Debates of April 21st, 2009

Opposition Motion—Gun Control

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague. As he well knows, I represent a rural region, where people have had a lot of concerns about the gun registry and the way that gun registry was implemented. We also see how the Conservatives send mailings into our ridings, saying they will take on the gun registry and try to inflame people.

However, when we look at Bill C-301, residents in my riding are certainly horrified to see a bill that would allow machine guns to be transported, making it easier for prohibited arms to be carried around, and allowing individuals with the illegal possession of prohibitive handguns to keep them, which is under clause 8. This bill is a Trojan Horse allowing people in urban areas to drive around with Berettas in their SUVs.

I want to ask my colleague why he thinks the Conservatives would float a bill that is so reckless it would allow gangbangers in Vancouver to have a field day and use that while trying to create a greater urban-rural divide and play upon the resentment that exists in rural Canada toward the gun registry?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member has hit the point in part, in terms of his question giving some of the answer on that divide that unfortunately all too often we see from not only the Conservative Party but the right-wing ideologists who model themselves after the Republicans in the United States, knowing that if they divide society and get people lined up on their side, it helps their political aspirations and their ideology. That is part of it.

In addition to that, and I do not want to sound like I am paranoid, there is also a clear expression here. In my speech I talked about the 5% who just philosophically are opposed to any government involvement in gun registration or gun control. They are absolutely opposed to it. There is no need for it and they will not tolerate that. That 5% drove a number of those sections and drove the member from Saskatchewan, who authored that bill, to begin to initiate the total destruction of the gun registry, not just the long gun registry but handguns, restricted weapons, assault weapons, all of those, that on the surface we all say none of us want. However, there is that small percentage, and I think that is what was driving him when he drafted the bill, who would like to get rid of the registry completely, not just the long gun registry.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there are these issues in our society that can be used to widen the divisions that already exist. The firearms registry debate is one of those issues. My colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh has just given us a list, with the evidence, of the kinds of deaths that have declined as a result of the existence of a firearms registry, including registration of hunting weapons, rifles and so on.

He said that the number of murders in Canada is falling, and that is tangible. The number of murders with that kind of firearm is falling dramatically. The number of accidents, because the weapons were very often improperly stored, where young people found themselves with a gun in their hands, has also dropped dramatically. As well, the number of suicides with that kind of firearm has also radically declined.

When we see that an instrument of public policy can produce results like that, can reduce the number of murders, the number of suicides and the number of accidental deaths, it is entirely reasonable to expect to see complete unanimity in this House. And yet we see from the tone and content of the question the Conservative member just put to my colleague that once again, the Conservatives are pulling out all the stops to create a problem where there is none and to advance their extreme right-wing ideology.

What the question referred to was a sham, a pointless, redundant amendment proposed by the Conservatives, because there are already provisions in the Criminal Code that deal with this firearms issue. They want to be able to go back to their Reform Party base and say that they are proposing amendments and want to have longer minimum sentences for gangs with firearms, and the separatists and socialists are standing in their way.

That is completely false, however. The Criminal Code already addresses this. The minimum sentences are in the Code now. This was a purely partisan manoeuvre by them in the parliamentary committee this week. But that did not prevent them from rising and making their stand here in the House. They convince themselves they are here to protect, when abolishing the firearms registry will make it easier to get guns.

That does not mean that there are no irritants in the system and we certainly have no intention of denying the administrative boondoggle caused by the incompetent Liberals who put the registry in place. The Liberals show their incompetence every time they introduce a program. They signed the Kyoto protocol, but instead of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 6%, they increased them by 30%. For them, it is always a matter of perception. Eddie Goldenberg, Jean Chrétien's former chief of staff, once said that the Liberals had signed the Kyoto protocol “to galvanize public opinion“. So it was just a public relations stunt. In this case, they brought in legislation to create a gun registry. The cost exceeded $1 billion. Let us think about that. Years later, it is still not quite done, it is very expensive and it is badly administered.

In Quebec, when the parental insurance program was brought in, it took no more than six weeks for the first cheques to be issued. That is good public administration, but people have a tendency to confuse bad public administration by the Liberals with the critical need to maintain the gun registry. True, there was incompetence in the way it was set up, but now that the registry is there, the argument is turning against the Conservatives. They are shooting themselves in the foot. They say that because of that incompetence, the registry has to be abolished. No, it cost too much money. Maybe the Liberals were incompetent in putting it in place, but it is there now. The last thing we want to do is to add insult to injury. Not only does the registry save lives, as was just shown, but it exists, it is there and it cost a lot of money. That is one more argument for maintaining the registry, for the sake of the taxpayers who paid for it.

There are people like Louis-Gilles Francoeur from Le Devoir, an avid hunter, who explains certain situations that may arise under the current legislation. For example, someone may drop a hunting rifle and damage it. That person may then have to borrow a rifle from a fellow hunter.

It could be a criminal offence if the papers were not handed on at the same time. This is the kind of thing which can be corrected. It is called an irritant. Removing it would never take away the obligation for one person or the other to register the firearms. There are fees. Are they too high? Perhaps. The question needs to be examined. Is there a way to make registering firearms easier and more accessible? We should make sure that there are more places where registration can take place or help can be obtained. All those irritants can be corrected. There is no need to abolish the firearms registry.

Some people in rural Canada are convinced that they are bearing the brunt of the problems in urban areas. However, the numbers given by my colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh tend to show that this not only a matter of crime in urban areas. Even in rural areas, access to firearms is too easy, and accidents, suicides and murders can occur.

I will never insist enough on the advice of the police chiefs of Canada, who are dedicated to public safety. They are supposedly the typical supporters for Conservatives, who boast about being the great defenders of law and order. It they believe that police forces must be listened to, can they for once walk the talk and listen to the police chiefs? I have a son who is now a father and who has been a police officer for 10 years. He is a sergeant in the Laurentian region. When he approaches a house to which he has been called for a case of domestic violence, I like to think that he knows if there are firearms on the other side of the door. I attended the funeral of Laval constable Valérie Gignac. I was there. She was shot at close range, through a door and through her bullet-proof vest. That is the reality of police officers in Canada.

In the name of law and order, instead of satisfying their desire to pander to their Reform base, will the Conservatives listen to Canada's police officers, who are unanimous in asking them to maintain the gun registry? It is a question of public safety, which is supposed to be the Conservatives' be all and end all, so they should listen for once. But no. This is exactly the same situation as last year. They introduced a private member's bill to impose a double sentence if a pregnant woman is the victim of crime. It was clear; I was sitting next to them and Conservative back-benchers openly said that their ploy was meant to re-open the debate on abortion legislation in Canada. It was patently obvious. It is always the same. Under the guise of doing something else, they try to introduce the policies and social objectives that stem directly from the Reform wing of what was once the Progressive Conservative Party. The word “progressive” was removed, and rightly so.

Eliminating the gun registry would be a clear step backwards for our society. We are up against one of the most powerful lobbies there is. The gun lobby is a well-oiled machine with solid financial backing. It has been operating across the United States for years, and it is now well established in Canada. Furthermore, it has its henchmen, the Conservatives, to do its dirty work here.

Persuaded by the wisdom of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, which supports maintaining the gun registry, the NDP members will rise in this House to say no to the Conservatives as they try to eliminate this tool to protect the public, and we will say yes to any amendment that could make this registry more accessible, simpler, more flexible and less expensive for our citizens, while guaranteeing the protection of Canadians.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Madam Speaker, perhaps my colleague from Outremont could pursue a bit more the attention we should be paying to the positions taken by the Canadian Police Association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

In that regard, I want to read from a letter that the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police sent to our leader, the member for Toronto—Danforth. The last paragraph of the letter concludes with this sentence:

All guns are potentially dangerous, all gun owners need to be licensed, all guns need to be registered and gun owners need to be accountable for their firearms.

The Canadian Police Association, in a letter to the leader of the official opposition, which has been made public, said:

We...consider the licensing of firearms owners and the registration of firearms to be a valuable public safety tool for front-line police officers.

That quote is from the letter from the association's president, Charles Momy. He referred to the most recent and horrific incident in Canada at Mayerthorpe, Alberta. It is little known but the two additional men who had been caught and now have been convicted of manslaughter were traced from a gun that was found at the scene which belonged to one of them. The gun registry mechanism was used to determine that.

I would ask my colleague from Outremont to comment more extensively on the attention we should be paying to the role the Canadian Police Association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police have played.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Madam Speaker, with regard to the chiefs, they are looking at it from the overall perspective of public security and public safety. They find that the gun registry is just that: a tool for public security. Viewed through the lens of public security, much of the work that we do here always has the same purpose, whether it is for food inspection or making sure that we have a registry in place to reduce the potential risks from firearms.

With regard to the front-line officers, that is an important point. I mentioned in French that unfortunately in the space of just over a year, I attended two funerals in Laval, which used to be my riding provincially in Quebec. One funeral was for a young female police officer in Laval, Valérie Gignac, who was shot through the door with a hunting rifle and the bullet went right through her bulletproof vest. That is the type of firearm that has to be controlled. I know that case very well, unfortunately.

If anybody thinks about it for just one second, if a police officer is approaching a home where there has been a signalling of a domestic dispute, that police officer is not going to be more or less careful depending on the existence of registered arms. They are always going to be careful, but it gives them just that little advantage, just that little extra prudence, knowing that there is a gun registered in that home. Perhaps they will wait that extra minute for somebody else to show up, to have a slightly different approach.

These are the apostles of law and order on the Conservative side. They preach about it all day long. It is interesting that the Canadian Chiefs of Police, with one voice, the representatives of Canadian police officers, with one voice, today in Quebec the representatives of all police unions, with one voice are calling upon this Parliament to maintain the gun registry in the interest of law and order and the protection of the public.

It is very interesting to see who is offside with the application of the principle of law and order. It is the Conservatives because they are dogmatic, they are ideologues and they are playing this whole thing to their Reform base. Shame on them.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member for Outremont on his excellent speech, but most of all, I would like to congratulate the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, who has been involved in this public safety policy for several years.

This public safety policy reminds us that registering guns is of vital importance because it enables police officers to make well-informed decisions when responding to situations in which such knowledge can make all the difference. I will talk more about that later.

As I listened to the members, I remembered that some of our fellow citizens sometimes say that all politicians are the same. Sometimes I hear that when I am meeting with my fellow citizens. Some people say that all of the political parties are the same too. People listening to today's debate—we will be debating this issue from 10:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m.—will become aware of a few things.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup. We will speak for 10 minutes each.

Today, those of our fellow citizens who think that all political parties are the same will see that there is indeed a difference. Some parties believe that it is neither a constitutional right nor a privilege to have a firearm. It is a responsibility that must be controlled. Of course, many people can own firearms and be completely responsible and diligent about it. However, that does not make it a right; it is a privilege.

For public safety reasons, we have asked our fellow citizens to register their firearms and to hold a possession licence. I just want to point out that, as my colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin said, there is no fee associated with registering. The fee is charged for the firearm possession licence, not for registration itself.

I would like to give only one statistic. For the fourth consecutive year, we are asking for a firearms registry including restricted firearms, but also, ideally, unrestricted hunting rifles. That is not insignificant. Since 2006 it has not been possible to prosecute hunters who own unrestricted firearms and who, for one reason or another, did not register them. They have been repeatedly granted amnesty. The Bloc Québécois is calling today for an end to the renewal of the amnesty for unrestricted hunting rifles.

Let us now take a closer look at the situation. I was a member of this House when the debate started with Mrs. McLellan, who was then replaced by Mr. Allan Rock. There were extremely passionate statements from both sides. At the time, my colleague Mr. Michel Bellehumeur was the spokesperson on this issue for the Bloc Québécois. My party had in mind the need for public safety.

What kind of judgment should we now make about the existence of this registry and the obligation to let the mandated authority know about the presence of firearms in a given place?

Since the registry was first created, some 20,000 licences have been cancelled, always for the sake of public safety. The individuals who lost their licence were believed for good reasons to be people who might misuse firearms.

I am not talking about revoking 1, 2 or 3 firearm licences but, rather, 20,000.

I also have a brother who is a police officer. He is my oldest brother and he was the biggest one when we were growing up. I came in second, and I hope no one doubts what I am saying. As we know, it is now harder to enrol in the police techniques program—and I hope I am not disappointing the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin when I say that—than to be admitted to the faculty of law. Fewer candidates are accepted in the police techniques program than in the law schools of major Canadian universities. Being a police officer is an extremely important responsibility. It requires judgment, intellectual dexterity, and the ability to think quickly. Being a police officer is not merely a matter of physical strength. Police officers are very important front line workers in our communities.

My brother is a police officer and I would not want to know that he has to intervene urgently in a serious domestic dispute. I think it is useful, necessary and critical to know whether there are guns in a house where an officer is sent. I was told about a case that I would like to share with parliamentarians in this House.

In the winter of 2003, officers from the Montreal police department had to intervene in a case of domestic violence. Quebec has a zero tolerance policy regarding violence, but we are even more vigilant in the case of domestic violence, because there is a very real risk of the situation deteriorating. The spouse who called the police department was afraid because her husband, who had been hospitalized, was now coming home. He was in possession of a real arsenal that included 26 handguns, 16 hunting weapons and 45,000 rounds of ammunition. Surely, it was important for the officers who went to that house to have this information. In this specific case, action was immediately taken to seize those guns. If the search had proven unsuccessful, the officers could have done some research. Thanks to the gun registry, they knew that this individual was in possession of the arsenal that I just described.

These are reasons that lead us to be very supportive of this initiative, as we have been since the very beginning of this debate, when Bill C-68 was introduced by the previous government. As parliamentarians, we do not have the right to question the existence of such a tool, or to remain passive when the government is contemplating to extend year after year the amnesty on hunting weapons, as if these firearms did not have a harmful potential, as if they could not kill someone, be used to commit a homicide, be discharged accidentally, or be used by someone who is suicidal. These are exceptional situations, but they do exist and they are very real.

I will conclude by saying that the issue of costs is not a good argument. Of course, the Bloc was here when these costs were estimated at $1 billion, and then at $2 billion. But the Auditor General confirmed to the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security that these costs are now under control, and she provided guarantees to parliamentarians. That is the kind of guarantee that we must have, and we have it.

I am concluding by congratulating my party for using its allotted day to put this issue before the House. I hope that all parliamentarians will support this motion from the Bloc Québécois.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Madam Speaker, what I have heard here is an example of an extremely flawed logic. It is the logic that got us into the mess of the gun registry in the first place.

The hon. member seems to believe that we should be targeting, with a giant bureaucracy costing over $1 billion, law-abiding citizens, citizens like the people who live in my riding of Fundy Royal, many of whom have never had a speeding ticket in their life. He wants to have a law that brings them into violation of the Criminal Code.

Yesterday we had an opportunity in the justice committee to target the real perpetrators of crime, target gang violence. Our government bill, which targets gang violence, was before the committee. It specifically targets the offence, which we all agree is a terrible offence, of drive-by shootings. Our bill has a mandatory minimum four year penalty for someone who commits a drive-by shooting but the hon. member introduced a motion that eliminated that mandatory minimum.

On one hand, we have someone saying that we should target the grandma and grandpa in my riding who happen to have a rifle or a shotgun, the people who have never been in violation of the law in their life, with a giant bureaucracy and bring the full weight of the federal government down on those people but do not target someone who has perpetrated the crime of a drive-by shooting. I do not understand the logic.

Could the member reconcile those differences?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Madam Speaker, the parliamentary secretary should be ashamed of his narrow-mindedness and demagoguery. How can he rise in this House and reduce this debate to mere bureaucratic considerations?

First, the member made a connection that is totally unfair. As a political party, we have always been opposed to mandatory minimum sentences being included in government legislation because they simply do not work. That is the first thing. Second, the gun registry and the amnesty in question for long guns, without restrictions, have nothing to do with bureaucratic realities. It takes someone who is pretty narrow-minded, who lacks human sensitivity and who personifies the most appalling conservative tradition to reduce this debate to mere bureaucratic considerations when the real issue that needs to be debated here is public safety.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Madam Speaker, a few weeks ago I went to see the movie Polytechnique, which will be shown here tonight and which is a painful re-enactment of the Montreal massacre that devastated the victims' families.

After that tragedy, in early 1994—I arrived in 1993—the legislators in this House began to look for solutions to these problems and to try to put in place as comprehensive a system as possible to keep unwanted guns out of circulation.

In rural areas such as mine, which are not exempt from the possibility of violence, especially spontaneous violence—domestic or family violence, for example—there has been a very significant reduction in the number of deaths caused by guns after the registry was established and the system implemented.

Today, the Bloc Québécois has a consensus to inform the government through the motion moved that states:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should not extend the amnesty on gun control requirements set to expire on May 16, 2009, and should maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety.

To ensure the effectiveness of registration, we must maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety. I believe it is important to be able to continue doing so.

This morning we heard from representatives of police associations, among others, who showed us how useful this tool is for police. It allows them to intervene in a much more sensible and logical way, and to have as much information as possible about the state of the people they will encounter and the potential presence of guns in a given situation. I believe we absolutely must be able to continue gong in this direction.

In the second part of my speech, I will attempt to debunk some of myths that exist around this. First there is the supposedly high cost of the gun registry. In her first report on this, the Auditor General of Canada, Sheila Fraser, indicated that costs of the gun control program have been under control since 2002. So that problem no longer exists. The annual costs of the gun control program has markedly decreased, from $200 million in 2001 to $73 million. What is more, while the program costs $73.7 million a year, the annual cost of registration is $14.6 million, or $10 million less than the upper limit of $25 million set in 2005-06. So that deflates the first argument: gun control is not all that costly, given the results it allows us to achieve.

Then there is the second myth: abolishing the registry would enable the government to save millions of dollars, which could be invested in more effective crime prevention programs. This is not so. According to the plan announced by the Conservatives, amendments to the registry to exclude long guns should allow the government to save a little over $10 million annually, because the registry would continue to operate for handguns and prohibited weapons. That is not enough money to fund better initiatives to reduce crime. In the end, the effect would be a negative one.

It is not true that abolishing the registry would allow the government to save millions which could be invested in more effective programs. The registry's very existence is an effective prevention program in itself.

According to the third myth, the Auditor General has supposedly indicated that the gun registry is useless. The Auditor General said nothing of the sort. She did identify certain flaws in the quality of the data contained in the gun registry. She did raise those points but she could not have made it any clearer as far as the registry's effectiveness is concerned: “We did not examine the effectiveness of the Canadian Firearms Program or its social implications.” The claim that the Auditor General indicated that the registry is useless is absolutely false.

It is important to dispel these myths because we are dealing with an issue about which the public hears all kinds of information, even things that have nothing to do with the reality. The motion brought forward by the Bloc today gives us an opportunity to dispel these myths.

Here is the fourth myth: there is an increase in violent crime, which shows that the registry simply does not work and that more effective measures need to be put in place. That is totally false. Even though the media coverage of violent crime may lead us to believe that the number of such crimes increases every year, the reality is totally different.

We see a disproportionate number of reports on violent crime in relation to what is really happening. In the 1990s, there was a steady decrease in crime in Quebec as well as in Canada. Statistics Canada even confirmed recently that, for 2006, the overall crime rate in the country was at its lowest level in more than 25 years. And that is not all. Quebec had its lowest homicide rate since 1962. Another myth dispelled.

The fifth myth is that gun registration is a long, costly and complicated process. That is not the case.

I am having a problem with my voice and I will have to end my remarks before my time is up. However, it has been shown that the situation has improved thanks to the gun registry.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Madam Speaker, I was not here when the member from New Brunswick and Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice asked the member for Hochelaga about expenditures and the fact that it is so costly. I would like to know if the member has heard about the Prime Minister coming to New Brunswick before the last election, to the riding where the registry is administered, and stating, with the local Conservative candidate, that nothing would change for the employees if firearms were no longer required to be registered. I would like to know if the member knew about it and if he had comments to make.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Madam Speaker, about the costs, we are being told to the contrary that the registry works well and that 7.1 million firearms are now registered, of which 90% are hunting rifles. On average the registry was consulted 6,700 times a day in 2006, and since December 1, 1998, a total of 1,125,372 firearms have been exported, destroyed, neutralized or withdrawn from the Canadian information system, therefore reducing the risk of a firearm being used.

It has been shown that, as far as costs are concerned, the system is now under control and that, indeed, to maintain the present moratorium introduced by the Conservative government would not save a significant amount of money, but would make the registry much less effective. The motion from the Bloc needs to be passed by the House, so we can move forward. The government must finally understand how important it is to make the firearms registry fully operational again.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary for Status of Women]

Madam Speaker, I am rising to debate the motion tabled by the hon. member for the riding of Marc-Aurèle-Fortin.

I am fully aware that the issue of gun control, like all crime-related issues, is of great importance to this hon. member and all the hon. members of the House.

The government has established a balanced approach to gun control in Canada, an approach that does not try to criminalize legitimate owners of firearms or to impose an additional burden on them.

Canadians and Quebeckers have, to a large extent, put their trust in this government because it has undertaken to stand up to criminals to ensure the integrity of and respect for victims’ rights. Our balanced approach is part of a comprehensive plan which also aims to make our streets and our communities safer.

The government has made major investments in crime prevention in the last three years and has provided law enforcement services with new and improved tools. The government is taking action against gangs and those who commit drug-related crimes. We are transforming the way that the justice system deals with criminals, while seeing to it that their victims receive all due respect.

Tackling the illegal use of firearms is one of the pillars of the government’s public safety agenda. We have introduced longer mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes, and we have put tough new rules in place for the release on bail of persons charged with a serious weapons-related offence.

We are also strengthening the police presence in communities to fight armed crime with the aim of increasing the safety of Quebeckers and Canadians and their families. As a woman and a mother, I support my government’s approach, particularly so that victims can finally hope to see the light of day and feel safe in our country.

We have invested $7 million annually in tightening up the front-end screening of first-time firearm licence applicants, in order to keep firearms away from untrustworthy individuals. Just recently, we tabled a bill which, among other things, creates a new criminal offence for drive-by and other intentional shootings that involve reckless disregard of the life or safety of others.

In addition to taking these long-overdue actions, the government has proposed fundamental changes to gun registration laws. As members know, it is our intention to take an approach that aims for effectiveness without imposing an additional burden on farmers, duck hunters and other law-abiding Canadians, coupled with specific measures to prevent gun crime.

For example, we are going to fund initiatives designed to strengthen front-line policing, border security and the fight against organized crime. We feel that the gun control laws have to target the criminals, not the thousands of honest Canadians and Quebeckers who use rifles or shotguns to protect themselves, hunt, and otherwise earn a living.

Our goal is to prevent criminals from getting their hands on guns, not to create bureaucratic nightmares and needless costs for legitimate owners of non-restricted firearms.

With this objective, the government has introduced a number of measures to make it easier for gun owners to comply with the existing legislative requirements, since firearms owners whose weapons are registered are subject to continuous eligibility screening.

The motion currently before the House, which was put forward by the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, seeks to eliminate one of these measures.

In 2006, the then minister of public safety announced a one-year amnesty period to shield from prosecution those owners of non-restricted firearms whose license had expired, provided that they take the necessary steps to meet compliance requirements again within that period. This amnesty period, which the member seeks to eliminate, has since been extended, and the government recently announced plans to extend it further, up to May 2010.

I should point out that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable.

This amnesty is one of several measures taken by this government to enhance compliance with the law. In 2006, the former public safety minister also announced that license renewal fees would be waived. In other words, individuals would not have to pay a fee to renew or upgrade existing licenses or to replace expired licenses. Those individuals who had already paid such fee were reimbursed. It is important to note that new license applicants are still required to pay a license fee. Like the amnesty, the fee waivers was extended for one year.

In May of last year, the government introduced yet another measure to support compliance through a regulatory amendment that enables individuals with expired possession-only licences to apply for a new license without taking the Canadian firearm safety course. Most of the affected individuals are over 50 years of age, and they often reside in rural or remote areas where access to training is limited.

Collectively, these three measures form a comprehensive regulatory package intended to increase compliance levels, and they appear to be working. In just three years, from 2006 to 2008, the rate of renewal of possession-only licences increased by 15%. The initiative introduced last year to make it easier to renew these licences led approximately 11,000 holders of expired possession-only licences to comply once again with the Firearms Act.

As I mentioned earlier, the government plans to extend these measures for another year, until May 2010, to give more people the opportunity to comply with the gun control measures in the act. That is the government's goal, and the members opposite should want the same thing. This extension will also allow the government to develop and introduce long-term measures to help increase public safety and reduce the administrative burden on gun owners.

As I noted at the outset, the government has taken a balanced approach to gun control. We are absolutely committed to protecting the safety and security of Quebeckers and Canadians while ensuring that law-abiding citizens are not subjected to unnecessary registration procedures for legally acquired, non-restricted firearms.

Unfortunately, the motion before us is not prudent. The measures proposed by the hon. member would unnecessarily criminalize thousands of farmers, hunters and rural residents who are responsible gun owners. We would do better to work to protect victims of crime in this great country of ours.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Speaker, I represent a very large region where many people have guns because they live in rural regions. I would say that the people in my riding are very responsible gun owners. They have had a lot of resentment about how the registry was implemented, and a lot of that resentment has been well founded.

However, I am concerned and responsible gun owners in my riding would also be concerned about the Conservatives' moves in claiming that they are going to deal with the gun registry through Bill C-301. It is being touted as a way of killing the gun registry, but when we look at the clauses in it, subclause 9(2) would make it easy to transport machine guns and assault weapons; subclause 9(1) would weaken transportation rules for restricted firearms; and clause 8 would allow individuals in illegal possession of prohibited handguns to keep them.

It seems to me that instead of presenting rural Canadians with a plan to deal with their resentments over the gun registry, the Conservative government is actually presenting a plan that would allow urban gangbangers to carry Berettas on the streets of Vancouver.

I would like to ask the member, if the Conservatives are very serious about the gun registry and addressing rural concerns, why does Bill C-301, which is their government bill, bring forward these kinds of provisions that allow machine guns, prohibited weapons and handguns to be carried, under the guise of claiming that they are going to help rural Canadians?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Speaker, we must make it perfectly clear that it is not all firearms that are concerned, but only long guns used for hunting. We on this side feel that gun control legislation needs to target criminals, not the thousands of honest Canadians who use rifles and shotguns to protect their property. Our purpose is to stop criminals and to protect victims, whom the NDP too often forgets about.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank our colleague for taking part in this debate but would ask her respectfully whether she will agree with me that, even if we are part of a pluralist society where everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, it is still the case that the gun registry is a measure that is extremely popular in Quebec. Our fellow citizens expect us to defend the integrity of this program. By allowing an amnesty for the fourth year in a row for long guns, she is suggesting that such weapons cannot be used in unfortunate incidents, and in cases of suicide and homicide. I do not think that logic will stand up to scrutiny.

Can she tell us, as a proud Quebecker and a person who subscribes to Quebec values—I have no doubt about her convictions—whether she will be supporting the Bloc Québécois motion, which would strengthen our friendship?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Speaker, I find this gentleman really very charming.

I will agree with him on several points. The gun and handgun registry remains in place. The demagoguery must stop and we must put in context what is true and what is not. The members across the way are trying to convince people that we want to do away with the registry completely. That is false. The gun and handgun registry is here to stay, and that is what we are saying on this side of the floor. As a woman, and a mother, I support my government's approach, because I feel it is time today to speak of the victims, which my colleagues over there never do. They are the ones we are thinking of, along with the many men and women in Quebec and in Canada who have long guns and use them within the laws of Canada. This is why the red tape needs to be reduced. We have to be guided by our hearts, our gut feelings, as well as our heads.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to also have the opportunity to take part in this debate on the motion moved by my colleague, the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin.

Quebeckers, like all Canadians, remember the tragedy that took place at the École Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989. We were all deeply affected by that incident, which, to this day, serves to remind us of the need to establish effective gun control measures and to understand the importance of fighting crime. Tragic incidents that have occurred in other places also remind many of us that much more needs to be done to fight crime and to ensure that guns do not find their way into the hands of people who pose a threat to the safety of our families, our streets or our communities.

The government has already done a great deal in this regard and we intend to do a lot more. I hope the motion moved here today is a sign that the members across the floor understand how important it is to implement effective measures for preventing crime and to cooperate with the government to get tough on crime, especially gun crime.

I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin for moving his motion, which, despite its good intentions, has some major flaws.

In fact, this motion seems to suggest to the government that it should abandon all the measures brought forward over the past three years to ensure that gun owners comply with current gun legislation—measures that enhance public safety and prevent gun crime, while ensuring that more gun owners are subject to continuous eligibility screening.

By abandoning these measures, more Canadians would be at risk of being the victims of gun crime and this would weaken, rather than strengthen, gun control in general.

We know now that many owners of non-restricted firearms, such as shotguns and hunting rifles—long guns—do not renew their licences when they expire, in large measure because of the cumbersome process established by the previous government, which turned out to be an administrative failure.

We also know that most of the people concerned are more than 50 years old and live in rural or remote areas, where access to training is more limited. Finally, we know from experience that only a small number of these people will comply with the firearms registration program, unless a special effort is made to facilitate registration.

That is why our government introduced a series of administrative measures in May 2006. We simplified the firearms licence renewal process by providing a temporary dispensation for two years and by looking into the renewal fees, and by reducing the fees that Canadians have to pay. As part of that initiative, people who had already paid the higher fee received a refund.

The government also declared an on criminal charges against owners of non-restricted firearms who take the necessary steps to comply with licensing requirements.

In 2008, we extended the amnesty period for another year, while undertaking measures intended to encourage a larger number of firearms owners to renew their licences and to register under the Canadian Firearms Program by allowing holders of possession-only licences to submit a new application. In that way, we eliminated the tedious requirement for experienced owners to take the Canadian firearm safety course to obtain a possession and acquisition licence.

What results did these measures produce? This targeted initiative led to an increase in compliance in some cases, even in the preliminary stage. For example, the renewal rate for possession-only licences increased from 50% to 65%.

Nearly 11,000 holders of expired possession-only licences are now in compliance with the federal legislative measures on firearms. There are more registrations under the Canadian Firearms Program. A greater number of owners of non-restricted firearms are in the process of renewing their licences, which involves ongoing verification of their eligibility.

The point of the review is to ensure that all known high-risk behaviour is automatically brought to the attention of chief firearms officers and law enforcement officers. More Canadians are being protected from potential gun crimes. That is what we were hoping to achieve with our initiatives and our commitment to implementing gun control measures. In light of these positive results, in March of this year, our government announced that it planned to extend these measures for an extra year until May 2010.

Our government is determined to ensure that our country has an effective gun control system. That is why we have taken the necessary measures to bring more gun owners into compliance with existing laws.

We are investing $7 million per year to ensure more thorough screening of people requesting an initial firearms permit and to keep firearms out of the hands of untrustworthy individuals. We have to make sure that firearms control measures keep guns out of the hands of those who threaten our communities, our safety and our lives.

Firearms control measures must enhance public safety and community safety by preventing dangerous individuals from obtaining firearms and by imposing serious consequences if they use them to commit crimes. That is what Quebeckers and Canadians want.

The government is committed to maintaining an effective gun control system while tackling the use of firearms for criminal purposes by getting tough on criminals. As such, I cannot support my colleague's motion because it would weaken gun control and expose us all to greater risk.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am trying to remain calm and impassive, but I hope you understand how disappointed I am.

First, I thought the minister was a dove in cabinet and espoused the values we are conveying today.

It seems to me that his speech is somewhat contradictory. I am not questioning the genuineness of his convictions, but I want to ask him how he can stand up in this House and say that the government wants to maintain an efficient system and work on the integrity of that system when, for the fourth year in a row, a whole slew of people will not have to comply with the renewal process and meet their obligations under the system.

Is there not something contradictory in his speech? Can he explain what is so administratively cumbersome about what owners of non-restricted guns and hunting rifles are being asked to do?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Speaker, I had no doubt that my colleague would remain calm. That is one of his best qualities, and it allows us to engage in worthwhile debates.

First, we have to address the whole problem. My colleague, like his party, tends to compartmentalize the debate and look at the gun registry in isolation.

The gun registry is an administrative disaster. In the past, the registry was a combination of overregulation and a waste of public money. It is inefficient, and we can still see that today. We need to go on from there and take action against crime.

We all have the same goal, which is to reduce crime and make Quebeckers and Canadians safer. Yes, unacceptable crimes are committed with guns, but we have to send a message, we have to impose tougher and longer sentences.

As well, as I said in my speech, control is needed when a person initially applies for a possession-only licence. We need to carry on along those lines. If the registry is too cumbersome, people do not comply with the law and do not renew their licences, and that is when we lose control. That is the problem.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Speaker, there is no question that a majority of folks in Kenora support the dismantling of the gun registry but that is not what today's debate is about. Clearly, there is a debate about dismantling the gun registry, and I expect that will come, but the singular issue today is extending the amnesty.

I would pose this question to my hon. colleague. Is it not true that in a province as great as Quebec, just like northern Ontario and many parts of the Arctic, there are particularly onerous aspects of this that must be worked out and that amnesty is one of the most effective ways of dealing with that until there is more certainty around the long gun registry?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mrs. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

I come from a rural area too. This weekend I attended the convention of the Quebec federation of anglers and hunters, which has 125,000 members. These people are law-abiding citizens. They believe in the conservation of nature and they use proper methods while living out their passion. Many farmers attended the convention as well.

Indeed, a cumbersome registration procedure and an ineffective registry tend to make people not want to register or to obey this law. This has a cascading effect and now, no licences are being renewed. These people are happy because someone heard their call. The aim of the registry is not to punish honest hunters and farmers. The government must always keep in mind the fight against crime. We must protect our fellow citizens. The first nations are in the same situation. I mention the hunters and anglers, because I just saw them just this past week-end. Their federation has 125,000 members in Quebec. But the concern is the same for the first nations.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion moved by the Bloc Québécois. I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Gatineau.

The motion reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should not extend the amnesty on gun control requirements set to expire on May 16, 2009, and should maintain the registration of all types of firearms in its entirety.

I will use my personal experience to explain my arguments with regard to this motion. I own long guns, am a hunter and now a guide because politics prevents me from practising the sport of hunting as I would like.

My friends know my position on the registry very well. When we go on a hunting or other trip, the vehicle is registered and so is the boat, quite often. We have hunting licences that we pay for before we leave. We have to report the game taken but we do not have to register the guns used to hunt. I have a great deal of difficulty with that.

By declaring this amnesty, the government is keeping the registry in limbo. That is the Conservatives' goal. They have always been against the gun registry and this is their way of ensuring that the system does not work. Much has been said in this House about duck hunters, among others. We should put the duck hunter myth to rest. You hunt ducks with a 12 gauge shotgun. That type of gun can be sawed off and used in armed robberies. We have to stop with the duck hunter myth. I want hunters to be seen as honest people. My friends and I are honest hunters. We use our guns to go hunting. These guns can be used for purposes other than the ones for which they are purchased and used.

I said I would refer to my personal experience. A few years ago, as legal counsel, I had to advise a couple that was separating. The husband owned guns. One of the wife's recommendations was that, given the couple's situation, the husband should get rid of his guns.

I met with the husband and assessed his condition. In my opinion, he was in no condition to have weapons in his possession. He agreed, but at the time of handing in his weapons to the Sûreté du Québec or court designated custodians, there were weapons missing. Good thing that the registry was there. The wife knew little about what weapons he might have owned. These are not easy situations, and people who are afraid of weapons do not go around their homes making a list of all their contents. If only for that reason, there has to be a way for those who enjoy hunting to feel comfortable. I speak with hunters and women, who are increasingly taking up hunting. People have to act responsibly. One responsible thing to do for those who practice that sport is to register all their weapons so that, should anything happen to the family or should their health deteriorate, they do not become a menace to those around them. That is reality, and that is acting responsibly.

I have a big problem with the Conservative line because, often, what the Conservatives talk about is the need to protect our property. I especially have a problem with it when defending our property requires us to arm ourselves. This means that, if the purpose for the long guns we buy is to defend our property, then they ought to be registered. In my notarial practice, I saw my share of disputes between neighbours, and I could not say that all neighbours deserve to own weapons with which to defend their property. We can see people making a big fuss over nothing and witness situations which are an absolute shame. Some neighbours feud over really trivial stuff.

I hope it is not Conservative ideology to say that when you keep weapons, they need not be registered because people have the right to protect their property. Not everyone protects their property the same way, and I find this worrying. What the Bloc Québécois is calling for is simple. Putting an end to the amnesty means telling all hunters that they will have to register their weapons.

Of all the friends I know and all the persons I have met as a regional member of Parliament, and although I have been lobbied by hunters’ groups, I have never had a hunter come up to me who had not registered his guns. But they were quite aware that a large percentage of their colleagues in western Canada, among others, had not registered their guns. It is not by chance that they have not registered their guns: it is because the Conservatives decided not to support this registry from the outset and are encouraging their fellow citizens not to register their weapons.

I have a problem with my Quebec colleagues when they support this philosophy, and I challenge them to talk to some hunters and ask they whether or not they have registered their firearms. They will find that in Quebec, 99% of citizens abide by the rules, have registered their guns, and have the necessary licences.

They have no difficulty, they have had no difficulty, apart maybe from a little at the beginning. In fact what they found most irritating was the fee to be paid, but that has been abolished, which is good. Those who wish to register their weapons may do so for free. Once again, it is our duty as responsible citizens to register our weapons if we want to practice a sport like hunting and keep those around us safe. If one day a problem should arise in our personal life such that people might have doubts about our capacity to use firearms, those people would be able to file the necessary complaints. In the case of a separation, weapons are often placed in the custody of a third party who keeps them until an authorization is obtained, and that is how it should be.

I have explained this situation to the citizens and hunters who have had the opportunity to talk to me. In Quebec, given that hunters’ firearms are already registered, the registry does not pose a problem. In fact it is working well.

Naturally, if you tell these people that the registry is going to be abolished, everyone will be in agreement. In my opinion, it is no fun to fill out a form, but once a hunter understands that a vehicle or a motor launch has to be registered when it is being used, everything is fine. The same applies for a hunting licence: it is necessary, so you have to register. You also have to report game taken. It is not clear to me why people do not understand the necessity of registering weapons.

That is why I am very comfortable about voting for the Bloc Québécois motion. I am happy to vote in this House against any law that would set aside the firearms registry, imperfect as it was when it was created. It is true that there was waste by the Liberals at that time, but that is the Liberals’ problem. There were repeated computer contracts, etc. They paid the price in Quebec and they will continue to pay it.

However, since the system was introduced, and because the representatives of law and order tell us they need this system, in my experience and from what I have seen, this register has not caused me any problems. Personally, I registered my weapons and I obtained the necessary permits, and I have no problem with it. Even though not all my friends necessarily like having their name registered, now that it has been done, they are reasonably accepting of the system. They understand very clearly that to be responsible we must register our weapons, just as we register a vehicle or boat or report game taken, and just as we need to obtain a hunting permit.

This system is well accepted. However, as long as the government decides that it is not interested in the system and lets it be known that there will be changes for long arms, it will not work. It is certain that there will always be people—especially in the west—who, from the beginning, have not registered their weapons, and who continue to oppose having this register in place. Often, as several Conservative colleagues have told us in this House, they will tell us it is to protect their property. Right away, I have a problem with the protection of property because not everybody protects their property in the same way.

So I hope that our colleagues will understand, especially those from Quebec. As far as those from the west are concerned, I understand that they do not understand. Nevertheless, our colleagues from Quebec should be able to follow our lead on this matter and to recognize the fairness and justice of what we are proposing.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Madam Speaker, through you, I would like to ask a question of my colleague, who spoke very eloquently. He just said something that opened the door to this question that I have for him. He said that car registration, or any other motor vehicle, is a provincial jurisdiction, that boat registration is a provincial jurisdiction, that dog registration is a provincial jurisdiction. Firearms registration is also a provincial jurisdiction. Civil law is the responsibility of the provinces.

Could the member answer me without letting his emotions get in the way? I understand the motion put forward by the Bloc, but would he be willing to let it go because, since civil law is a provincial jurisdiction under the Constitution, should it not be tabled in the Quebec National Assembly instead, which could maintain a registry without any involvement on our part?

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will start with a correction for my colleague: ships are under federal jurisdiction. That is the reality.

It is nonetheless true that even the Government of Quebec has asked the federal government to transfer to Quebec all of its powers for administration of the gun registry. Consequently, if my colleague really wants to come across as a good Quebecker, let him propose to his party that they say yes to what Quebec has been asking for since the very start: the transfer of all powers and charges relating to the registry, as well as all information contained in the registry to the Government of Quebec, to administer itself. Once again, we in Quebec are responsible.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Madam Speaker, could the member respond and perhaps give some explanation as to why the Conservatives are attacking something that police officers use over 9,000 times a day, that the Canadian Police Association has said is an essential tool for it in both protecting its officers and reducing crime? Why would the Conservatives be against something that the chiefs of police have said, time and time again, is so essential to the job they do?

Since the registry was introduced, gun violence has been reduced across every category. Could the member perhaps give his impressions as to why we see legislation such as private member's Bill C-301, which would undo so much of the good work the House has done in this area?