Debates of Dec. 13th, 2010

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Modernization Act

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that we are somewhat unclear as to what the final product is going to be. I get the impression that we have a very reluctant government that resisted attempts by officers to form a union, to the extent that they had to go to court at great expense. Now that the government has been court ordered to produce legislation, it has drawn up legislation in such a way as to make the final product to its liking.

As the member knows, opposition members have a majority on the committee. When the bill gets to committee, amendments will be brought in and hopefully passed to make certain that police officers themselves get the right to choose who their bargaining agent is. It might be one of the police organizations out there right now, or it might not be. And do civilian employees go the same route?

However, at the end of the day what the final structures look like will all depend on what comes out of the committee and how the structures get implemented. The members may decide at the end of the day not to form a union at all. They may decide that some other structure may be in play.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, it is always interesting to see NDP members stand up for our military or police officers. I know of situations when they stood up, for instance, when we wanted to arm border guards to stop criminals coming in. They suggested, instead of passing out service revolvers, that we pass out flowers at the border. That is one example of the approaches they take with our military, with no disrespect to the member.

First, I want to know clearly how many civilian members he has talked to and what the empirical evidence was that they brought back. Any good survey, as he knows, would have a good 1,000 members. I would like to hear from him how many members he talked to and what they spoke of in particular.

I want to remind the member that if he does not like the way committees are run, as he mentioned, opposition members have a majority on the committee and they can change it if they want. Clearly, he is trying to indicate that the government has control of these committees, which we do not. We are pushed around by opposition members on a constant basis and we have to continue to work with them to try to get through what our people have told us to get through, which is to get tough on crime and to supply our RCMP members.

This government stepped forward with pay to RCMP members and where was he for that? He voted against it. Clearly, he is trying to suck and blow at the same time.

I would like to know how many members he has talked to. I would like to hear some real evidence from him, not just an occasional letter read out.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to address that rambling, disjointed question in a moment.

The hon. member wants to talk about arming border guards. Just yesterday we had a Liberal member on the Roy Green radio show across Canada talking about how the government has spent $90,000 to train each border guard on how to use weapons. That did not even account for all the excessive cost involved in hotels. That was just the beginning, $90,000 per border guard.

The member may not know this, but in the last five or six years since the border guards have been armed, evidently there has been only one occasion when the border guards had to use the guns, which was a moose, I believe. They had to shoot a moose that was sick.

That is the government's idea of getting smart on crime. The Conservatives are the smart guys on crime. This is a government that in 1979 started sending pension cheques to prisoners in federal prisons.

Business of the House

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I ask for unanimous consent for the following motion:

That, notwithstanding any Standing Order or usual practice of the House, during the debate pursuant to Standing Order 52 later today, no quorum call, requests for unanimous consent or dilatory motion be received by the Chair.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to move this motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-43, An Act to enact the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Labour Relations Modernization Act and to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Modernization Act

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the reality is that we had a fairly reasonable debate going in this place until the last intervention. One of the things that is important for us to understand as a group is that the right of workers to organize is a charter right.

Here we have the government prescribing endless hoops for these workers to jump through, and police officers very surely are workers. If we look at the hours they put in and the duties they follow, they should have every right equal to any other citizen in this country.

The reality for me is that, looking at the bill and now hearing the member for Elmwood—Transcona talk about the committee, I am pleased to hear there will be some interventions at committee, because this bill has not been thoroughly thought out by the government.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is very nice to have an excellent question on the part of a member from our party on this issue. The fact of the matter is that this has not been thoroughly thought out. This has been a rushed job, as a result of a court order, on the part of a very reluctant government, which did not like the decision of the court in the first place and I think is now trying to stage manage the final outcome of the process to make certain that the members do not get, as the member said, their charter rights, their right to pick their own union.

Certainly there is the exposure with the civilian members, who obviously have not been thought about too much by the government. It is getting to the end of the session, and all session I have been asking the question as to when the government will tell me why Joe Clark and Don Mazankowski started sending pension cheques out, licking stamps, licking envelopes and sending pension cheques to prisoners in federal institutions in 1979. I want to see the studies. I want to know what studies Don Mazankowski and Joe Clark took part in to justify that decision, because now we have to clean up the mess—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order, please. I think we will move on to resuming debate. The hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand in the House of Commons to deliver some comments on what is a very important bill.

Many would ultimately argue that the RCMP is one of those iconic things here in Canada. Many individuals aspire to get into that profession, because it is a noteworthy, honourable profession to be in.

I also like the fact that I am following the member for Elmwood—Transcona, someone who I have known for a number of years, since 1988 I guess it would be. We sat on opposition benches for a good 11 years. I see he has not lost his touch. I look forward to having some exchanges with the hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona.

It is very important to recognize the need for labour relations and the important role that they play in the economy and our social fabric and how important it is that we move forward in trying to do what is right as legislators.

I know in the past we tried to provide comment on what is good legislation and make the suggestion that it at least be allowed to move forward, although we want to stop some legislation in its tracks. My understanding and quick reading of this particular bill is that there is merit for it to go to committee. We look forward to seeing it go to committee.

As has been pointed out, once the bill is in committee, opposing parties can work together to enhance the legislation and possibly make it better for our RCMP. That is a positive thing. I look forward to being able to see what type of amendments might arise from the committee stage.

On this issue of RCMP and law and order, I listened to the question from one of the members opposite to the member for Elmwood—Transcona. He talked about the government being tough on crime. When he said that, right away I kicked back into the byelection. In the byelection, that was a major issue. Crime and safety is something I hope to be able to talk about a lot as the days go on here in Ottawa and we are in session.

The RCMP has played a critical role, not only while on duty but also when off-duty, I will suggest. I would like to give an example of the type of dedication our RCMP officers bring to the table.

We see them in uniform. We see them in terms of what they do, particularly in Manitoba, in our rural communities, but also in our urban centres. Maybe what we do not see as much are the things the RCMP officers do during their off-duty hours. I have had the privilege of working with RCMP officers in their off-duty hours. I have had many opportunities to have discussions in terms of the types of contributions they make.

Ultimately I would argue that this is one of the reasons why it is when we debate legislation of this nature that we do need to give it time and to allow for it to go to committee. My understanding is, and I am not 100% up on all the rules of this chamber obviously, that it will go to committee where we will hear presentations and hopefully see some amendments brought forward.

Why I believe it is important, in good part, is that we need to return what we can to those officers who serve and serve us so well. One of the things I want to highlight is the off-duty responsibilities that many members, if not all, take.

I have had the opportunity to be involved with a youth justice committee. These youth justice committees have proven to be fairly successful if they are managed well. Provinces will in fact take advantage of them and incorporate them into the system.

On our committee we had a wonderful RCMP officer who has just recently retired. In the sense of commitment to volunteerism, this officer was fairly impressive.

I would encourage individuals as they start to think about how they want to see this bill develop going into committee to reflect on some of the volunteer efforts that our RCMP officers put in. I offer this as one example of the type of volunteerism that they provide.

In this particular case it was Al Pasquini, a retired individual who made himself available first in the community of Thompson, I believe, in northern Manitoba. He dealt with young offenders and tried to come up with alternative ways in which dispositions could be held for where they had committed a crime. He really put a face on the whole process of justice.

After years of serving with the RCMP in northern Manitoba he was relocated to the city of Winnipeg. Once he arrived in Winnipeg it was only a matter of weeks before he made contact with me and a couple of others and indicated that he wanted to continue doing volunteer work with young offenders. We were most happy to have him primarily because he was not only a great volunteer but he brought his expertise to the committee. He knew how to deal with young offenders first-hand and he understood why some of the crimes took place. He had the ability to communicate and follow through on the issues that were important in terms of dispositions for justice committees. He had so much to offer.

All RCMP officers have phenomenal skill sets that are underestimated in terms of their importance and the role that they play. That is the reason why I would suggest that when we look at this legislation it is defined in the sense of when an RCMP officer is on duty, but that is only a part of it.

For many RCMP officers volunteering is a way of life. I see Al Pasquini as one of those individuals who has dedicated his life to being an RCMP officer. To say that he worked 60 hours a week would probably underestimate the actual number of hours that Mr. Pasquini worked. Knowing other individuals within the RCMP I would say that Mr. Pasquini was not alone. This is the type of dedication RCMP officers bring to the table and at the end of the day this dedication is of great value to all of us. I was the chair of one of the committees on which Mr. Pasquini sat. We benefited because of his expertise and his willingness to volunteer.

There is also the issue of what RCMP officers do during the work week, during their shifts. They put themselves in potential danger seven days a week, 24 hours a day, in order to ensure that we can feel safe in the environments in which we live. I suspect that the House would unanimously agree with me about the dedication shown by our RCMP officers with respect to the type of work they do and the benefits our communities receive as a result.

I have had the opportunity to quickly go through Bill C-43 and I feel it is a bill of great value. We should be looking for ways to improve labour relations between RCMP staff and management. I understand that the government did not volunteer to bring in this legislation. It was forced to bring in this legislation because of a court ruling and somewhat grudgingly brought this bill forward. For whatever reasons the bill is before us today. I do believe that the government has the responsibility to approach it with an open mind once it gets to committee.

I know from the Manitoba legislature that we often got presentations dealing with legislation that we had brought through, and I anticipate that there will be presentations that will be coming to committee for this bill. I look forward to hearing those presentations, or at least participating in that process, because it is an interesting profession. I have always admired the red coats and the roles that they have played. I made reference at the beginning of my comments to what an important symbol the RCMP is for Canadian society.

I have not had, I admit, the discussions with the RCMP officers or the rank and file as to what they feel about the legislation. I have a feeling that we will have some time, maybe not very much time, to be able to do that, and I look forward to having that dialogue. Knowing that this bill could in fact be passing at any point in time, I thought it would be nice just to be able to get up and comment on that today, but also to take the opportunity to emphasize something that has come out of the federal byelection, and that is the whole issue of crime and safety.

Crime and safety was in fact the number one issue in Winnipeg North, and I would suggest it even goes beyond Winnipeg North. Our RCMP do play a critical role in that and we need to look at ways in which we can improve and support our forces, whether it is the RCMP or the local police forces, because it does make a difference.

I suspect that establishing a new labour relations regime would go a long way in terms of just being able to ensure that there is a higher morale among the rank and file officers. That is something in which all sides can win. We do not have to be fearful of unions and organized labour. Organized labour does play a very important role in our society and I suspect that affording the opportunity for the RCMP to make that determination among themselves is something that they will take very seriously, and at the end of the day, I suspect that if we provide them the opportunity it will only be a question of time before it is acted upon.

There needs to be some consideration given in terms of the whole issue of strikes and what would happen in strike situations. There are all sorts of issues related to arbitration. Labour relations can get complicated at the best of times in terms of trying to come up with the compromises and consensus that are necessary. Ultimately, the rank and file might feel better knowing that they have a labour group that has that vested interest to protect the rank and file's interests. That is why, as we are looking at Bill C-43 today, I do not see any reason why the bill should not be going to the committee. By allowing it to go to committee, hopefully we will be able to hear from other members as to what they feel might be amendments that would enhance the bill.

I have had some experience in minority governments from 1988 to 1990, and what I have found is that minority governments can work if in fact the government is willing to look at good ideas and is prepared to compromise.

So I would look to the government benches and appeal to the government to look at ideas that might come from whatever political entity within this chamber and, ultimately, adopt good ideas.

I suspect, I hope and I trust that at the end of the day ideas that might come from the official opposition would in fact be considered and we would be able to garner the support in order to see it passed.

Obviously, if we all believe in the value of our RCMP, I do not understand why it is that we would be reluctant about trying to make this legislation even that much better, that much stronger, because the better we make the legislation, the more effective it would be. And at the end of the day, how would we lose if we have more value in legislation such as this so that our RCMP are feeling that much better and confident in terms of the House of Commons providing the type of support that they need?

I believe, in good part, many members of the RCMP rank and file want to see legislation of this nature. I suspect it has been a long time in coming. Now that we have it here today, it is only a question of how it is that we might possibly modify it. However, at the very least, I see no harm in having the bill go to committee so that we can ultimately see what could be done to maybe even make it even a bit better legislation so that, at the end of the day, the biggest winners here would be our citizens, followed by the RCMP rank and file. This is something that I believe is important to all of us, that we want to have as much harmony as possible within the police ranks. We know that at times the current government's record, in terms of providing harmony, has been lacking as it has, in essence, created controversy. However, I will leave that possibly for another time.

I am thankful for the opportunity to say a few words on the bill. I do look forward to being able to provide comments on other justice-related legislation as we get closer to the issue of the tough on crime type of bills. Members will find that I am very opinionated because at the end of the day what I have seen is a lot of talk about tough on crime, but I can say that in the last five years it has not gotten any better, in terms of crime and safety in many areas of Canada, in particular, in Winnipeg North. I think people want to see action as opposed to words. It is more than just legislation. It is about engaging people. It is about looking at the laws that we currently have. It is about providing programming. There is so much that can be done on that particular front, but I will save that speech for another time.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the member for his first speech in the Parliament of Canada. As he has indicated, I have known him now for a while. I was elected in 1986 and he was right behind, in 1988. He certainly fulfilled a very difficult role over the years in the Manitoba legislature, at one time or another, being the only member in the entire House from his party or maybe one of two. He certainly knows how to survive in a jungle, and this is just a bigger jungle than the one he has just come from. However, I do wish him well here.

I want to ask him about the civilian members. I have had representations from various civilian members of the RCMP about this bill, indicating that they have not been consulted, that it is not well thought out, and that the whole process is not very helpful to them. I would assume that the member has been getting the same sort of representations from his office. So I would just like to ask him to expand on that aspect, or any other aspect that he wants to, regarding this bill.

However, my main purpose was to congratulate him on his first speech in the House and I really wanted to be the first person to ask him a question.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, first, when ministers bring in legislation, they have a responsibility to go out and consult with all the stakeholders. We in opposition like to think they do their homework, that they do the consultation. Much like when I addressed the issue in my comments on the bill, I indicated that I did not really get the chance to talk to some RCMP officers in regard to it, and it is only because of timing, but I will talk to them.

Most important, I believe we all have a role, but especially the minister who brings in the legislation. I am not naive to believe that every minister does his or her job. I have witnessed many provincial ministers who failed to do proper and adequate consultation prior to bringing in legislation.

I would hope and trust that the government has done the consultation. Whether it is with civilians who work within the RCMP, or the volunteers who work in the RCMP, or the RCMP rank and file or the lay Canadian, there is a wide spectrum of stakeholders. If the minister has not done that consultation, chances are will find that out during the committee stage and it will amplify mistakes and ultimately provide a forum for members to be critical of government.

If I were to find out no consultation was done, I would be a little upset, as many people would be.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to welcome the new member and congratulate him on winning the election.

I would like to hear more from him about minority government. When he was talking about how it should work it was music to my ears. However, there must be a little naïveté about the whole thing, and I still retain mine. I have noticed that it is extremely hard to function properly with the way things are now. That said, I understand that he is brand new.

At the first opportunity, would he be prepared to defeat the current government to ensure that we can focus on what really matters?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, at the end of the day, there is a responsibility to work as effectively as one can in opposition. I had experience between 1988 and 1990 in terms of working in minority situations. Ultimately political parties will do whatever is determined in the best interests of the different stakeholders which they represent.

I like to think the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada has done an exceptional job over the last while in terms of going out and consulting with Canadians, more than other leader inside this chamber, whether it is the express tour, the “Open Mikes”, townhall on Internet and so forth. I suspect the government will fall, or it will call the election when it calls the election. The point is when we have legislation here, we have a responsibility to do the best we can in terms of coming up with ideas that could improve it. Hopefully government has the wisdom to see good ideas and allow them to pass.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, like everyone else, I join my colleagues in welcoming the new member for Winnipeg North. I have been here for six and a half years and I do not want to talk to him like he is the rookie because he has been in politics since 1988. Therefore, I am the rookie asking him a question.

In regard to police morale, I have noticed that over the last while the morale has gone down in certain areas. I am from a rural riding and the member is from an urban one. We have predominantly the force representation from the RCMP, so this debate is quite germane to my riding.

Earlier I spoke about single member detachments and I would like to ask the member about that. Dealing with the police and the police associations involved with those police, because I assume it is mostly city police he deals with, how is the morale today? Is it the same as it was?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a very good question and I appreciate the kind words. The member is the one that has the experience at this end.

When we take a look at the morale, whether it is RCMP, Winnipeg Police, I do not believe the government has done a good job in terms of improving their morale. Why I say that is if we ask a police officer or a RCMP officer what do they need today, they will tell us there is a need for additional policing. The government made a commitment for additional policing. I do not know the exact number. I think it was 2,000 or so officers or somewhere around there. The commitment was made to increase the hard resources of just personnel. That has never materialized.

I do not believe the government has done what it could have done to improve morale, such as in legislation such as this. I do not believe the government has really done what it could to protect the integrity of the RCMP. One could get into the whole issue of the gun registration and how supportive the government of the day has been with regard to that.

At the end of the day, the government has done nothing to improve the morale. If it were not for that natural instinct for our fine officers in uniform to do so well, it would be a lot more challenging. However, because of the good work they do and their sense of commitment, we can feel relatively safe and comfortable in knowing they do the very best they can, given the circumstances in which they are.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague before me said, Bill C-43 should go to committee, but I personally have some problems with it. The RCMP rank and file need to be given voice, not be forced to take direction from the government in the way members may or may not want to be represented.

One of the faults of one of the options in the bill is giving the commissioner of the RCMP more power and that staff relations representatives would have to report to the commissioner. I can see nothing but problems with that kind of proposal.

There were three concerns that led the Ontario superior court to find that the RCMP staff relations representative system was invalid. First, RCMP members had not had the opportunity to decide whether the SRRP was the system in which they wished to associate for labour relations purposes. In other words, they did not make a decision on that through a voting process. Second, the staff relations representative system was not sufficiently independent from RCMP management. Third, while RCMP management listened carefully to the views of staff relations representatives, it retained the ultimate decision-making authority in the SRRP consultative process.

Those are the three concerns that led to the Ontario superior court finding that the RCMP staff relations representative system was invalid. I wanted to lay those facts on the table.

After the superior court's decision, staff relationship representatives decided to comprehensively assess the labour relations needs of RCMP members and their satisfaction with the current SRRP through a quantitative study. Pollara Inc., an independent polling firm, was engaged for that assessment and 6,147 members took part in the survey. The survey has produced reliable and accurate information that can now be used to improve the SRRP to better serve the 22,000 RCMP members and address the superior court's concerns.

It also found that 65% of RCMP members who expressed an opinion were satisfied with the system and 71% of RCMP members preferred to associate in either the current SRRP or a modified version of it. I believe every member of Parliament received a copy of that Pollara report.

It is clear that the wishes of the very strong majority of the 22,000 of RCMP members were not reflected in this bill in total.

Let me be clear. Contrary to the ruling of the Ontario superior court, Bill C-43 would offer no real choice to RCMP members for how they wanted to be represented, either in a union or non-union model of representation. It is either a union or a body established by the RCMP commissioner.

Maybe there are some other alternatives that need to be considered, especially after the staff relations representatives went to their members and looked at potentially different ways of doing it. In committee that discussion can be held and if there are alternatives or other views brought forward that relate more to what the rank and file prefer, then that is the value of the bill being before committee. I hope the committee is open-minded enough to look at all the alternatives at play.

There is a feeling out there, accurate or not I am not entirely sure, that the bill could split the RCMP's existing membership into regular, civilian and special constable bodies. Some of the representatives from my province have made that very clear to me, especially those from the civilian sector of the RCMP.

As a result of this legislation, the RCMP could be treated like any other public sector union. That is one of the possibilities. That means labour groups, like PSAC, would use it as a benchmark in contract negotiations.

Finally, Bill C-43 also endangers, according to some within the RCMP, hard-fought benefits currently held by RCMP members.

There are some very strong concerns being expressed by current staff relations representatives. They are finding that the bill as currently proposed is unacceptable to a fairly strong majority of the RCMP members across the country.

The staff relations representatives informed me that they believe the RCMP is at a crossroads and faces a number of difficult challenges, especially with respect to leadership and representation. Canada's police force does not need further uncertainty and more distractions.

Members of the RCMP would certainly prefer to be focusing their energy on improving public safety rather than worrying about whether the federal government will impose a union on them.

I would also say to those RCMP members that it is critical they involve themselves in this hearing process and make their views known, because if this new system is going to work with an important police force and everything its members do nationally and internationally, and the fact that they are seen as such a model for the country, they need to involve themselves in these discussions and make their voices heard. At the end of the day, whether it is this specific legislation or improved legislation, the rank and file, certainly the majority, have to be in accommodation with this legislation.

From their perspective, Bill C-43 would create some significant problems. It is a top priority for the staff relations representatives and the membership of the RCMP. The members of the RCMP have been represented by the staff relations representatives for the past 36 years on all issues affecting members' welfare and their dignity as a force.

The current staff relations representative program is non-union representation, but in the main it has worked reasonably well. An alternative or somewhat of a take on the current system is not in this bill as it is currently written.

I would refer MPs to the RCMP magazine, Frontline Perspective, which I think has gone to most offices. In the 2010 issue, volume 4, number 2, there is a major article about Bill C-43 from representatives of the RCMP.

I want to read a couple of paragraphs from the article. I would encourage members to read the magazine article. It goes through the bill in detail. It talks about some of the good parts, some of the bad parts and some of the questionable parts of the bill.

It does show that the staff relations representatives who have written the article are into the debate in doing a critical analysis of the bill. We as members of Parliament have an obligation to take this seriously, to listen and analyze, and hopefully improve the bill as a result.

I quote from the article written by Brian Roach and Abe Townsend on page six of Frontline Perspective:

The Staff Relations Representative Program has developed through consultation with its membership a clear alternative to Bill C-43. The program forwarded this to its membership on September 29, 2010 and is noted below for your information, reference and discussion at this time.

The legislation limited the options to either a union or a body appointed by the Commissioner. This was clearly unacceptable based on the results of the recent survey of members' wishes. We have shared this document with government officials and have included it here for your feedback.

This document is not a done deal. It is simply a proposal that we would like your input on. The SRR Program believes that it reflects your views while respecting the Charter of Rights. We urge you to review this document and other associated material.

I am not going to read the whole article; I think members can do that. There is certainly mixed views on this. There is certainly mixed views within my own party and with my colleague, who will speak next. I think that is what this place is all about. It is all about debate and discussion.

To close, I have tried to outline some of the concerns that have been expressed to me by the rank and file of the RCMP and staff relations representatives. These are serious concerns.

The bottom line for me, having been a former solicitor general, is if the system is going to work, we certainly do not want all the power and authority within the commissioner's office. At the end of the day, for the system to work well, the rank and file have to be onside with how their views can be represented and brought forward, whether it is management administration within the force itself, or whether it is bringing forward issues from a policy perspective that the RCMP believes government should adopt and move forward with.

I will close with that, but again, if members want to get a very in-depth analysis of one side of the argument, I refer them to what I consider to be a very well researched, well done and quite open-minded critical analysis of Bill C-43 by the staff relations representative body of the RCMP itself.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of things I have noticed over the while.

First, one of the reasons morale has gone down so badly in the RCMP is the appointment of a civilian member as commissioner. I would like the member's view on whether a civilian commissioner should be given additional powers over the rank and file of the RCMP as well as senior management. It scares the living daylights out of me that this particular commissioner could have additional powers.

Second, in 2008, the member well knows that the pay council of the RCMP negotiated a 3.5% increase in salaries for 2009 and on. Unfortunately, I believe on December 21 or 23, in an email from Treasury Board to all RCMP members in the country, that pay increase was rescinded and the increase was changed to 1.5% with no consultation whatsoever. If we wonder why RCMP members want to unionize, it is to stop this nonsense happening with a dictatorial process of the government of the time.

Instead of being proactive, the government has reacted to a court decision. We firmly believe that the RCMP should be allowed to join the association or union of their choice if that is what they so desire. Other aspects of the RCMP and the civilian members can decide on their own if they wish to unionize or have an association. This would be the true democratic process.

I would like the member's comments on whether the RCMP should be allowed to determine for themselves who should represent their issues when it comes to negotiating pay and benefits with the Government of Canada.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, there were a number of questions in there. I believe it is the rank and file that should make the decision.

I want to make it very clear, and I targeted my remarks at the current staff relations representative system, that option is not in there. If members of the RCMP decide they want to go to a union, then that is their choice. If they want to go to somewhat of a take on the current system and maybe report to Treasury Board and not the commissioner, that should be their choice too, but the current bill only allows two choices, either unionize or report to the commissioner of the RCMP.

The hon. member asked should the commissioner have more power than he currently has. In my view, absolutely not. That is my personal point of view. It would be giving the commissioner too much power. If an individual has a problem within the system, somebody who is a staff relations representative has to report to the commissioner, but the commissioner is the person's boss. It makes no sense at all. No, there should be no power to the commissioner of the RCMP.

From my point of view, the Government of Canada made a terrible mistake in not appointing a commissioner from the rank and file. The next time it appoints a commissioner of the RCMP, it should be from the rank and file.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I know that the hon. member for Malpeque, as a former solicitor general, has a bit of experience in this area.

I have followed this case for some time. In fact, I have had several bills doing what the government apparently is not prepared to do, and well before the MacDonnell case.

Very specific to this point about the power of the commissioner, would the hon. member enlighten this House as to whether or not what the government proposes falls short of the test in MacDonnell, which of course requires that there be an offset at the very least to the power of the commissioner? That offset would be a form of collective bargaining or the right for individuals, rank and file members of the RCMP, to have more than what they have currently, which amounts to a management-run union.

I am wondering if the hon. member could give us his opinion as to whether or not the test, the demand and the requirement of 18 months would probably fail as a result of the government monkeying around with legislation and wording.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I could not agree with the member more. I am not sure of the number of bills the member has put forward, but probably there is no other member in the House who has put as much effort into putting legislation forward that would deal with some of the problems that members of the RCMP felt were occurring to them. The member had the courage, did the research and did the drafting to put that into legislation.

The government took parts of that. For whatever reason it did not take the whole package, and some critical areas were missing. That is, as the member said, the kind of off ramp where it would not be a management-run union. It would allow the rank and file a ways and means of having their say without fear from management, but being able to represent themselves as rank and file members, expressing their points of view, expressing their complaints into a system without fear of retaliation as a result.

Those very important aspects of the member's work were left out as the government took what it desired and drafted this piece of legislation that is called Bill C-43.