House of Commons Hansard #9 of the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was percenters.

Topics

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member is forgetting in his discourse the pieces that were sent out by the Conservative Party accusing members of the Bloc of supporting pedophiles. Perhaps he overlooks or has forgotten pieces that were sent out by the Conservative Party calling Liberal members anti-Semitic.

I do acknowledge that the government spends a huge amount of money in self-promotion and patting itself on the back but I would hardly hold that out as something to be proud of or something that should be laudable.

The member spent his entire speech talking about how these ten percenters are wrong and how they are misused and then concluded by saying that we should continue them. That seems a rather bizarre conclusion given his speech.

My question is very simple. If he has a problem with these and feels that they are being used in a partisan way to attack people, and I agree with the minister who spoke earlier that we should allow free speech, but who pays for it? Why are taxpayers being left on the hook?

If the hon. member disagrees with this practice and thinks that everything he said in his speech about it being too negative is true, then let us just end it.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, ten percenters play an important role in our democracy. It is a very important way for us to communicate with our constituents. It is a cost effective and cost efficient way as well. Ten percenters are sent out by the kilogram. They are not addressed to specific constituents. It is by far the most cost effective and efficient way for us to communicate with our constituents.

The hon. member may not like what he sees in some of the ten percenters but I can tell him that these are quotes from colleagues in his party. If they do not like the quotes, they should stop saying them. If they do not like the facts, they should change them. If they do not like the policies of their party, they should change them as well.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, what is strange to New Democrats about this motion is that we attempted, through our House leader, to move an amendment that the Liberals found distasteful for some reason. I would like my hon. colleague's opinion. We asked that the ten percenter mail-out program be continued but that it not be allowed to include the attacks that have caused so much grief.

I join with some of my colleagues in the Liberal Party who say that some of the odious attacks have been made by the government, in particular accusing my friend from Montreal of being anti-Semitic, a gentleman who has based his entire career on fighting for the rights of the Jewish people both here in Canada and abroad. I do not know if it shows a lack of thoughtfulness on the government's part or the absolute idiocy of some of its writers. For the Conservatives to attack that particular member as anti-Semitic strikes many of us in this place as the government members continuing to make fools of themselves through this program.

The amendment that the NDP attempted to move today was: That, for the purpose of communicating with the public in other ridings on public policy matters, as long as such ten percenter mailings do not engage in negative attacks on another member or their political party. Does it seem like a reasonable limit to the ten percenter mail program for my hon. colleague to would allow MPs to communicate on issues of substance with Canadians both in their ridings and outside, but limit communication so they do not become taxpayer-funded attack ads on other members who were elected honourably by their constituents?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague suggests that we introduce a level of censorship in free speech in this country and I do not think that is worthwhile. It is up to Canadians to decide what they want to read and what they do not want to read. It is not up to us to tell them what they can and cannot read. I do not agree with the hon. member's suggestion that we introduce a level of censorship on ten percenters.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

NDP

Jim Maloway NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, clearly the member is of the belief that the best defence is offence because he spent almost his entire speech ignoring what the actual motion is about.

The motion is about what the government is spending on government advertising, on the use of government aircraft, on external consultants, on the size of cabinet and on the size of the PMO and Privy Council, for a total of $1 billion. When will it address the contents of this resolution or has it been told to duck, cover and hide for the rest of the afternoon?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asks what this money is being used for. I can tell him that it is being used to advise Canadians about important issues, such as the home renovation tax credit so that Canadians could take advantage of it before the deadline. We advised first-time homebuyers—

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

You didn't want to extend it this year?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

Why did you cancel it?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

—about the homebuyers plan RRSP withdrawal option. We advised Canadians about the tax-free savings—

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, what a shame.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, we cut you off.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order, please. I hope all hon. members will afford the member for Mississauga South the courtesy that we extend to all members when they give speeches and wait until the question and comment period to make remarks. The Speaker would appreciate being able to hear the member.

The hon. member for Mississauga South.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, let me start by asserting that we are all in a profession that is not held in high esteem. It is earned not only by our actions but our inactions. In this regard, there is a proposal before the House for us to take some measure of action that will indicate to the Canadian public that this place is sensitive to the needs of the people.

Governments themselves do not have money. We are the custodians of the taxpayers' money. We are judged on whether we make good, wise decisions and good laws. The motion before this place today is a proxy for virtually everything that has ever happened in any government by any party. We have been talking all day long about which party did what and who was at fault. It has been a rambling debate. I think the people who come to this place and sit in the gallery must wonder what is happening in our Parliament.

Why is there a question on the floor that is not getting the attention it deserves, at least in the generic sense? It is about whether we should be dealing with waste and mismanagement. As one member just said, at a time when the country is facing economic duress and high unemployment, we have an obligation as parliamentarians to constantly be prudent with the use of taxpayer dollars.

Today there is what is called an opposition motion. It is a motion proposed by one party. We are debating it today and tomorrow we will vote on it. I do not think that it is all-inclusive in its precision but it is all-inclusive in its intent. For those who may have forgotten what we are debating today, this motion reads:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should show leadership in reducing government waste by rolling-back its own expenditures on massive amounts of partisan, taxpayer-paid government advertising, ministerial use of government aircraft, the hiring of external “consultants”, and the size of the Cabinet, the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office, which together could represent a saving to taxpayers of more than a billion dollars;--

It is a long ramble but it says that there is an opportunity here. I do not think it is all going to happen, but it does raise a premise. It goes on:

—and to show its own leadership in this regard, the House directs its Board of Internal Economy to take all necessary steps to end immediately the wasteful practice of Members sending mass mailings, known as “ten-percenters”, into ridings other than their own, which could represent another saving to taxpayers of more than $10 million.

For the ordinary constituent in our ridings, when we start talking about billions and millions of dollars, this is important. However, we know that, in terms of the finances of the nation, what we do with billions of dollars is where we start. It is tens of billions of dollars. We are talking about the delivery of essential programs and services to Canadians. If people cannot manage $10 million properly, how can they be trusted? We need to be sensitive to the fact that it is an issue of trust.

I am in my 17th year in this House and I still fight each and every day for fairness and equity for people, for prudence, for due diligence and for making good laws and wise decisions. We say that prayer every day when we come to this place before we start. Every now and then, there is no question, pick a party, a government or a time right back to the beginning of time, and it will be found that people have made bad decisions.

People have done bad things and wrong things. They have mismanaged money and squandered resources, which is why our profession is not held in high esteem. However, just because that may have been the case, it does not mean that members need to rise here and continue to add to that perception of what members of Parliament stand for.

We have before us an opportunity to indicate there is something we can do on a specific range of issues. Is there some openness to say these are the kinds of things we might be able to do?

I could stand here and go through a litany of all the things the current government has done that I am not happy about, but I am not sure if that advances the argument.

I could talk about the government's treatment of income trusts, breaking a promise it made during the 2006 election and imposing a 31.5% tax. That is a problem. That is a broken promise. That party will have to bear the consequences of that.

There are other consequences to the decision made by the Conservative government. Since that decision was taken, there has been a sale of, I believe, 25% of income trusts in Canada to foreign interests. It has lost revenue to the treasury of the government of the people of Canada, revenue of about $1.5 billion annually in taxes.

That tax comes fully into force on January 1, 2011. Over the next few months, the other 75% of income trusts will probably be finding out how they can morph themselves into another entity, whether it be back to being a corporation or maybe even bought offshore, which will cost us even more. Yet the argument for taxing them in the first place happened to be that there was a tax leakage.

This is the first time I ever remember being involved in a government's providing documents to the finance committee that were redacted, blacked out. The government made a decision. It wants to be accountable, but it will not show us the numbers. I am not sure why, but it is a matter of state secrecy.

If we want to talk about state secrets I suppose we could talk about Afghan detainees, but I do not think we should be talking about that.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Or the $400 million?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Or the Somali inquiry?

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Does the member want the floor, Mr. Speaker? If he would like to speak—

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

An hon. member

And you never heckle.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy—

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. There will be a 10-minute question and comment period when the member for Mississauga South has finished. If members could just hold off until then, I am sure they will get a chance to ask the member their questions.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, what we are debating is not simply a matter of dealing with waste and mismanagement. It is a matter of trust. It is a matter of character. It is a matter of doing the right thing.

I remember asking a question last week that made me think about this issue of character. It is not just the character of the current government; it is the character of each and every member here. It is to deal with the issue that, when people do something, they must be accountable.

I once defined accountability this way. People are accountable when they explain and/or justify their actions or decisions in a manner that is truthful, plain, clear, concise and correct. In simple terms, it says they tell the truth even if they have taken a decision to break a promise, a decision they believe is the best thing, in the best public interest. They explain it, disclose it, do not hide it, do not cover it but put it out on the table.

One member was talking about a $56-billion projected deficit for the current fiscal year, which ends March 31, and we have a five-year budget that is going to almost balance by that time. However, the budget speech and the throne speech said that we will not balance the books on the backs of pensioners or by raising taxes. The Minister of Finance rose in this place and said those words.

However, accountability has to kick in, because we know that the people who purchased income trusts to emulate a pension plan, to get that annual cashflow, all of a sudden were hurt very badly.

We also have a case where we are increasing the tax on income trusts by 31.5% effective January 1, 2011. We are increasing employment insurance premiums by 9% in the first year and up to 15¢ each year thereafter for the employee and 21¢ for the employer. It is something like $13 billion of taxes.

What do the government members say? Employment insurance is not a tax. That is a service. That is to get EI benefit.

The government is also increasing the traveller's tax. We have the income trust tax, the EI tax, the traveller's tax, and I am sure there are a few more.

I think it is prima facie that the government was not accountable to Canadians and to Parliament when it said it would not be raising taxes to balance the budget. It absolutely is; $13 billion of additional EI premiums is balancing the books. It is going right down there. It is going to take care of moneys that otherwise the government would have to transfer into the new corporation to deal with the rising EI benefits because unemployment in the next year is going up from 8.2% to 8.5%. Those EI premiums are going to cost another 200,000 jobs in Canada.

We are going to have this problem where 500,000 people currently on EI are going to have their benefits lapsing. They are going to run out of benefits.

What will happen next is that we are going to have rising health care costs because of the stress on people not knowing how they are going to pay the bills.

We are also going to have a demand on social programs because people will need to turn somewhere. We will also have a rise in property crime and violent crime in Canada.

That is exactly what happened a little more than 10 years ago when we had the last recession. The crime rate in Canada tracked perfectly with the unemployment rate.

We have an aging society. We have consequences of that. We have mental health problems. The list goes on. These are significant priorities, and yet the House is now wondering whether or not we should deal with $10 million on ten-percenters and a few things to do with advertising, more discretionary things.

Why do we not take that first step of saying we have priorities that are important in this country? We have priorities in which we need to sacrifice things that we do.

I heard the Minister of State for Democratic Reform say ten percenters are democracy. I disagree because ten percenters, these flyers that get sent out by members of Parliament from all parties, are Parliament's money, money from the taxpayers. They produce these documents but claim that when they cross the line and are no longer just information on the important work of Parliament, they become political flyers. They become pieces of political literature. They ask, “Which leader do you support?” They ask, “Will you give us your email? Will you contribute money?” Political parties have ways to raise money to pay for these things. Why have we allowed a good tool to become jaundiced and become a political tool? Why have we done that? This is straightforward. There is not a member in this place who does not understand that, and there is no point in getting up and arguing about it in any other way.

We have made a mistake. We have not controlled this. The motion before us says let us fix it. Let us try to do the right thing. Let us be accountable. Let us be honest. Does anybody in this place really have a problem with that?

I do not have to get up here and berate the government for things it has done or a former government did. That is not the point. The point here now is that we, the members of this place, collectively have an opportunity to show Canadians that we are accountable and that when we have the opportunity, we will make good laws and wise decisions and be prudent with taxpayers' money. That is what is being asked right now. The motion will go to the Board of Internal Economy with the recommendation that we should do this.

I want to suggest that there are a couple of other areas that I really think the House will be dealing with: one would be the issue of prorogation. I do not think I have to explain to members how much prorogation costs Parliament in terms of its operations. It happened twice. We do know it happened when the government decided that, rather than be accountable to Parliament at a time when there were urgent issues, it would prorogue to try to cool it off, whether it be the fall of the government on a confidence vote or whether it be releasing the Afghan detainee documents.

While I am mentioning that, I notice the terms of reference of Mr. Iacobucci. I have some concern about spending the money on former Justice Iacobucci. He is a private citizen. He works for Torys LLP. He makes a lot of money. He used to make $400,000 a year as a supreme court justice. Now he is making easily more than twice that by doing his work for Torys.

The terms of reference are here, and this is in terms of accountability. I would say that by the terms of reference of this, his fees will be $500 to $650 an hour. If we work out the math, it is about $1 million a year. There is no term on this, but I can say that with the terms of reference that have been laid out here, it will unquestionably be a situation where Parliament will be sitting waiting for a response for about a year. It is going to the government. It is not going to Parliament. I do not know what that Afghan committee will do.

On top of that are all the consultants and experts he needs, all of the travel expenses while he is in travel mode and all of the other attendant things, plus other areas. We do know from inquiries in the past that these things become very expensive. I am estimating that the Iacobucci inquiry will hire an outside lawyer to do the work that the Department of Justice, which has some of the best lawyers in the country, can already do.

Why is it that we will hang up Parliament from doing a job on an important issue about whether or not Canada, directly, indirectly or inadvertently, may have violated the Geneva Convention? It is not unimportant. It is very important. Equally important to me is that the authority of Parliament to have that information to make those determinations is being challenged, not only by the government, but also by the Department of Justice.

These are issues that are important to our country. Our character is in question on these matters. We need to defend ourselves, and the only way is to get the answers clearly. If there are contradictions in the information and if there is a problem, we need to address it quickly, not wait for a year until Justice Iacobucci finishes.

Respectfully, I do not think, as a private citizen, Justice Iacobucci even has the authority, unless he gets sworn in somehow, not to disclose it, but everybody else that he has contact with, whether it is at his legal firm or all of the experts he gets, all of a sudden this information is going out into a lot of people's hands, but not to parliamentarians, and there is something fundamentally wrong about that.

I want to conclude with one other area that is very important to me and it has to do directly with spending of money. It has to do with access to information. I chair the access to information, privacy and ethics committee and we constantly get bombarded with complaints about the government's failure to deliver responses to people within the 30 days as required. In fact, many of them are coming from people who have been waiting two and three years.

The access to information commissioner does report cards on selected areas and departments. Last year there were eight reports, six of them had failing grades and one was red-flagged. The worst offenders were the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office. The Privy Council Office budget has gone up substantially because employees have been instructed to vet virtually every access to information request to ensure there is no political damage. No wonder the costs of the PCO have gone up so greatly. It is because we have political control in the PCO which is there to advise the Prime Minister's Office in terms of governance, not to be a political mask.

The motion before us brings some interesting issues for us, a small number, but they represent the bigger picture and that is each and every time that we do something, no matter which party, whether it is government or opposition, we must have due diligence, be accountable and tell the truth.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to sit here and listen to the hon. member talk about accountability when he was a member of a government that for 13 long years wasted people's money. I do not remember his indignation when the Liberal Party was stealing millions of dollars in the sponsorship scandal. I do not remember the indignation when $1 billion was being wasted on HRSDC boondoggles.

We must not forget that when the 40th Parliament sat for only a month and a discussion was brought forward that we would end political subsidies, what did the member do? All of a sudden he is all worried about the money that we spend on taxpayers and communicating to people, but when his entitlements and his party's entitlement with respect to taxpayer funding was threatened, what did he do? He joined in a coalition with his friends in the Bloc and the NDP as a way to avoid that type of accountability.

The reality on that side of the House is that those members have absolutely no policies. The reason they are so afraid to communicate to people is that they have absolutely nothing to talk about. They have no policies on the budget, on the environment, on natural resources and on red tape production.

Where was the hon. member's righteous indignation for 13 years? Is it not true that the only reason he is afraid--

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Mississauga South.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member's facts are wrong. He refers to the billion dollar boondoggle which the Auditor General checked out and it was $87,000. The member has misled the House and I am sorry about that. Some of the other things he said probably tells the House and Canadians more about him than it does about me.

To change the channel, the fact is that we have opportunities. I would raise two other points. The public service is being attacked and the easy way to get to balanced budgets is by attacking the public service. In fact, the public service does a very good job. The Conservatives need to realize that the public service is there to serve Canadians and our country abroad too.

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know the hon. suggested that I misled the House and he did not suggest anything, but if he would rather talk about the $250 million that he stole and his party still has not returned--

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion--Government SpendingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

It sounds like a furtherance of debate. If there is time I can recognize him for another question but it is not a point of order.

The hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona.