when he has always conspired with the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Industry, the whole Mike Harris bench, a man who is now being attacked by Hudak and the other Conservatives from Toronto at Queen's Park, how can he live with himself and his own political party, especially considering what he has said in the past?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member opposite that I know several members of the Ontario legislature very well, one in particular. I am really quite fond of her as well, for many years now. We do not always agree and that is part of modern life. We are in a democracy and it is a good thing.

What I will not do is what the hon. member wants to do, and that is purport to substitute my opinion as a federal member for the opinions of the duly elected members of the legislature of the province of Ontario, and the same thing for the elected members of the legislature of the province of British Columbia.

It is not our place to tell them what decisions they should make in their own area of autonomous jurisdiction. I am shocked that an NDP member from Quebec would advocate that we should interfere like that in provincial matters.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ask the minister a couple of questions.

I want to begin by assuring him that New Democrats all across the country are profoundly concerned about taxes that are being downloaded onto consumers in order to give yet more tax breaks to multinational and profitable corporations.

My question has to do with the secrecy surrounding this HST. When did the federal government begin its negotiations with the provinces and what consultations were undertaken with the public? Very clearly it is the public that is profoundly upset by the apparent new tax and the effect it will have on them.

Would the minister please explain, if he is so concerned about democracy, why he did not consult the public?

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

On the second point, Mr. Speaker, the provinces are responsible for consulting with their populations when they bring forward tax legislation in their area of jurisdiction, which is what they have done, as I understand it, in the provinces of Ontario and British Columbia.

With respect to so-called secrecy, at some point after the last election in Ontario, some discussions began with respect to possible harmonization at the request of the province. It was after the provincial election most recently in the province of British Columbia that discussions began between the minister of finance and me on this subject vis-à-vis British Columbia.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I will keep this very brief. I just want to clear up any possible misperceptions by the viewing public at home because of some of the nonsense coming from the fourth party in the chamber. The finance minister has already indicated in his remarks that the NDP has said that we somehow are not going to allow debate on this. I would like the finance minister to perhaps elaborate a bit more on this.

This is an extremely technical bill that is really all about respecting provincial autonomy to take control of their own--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It is closure, and Canadians would not understand, right? And British Columbia would not understand? Shame on you.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Pipe down.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order. The Speaker has asked hon. members to allow the person either putting a question or answering a question the chance to do so without being interrupted.

I will go back to the government House leader and hopefully I will be able to hear him finish his question.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Well, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, due to the shouting and heckling of the member for Burnaby—Douglas I will have to go on a bit further to finish my question.

People should know that after the vote in a few minutes--

[An hon. member]

Point of order, point of order.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I see the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas. I assume he is rising to point out the mistake in riding names that was made. The government House leader said Burnaby—Douglas but he may have been referring to another member.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will apologize. It was the member for Burnaby—New Westminster who was heckling and shouting and making a nuisance of himself and not his colleague. Sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

The reality is that we will have a lot of debate today, until 8 p.m. tonight, according to the procedural motion. We will have debate tomorrow on the bill itself at second reading. The bill will then go to committee, as is the usual process. On Wednesday we will have debate at third reading. There is going to be a lot of debate on this highly technical bill that respects provincial jurisdiction.

Far from cutting off debate on this issue, we are going to have a substantial amount of debate. I would like the finance minister to remark on the amount of debate that we are going to have over the next three days on this issue.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we are going to have substantial debate, as the government House leader has suggested. If members opposite want to actually debate what is in the federal bill, as opposed to what is in the legislation that has been introduced in Ontario which deals with the substance, then we should talk about the provisions in the technical bill. If they need to understand it better, I could certainly make senior officials at the Department of Finance available to take them through it clause by clause.

This federal legislation is not that complicated. It is a technical piece of legislation that would enable the provincial governments to act in their own area of jurisdiction.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what is most troubling for Canadians as they watch this debate today is the contempt and the smirks from members of the Conservative Party. The Conservatives are showing their complete disregard for the issue at hand. They do not want to hear the voices of senior citizens of Ontario and British Columbia. They do not want to hear from the people who are going to be most affected by this. These people are calling us and asking us to have their voices heard. The minister and other Conservative members are showing contempt for the senior citizens of Ontario.

The Conservatives say this bill is too technical. They do not want to hear from the people who are going to be affected. They are going to shut down the voices of the people who will be paying extra for their home heating fuel, who will be paying extra when they try to get their RRSP savings.

These people have a right to be heard. That is our job as members of Parliament. The Conservatives can ridicule us all they want, but we are representing our people. The minister and his gang are working with Dalton McGuinty to shut down the voices of people who are going to be paying the hardest for this regressive tax. The minister should at least be honest and say that he does not want to hear from senior citizens because he knows what they are going to say.

That is why the Conservatives are shutting down the debate. That is why we are moving to closure now.

[Jim Flaherty, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a question of respect for Parliament and respect for our federation. As the member opposite knows or should know, the provinces have sole jurisdiction with respect to areas of provincial taxation. That includes provincial sales taxes.

Ten years or so ago, certain provinces decided to harmonize their provincial sales tax with the federal GST. Two more are in the process of taking that decision. They debate in their own legislatures. They have their own public consultations. They ask us to help with respect to the collection and framework so they can do it. It is not a revenue question for the Government of Canada or for the Parliament of Canada.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

It is my duty now to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion that the debate be not further adjourned. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

All those opposed will please say nay.