Debates of May 4th, 2010

Opposition Motion--Lobbying Act

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the member makes a basic assumption that everyone wants to scrap it, but it is not true. I can tell the member right now that there are both opinions in my riding. The member made an assumption about my riding. When was the last time the member was in my riding? He shrugs, which means he has not been there. I will not and never will be dictated to by someone who has never been there and does not care about my riding. Never. Conservatives can run as many ads as they wish and do whatever in mail-outs, but they are not there.

Now let us get back to the situation about MPs. When lobbyists come to see me, as I mentioned in my speech, they talk about the issues with heritage or fisheries, and it is always registered and accountable. I have no problem with that. It is pure, open, accountable and not a problem. They can do that any time, if that is the way they feel about doing it. Most of them do that right now, especially when it comes to heritage. The member can take a look at my calendar. He can take a look at all the meetings I have had regarding some of the issues in heritage and certainly in fisheries and oceans, about any matter he wishes. I have no problem with that.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the member did not really answer the question from the Conservative side, but the government should simply wake up and take its lumps, and if it feels somehow it should include all MPs in the rules, then let us do it. The Conservatives are the government. They should quit trying to amend the Liberal motion on the floor. If it is a good idea, then they should put it in and let us proceed.

The fact of the matter is that we know that Rahim Jaffer did not lobby the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor. He did not lobby anyone on this side of the House. He knew where the money is. The money is on that side of the House. The contracts are on that side of the House. They are not over here, and that is the point. The only people we get on our side are the ones who do not get the contracts, the people who were ill-treated and were beaten out on the contracts by some perception of insider influence. They are the ones who come to the opposition with their stories of woe, and that is how opposition and governments function in this country.

The government is trying to somehow muddy the waters and is saying it has to look at lobbying on the other side of the House, but the fact of the matter is that all MPs have to lobby for their constituents for roads and bridges in their areas. That is common practice. But we are talking about contracts. We are talking about insider information. Mr. Jaffer was trying to use his friendships in the Conservative Party to get contracts for himself and his buddies.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, that is a very valid point. If one wants to do it, one should do it. It sounds pretty simple. Over the past while, I have received many visits from a loose coalition of certain identifiable groups. The transparency by which I run my office is fine, so extend it. However, why does it take a Liberal motion to do this, to show some vision, if the government indeed thinks it is vision? Why would that be?

The hon. member made a valid point. People in my riding come to me about particular projects they would like support for. That is how the system works. However, they know I am not the department. The department lies over here. If one is a gatekeeper to that particular department, which I am not, then one really has to raise the bar on what the gatekeeper's responsibilities are. That is essential.

I said it in my speech and I will say it again. In this particular case, the parliamentary secretaries are an essential part of that communication process. Why would we not be involved in allowing them to have the same responsibilities as other gatekeepers?

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Speaker, in their 2006 platform, the Conservatives said they would require ministers and senior government officials to record their contacts with lobbyists. We know that the government has been challenged with both accountability and transparency. We could talk about access to information, the Parliamentary Budget Officer and government appointments, any of those things.

When one of our colleagues was up this morning, the President of the Treasury Board used a pretty frail defence. He said it would be administratively awkward. I guess that is really what he was saying this morning. Would my hon. colleague like to comment on that? They have made this promise that they would ensure and require ministers and senior government officials to record their contacts with lobbyists, and now we hear from the minister responsible for the Treasury Board saying that it might be administratively awkward.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that I did not hear that quotation, but that is a good one. If one finds things to be administratively award, one is in the wrong business. One cannot be top of the line in a particular administrative or executive function if one finds things administratively awkward.

If it is awkward, then how? Essentially, this goes back to that question. How is this so awkward? The government put out the very spirit of this particular bill that it introduced on accountability, providing conflict of interest rules, restrictions on election financing and measures respecting administrative transparency. Certainly, it has to follow the spirit of the law that it put out there. If the member is a huge proponent of accountability and transparency and his response is that it is administratively awkward, he should tell us how. How awkward would that really be in this particular case?

The other issue, and I quoted from the Prime Minister earlier, is the spirit in which the accountability is brought in. All we are saying is that the spirit of this particular law would include all people of certain knowledge. Therefore, why not the parliamentary secretaries?

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to follow up on a question I asked of the member for Burnaby—Douglas regarding the changes that are being contemplated to the Lobbying Act. Currently, there is no requirement for the lobbyist to disclose the amount of money spent on specific campaigns. There is no requirement for financial disclosure and no spending limit for lobbying campaigns.

Does the member agree that we should perhaps change the Lobbying Act to require the lobbyists to explain? For example, in their efforts to derail the air passenger bill of rights, the airline lobby has spent lots of money on receptions and letters. There are 10 to 15 lobbyists working full time chasing members in the House. Does he think it is about time these lobbyists were required to report how much they are spending on campaigns like this?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I, too, am a big fan of transparency. The spending issue is one thing but then we get into the issue of what is lobbying and what is not. When it comes to these receptions, we all know what it is, as the hon. member knows. I have been to many receptions myself. We just do not talk about day to day issues. We talk about the issue at hand.

When it comes to the airlines issue, regarding the member's passengers' bill of rights, it is a big issue. Fisheries gets a lot and again with heritage.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to speak. I will be sharing my time with the distinguished member for North Vancouver.

I rise today to reiterate our government's commitment to ensuring elected representatives put the interests of Canadians ahead of special interests. Like all Canadians, the government makes decisions every day. It makes decisions about the kinds of programs and services it offers and about policies affecting everything from entire industries to small businesses and individuals. Like individual Canadians, the government gathers available information and weighs options before making a final decision.

Lobbyists, whether they are paid or voluntary, provide information that contributes to the decision-making process. They bring facts and an in-depth understanding of issues to the table. They contribute to the knowledge required to make the best decisions for all Canadians. In a modern democracy like Canada, lobbying provides an opportunity for different views to be considered.

At the same time, we need to ensure that lobbying is carried out in an open and transparent manner. That is why our government made it a priority when we were elected to introduce the federal Accountability Act and to ensure it included measures to toughen up the lax Liberal rules around lobbying.

Since bringing in this sweeping legislation in 2006, there are now clear rules for lobbyists to report their interactions with the government.

One of the key aspects of the Lobbying Act is that lobbyists must file monthly reports on lobbying activities they initiate with ministers and senior officials. These rules have made lobbying more transparent and open than it has ever been in Canadian history.

Today, any Canadian can find out who is lobbying ministers and senior government officials and in what context. In fact, this information is available on the Internet.

In addition to delivering on our promise to clarify the responsibilities of lobbyists, we have drawn a line between proper and improper lobbying. One of the most important changes we made was to ban key people in powerful positions in the government from lobbying for a period of five years after they leave those positions. This measure has gone a long way in maintaining the trust of Canadians in their government.

The people who fall under this rule could unduly influence the government's choice of policies, programs and services that affect Canadians directly. That is why the five year ban applies to key decision makers, including ministers, ministers of state and their exempt staff. It also applies to senior public servants, such as deputy ministers, chief executives of departments and agencies, officials in departments and agencies at the rank of associate deputy minister, assistant deputy minister, as well as those occupying positions of a comparable rank.

The five year lobbying ban also applies to other top government jobs, such as the Chief of Defence Staff and the Comptroller General of Canada. Finally, it applies to people identified by the Prime Minister as having provided support and advice during the transition period from an election to a swearing in as prime minister. All these key decision-makers are referred to as designated public office holders in the new act.

The penalties under the Accountability Act are tough. If any designated public office holder breaks the five year ban, they can be subject to stiff fines of up to $50,000 or even jail time. These rules have given Canada one of the most robust lobbying regimes in the world. They have also given Canadians the reassurance that senior government decision-makers do not use their personal connections to get special favours from the government once they leave office.

In addition to improving rules and the five year ban, the Lobbying Act includes a number of other measures to assure Canadians that lobbying is done in an ethical and transparent way. For example, the act created a Commissioner of Lobbying, who is an independent agent of Parliament. The commissioner is responsible for maintaining the registry of lobbyists, which includes information about all registered lobbyists and their activities. The commissioner is also responsible for developing a lobbyist code of conduct and has the power to carry out investigations to ensure compliance with the act and the code

As well, the commissioner must now table a report each year in Parliament on the administration of the act and the code. This is such a significant improvement because, as members will recall, there were no tools to enforce a breach of lobbying rules before. The Lobbying Commissioner now has a budget, thanks to the government, of around $4.6 million to aggressively pursue anyone who breaches these rules and regulations.

That is a significant improvement over the loose rules under the previous government when this position was considered only as a registrar. Since day one, this government has put accountability and ethics at the centre of our agenda.

Canadians need to know that the Government of Canada holds the highest ethical standards and principles and provides programs that deliver value for money. Canadians told us clearly that they wanted a government that was more open and transparent, so we introduced the Federal Accountability Act to tighten up rules around lobbying. It is also why we are now looking at bringing in members of Parliament and senators under the Lobbying Act, including the offices of opposition leaders. If the members opposite are serious about providing real accountability to the Canadian people, they will have no problem supporting this measure.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member for Barrie explaining what the legislation now does, which is fine and we all appreciate that. However, he also said that because the previous government had a loose piece of legislation, his government brought in measures to tighten up that legislation.

There seems to have been a loophole that has been identified and this motion that was brought forward by the Liberal Party says that we need to tighten it.

If the member, the Prime Minister and the so-called Conservative Party, although sometimes I call it the Reform Party, believe in what they say, then they should be supporting this proposal from the Liberals which identifies a loophole as a result of the Rahim Jaffergate and we need to correct it. Will they support it, yes or no? I would ask that they tell Canadians.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is important that we go one step further by extending it to all MPs. We realize that much important work is done in committees of Parliament and that there will be lobbyists approaching MPs on all sides of the table, and that is why it is important that we extend this as far as possible. I assume that the Liberal Party would not have a problem with that. It will be interesting to hear whether the Liberals oppose our position that this should be extended to all MPs and the leaders of the opposition.

However, I do find it bemusing to hear the Liberals talking about changes to the Lobbying Act when it was the sponsorship scandal that led us to making these changes. One would assume that as elected officials we would not want to breach the public trust. However, we must remember that the reason we have a Federal Accountability Act was because of the theft of $40 million. Canadians kicked that government out of office because they were so disappointed that their trust had been broken.

It is interesting to see this being raised by the party that clearly did not understand what Canadian expectations were on lobbying.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if all these new rules that the member's government has set up are supposed to be solving the problem, what has gone wrong? How is it working so far?

The fact is that Mr. Jaffer had been dealing with cabinet ministers and requesting contracts but nobody over there in the government, those seven ministers and the parliamentary secretaries, thought to ask the man if he was a registered lobbyist. Did the alarm bells never go off? He is a man who members have known for years and have worked with. They knew he was unemployed and that he was lobbying and yet they let him have free rein through their government.

In terms of the government trying to amend the Liberal motion on the floor, it is absolutely ridiculous. If you in the government are so convinced that we should expand it to all MPs, then simply make the announcement.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I would just remind the hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona to address his comments to the Chair and not directly to other members.

I will go now to the hon. member for Barrie.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member asked what the difference is. There is a very clear difference. In the case of Rahim Jaffer, there was not a single cent of government money that was given out in an inaccurate manner. Not one dollar was lobbied successfully. If we compare that to the previous government, when there were not these rules, $40 million were stolen. So, there is a tremendous difference.

Right now we have a system in which lobbyists cannot do things unethically. We have a strong system and it is working.

It is funny when the opposition members are desperate for questions to ask that they have to complain about something where not a single cent was taken.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, why would the Liberals not support having all members record meetings with lobbyists? Why would they want to keep it quiet? Particularly in a minority government, why would they be opposed to being able to report all meetings with lobbyists?

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it makes me think that the reason the Liberals are trying to avoid saying where they stand on this is that perhaps they still maintain that cozy relationship with lobbyists that they had when they were in government. I cannot understand any other reason why they would be skirting whether they want to extend this to MPs.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Speaker, as a proud Canadian and a member of Parliament, I am pleased to defend the government's record on improving lobbying rules.

Over the course of 140 years, Canada has achieved remarkable success as a free, open and prosperous democracy. We are seen as one of the best countries in the world in which to live, a place with world-class cities and a place where people line up to come to. More recently, Canada is becoming known internationally as the jurisdiction that is leading the way on accountability.

Legitimate lobbying is one of the ways that the government remains responsive to the needs of Canadians and that is one of the reasons that this government acted to improve the rules around lobbying in Canada. Most important is the fact that Canadians deserve to know that their government is conducting its affairs openly and transparently.

The truth is that lobbying is not always about the next fat government contract or big tax break. Many interest groups, such as non-governmental organizations and advocacy groups, have government relations staff or consultants who speak with the government on their behalf. These efforts help government develop policy that better reflects the values and interests of Canadians.

However, these same organizations are not just lobbying the government. Parliamentarians play a key role in the development of public policy. These same members, senators and their staff are constantly approached by lobbyists looking to ensure their client's views are taken into account.

We think this is legitimate but it is also an area where we have not yet tread in terms of rules. So the negative picture that some people have of lobbying probably is not what leaps to mind when one thinks about people promoting support programs for families or better health, food and product standards, but this is an important aspect of lobbying that is often forgotten.

In short, lobbying, when it is done ethically and transparently, is a legitimate and fundamental part of our democratic system. Individuals, organizations and businesses can and should be able to communicate their opinions and ideas to government decision-makers and parliamentarians.

Our challenge as legislators is to have clear rules to ensure that lobbying is done and is open for all to see. Ultimately, that is what this government believes in and what this government is achieving. That is why the Lobbying Act is so important and why the government took the time to consult with Canadians on its implementation. We also think that principle should apply equally to decision-makers on the government side and the parliamentary side.

Thanks to the actions of this government immediately after we were elected in 2006, Canadians now have the assurance that their government is handling its affairs transparently. Lobbyists now have clear reporting responsibilities for interacting with and advocating to government. In fact, one of the key aspects of the Lobbying Act is the requirement for lobbyists to file monthly reports on lobbying activities that they initiate with ministers and senior government officials. As a result, Canadians can find out who is lobbying ministers and senior officials and in what context.

In the quest for complete transparency in lobbying activities, this information continues to be published on the Internet. Canadians now have access through the Internet to information about lobbying activities. Canadians now know which lobbyists are communicating with ministers and senior government officials and what is being discussed.

The government has delivered on its promise to clarify the responsibilities of lobbyists and draw the line between appropriate and inappropriate lobbying. In fact, in introducing the Lobbying Act in 2006, we demonstrated to Canadians that they can have confidence in the management of the public sector, both in politicians and in senior officials.

It all goes back to accountability. This is the government that promised greater transparency and openness in government and we had to take action. We were elected in the wake of serious Liberal scandals. Canadians demanded to know that their government was being well managed, that it upholds the highest standards, values and principles, and that it provides programs that deliver value for money.

When this government came to power, our top priority was to implement this pledge to Canadians. We delivered. The Federal Accountability Act strengthened accountability in government, restored Canadians' trust in our public and democratic institutions and laid the foundation for the government we needed and will continue to want in the future.

As hon. members know, this act was one of the most comprehensive and complex pieces of legislation ever passed in this country. It made substantive changes to existing federal statutes and created two new ones. This legislation touched virtually every part of government and beyond.

The measure designed to strengthen ethics in government comes through a stronger and more transparent Lobbying Act. Because of these measures, Canadians can be assured that lobbying and government advocacy is done openly. This was just one of the steps we took through the Federal Accountability Act to meet the evolving needs of Canadians for efficient, effective and honest government.

I am proud of the actions this government has taken to ensure the relevancy and effectiveness of our system of government. The reforms contained in the Federal Accountability Act descended from the political reforms that brought responsible government to our country. Indeed, they are democracy at work.

Canada deserves a government that is accessible, open, transparent and accountable. That is what the Lobbying Act helps provide. This act is working well in helping to create the necessary balance between government that is relevant, as well as open and transparent, to Canadians.

As stated earlier by the President of the Treasury Board, we think an important component is missing. Parliamentarians are a crucial link in the decision-making process. Members, senators and their staff are entrusted by Canadians to make decisions in their best interests. If opposition members want to really demonstrate a commitment to openness and transparency, they should have no problem supporting that.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Speaker, first, I heard the hon. member talk about being open and transparent. The government is challenged in all kinds of ways about being open and transparent. There are all kinds of access to information items about which we could talk. We could talk about the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

The member is a parliamentary secretary and therefore knows that under the current Lobbying Act, whether it was deliberate not, we do not know, parliamentary secretaries are not designated public office holders. Why should he not be, if he is responsible for running the administrative dealings for his minister? We know of at least one parliamentary secretary who was delegated to be in charge of a $1 billion fund. Why would he not, if his goal is be open and transparent, allow parliamentary secretaries to be designated public office holders?

The second point I want to raise is he said his top priority was to implement the Conservatives' pledge to Canadians. In the 2006 platform, his government talked about requiring ministers and senior government officials to record their contacts with lobbyists. Why is the member not supportive of this amendment?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in fact, we want to take it one step further. We believe all members of Parliament and senators should fall under this act. In fact, when it comes to lobbying, the opposition gets lobbied just as much as the government does. The rooms behind us are called lobbies, because that is where a lot of lobbying takes place.

Every member of this place and the other place gets lobbied on a very regular basis. We do not know how many trade unions or other special interests groups have been lobbying the opposition.

We think we should take it one step further so all members of this place are subject to the act.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Rahim Jaffer was an unregistered lobbyist. Up to seven ministers and parliamentary secretaries were facilitating his efforts to get government contracts for himself and his friends. Nobody would even know about this had it not been for the drunk driving and cocaine charges.

The question we have to ask ourselves is this. How many other unregistered lobbyists like Rahim Jaffer could there be out there?

The member for Burnaby—Douglas talked about changing the act to require lobbyists to disclose how much money they spent on specific campaigns, since there are no spending limits for campaigns required at this point. For example, I am talking about the air lobby to try to defeat the air passengers' bill of rights, putting up money for receptions and hiring high-paid lobbyists to spend time chasing MPs on the Hill.

Would the member be in favour of supporting those types of changes to the Lobbying Act?

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in fact, the very first act of Parliament that we brought in was the Federal Accountability Act. This act has been regarded in our country and other countries as one of the foremost pieces of legislation demanding accountability from government.

The fact is, as members of Parliament, we are all lobbied from time to time. My colleague just reminded me that the hon. member across the way has lobbied this government on a very regular basis.

Lobbying takes place on a regular basis. Many special interest groups take part in lobbying, and there is a very good reason for it. Lobbying is a very important part of what this government and Parliament is subject to. It is important to hear other people's ideas and opinions so we know what they are.

Nevertheless, we need to toughen up the act. We believe in it. We brought in at the very beginning. We are committed to the Federal Accountability Act.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is an interesting debate. I have listened to the new Liberal members and I am reminded of the debate around the Federal Accountability Act. The Liberals opposed that, not because they thought there was a loophole with respect to parliamentary secretaries, but because they thought the old revolving door of lobbying and cronyism that existed before was fine. They thought there was no problem with the system.

Why does the parliamentary secretary think the Liberals have not moved to amend their motion to cover all MPs and senators and not just parliamentary secretaries? Are they afraid? It is their motion.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to prejudge why the opposition is not willing to amend its motion. One would think it would. We are talking about strengthening it. If the opposition is really in favour and committed to strengthening it, it should—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order, please. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Ajax—Pickering.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will come back to the motion before the House. The motion moved by the member for St. John's South—Mount Pearl tries to address a loophole that exists, which is parliamentary secretaries are not designated office holders and therefore not subject to the same rules with respect to the Lobbying Act as ministers.

In the previous government, parliamentary secretaries were sworn in as privy councillors so they would have met that definition, but they no longer are. This became a particular concern when we found out that the minister responsible for infrastructure had designated his parliamentary secretary to oversee a $1 billion fund, to hold meetings on it and to do this work for the minister, all without having the same rules and regulations as the minister. It is a major loophole that allows a minister to designate a parliamentary secretary to do work under a shadow and under shade that a minister could never be afforded. This situation came to light with the happenings of the Jaffer affair.

It is important to note that the government's principal defence in this is ministers are not required or obliged to do disclosures. One thing it fails to mention, and it is addressed in the amendment that was introduced earlier today by the member for Beauséjour, is the fact that in 2006, during the election campaign, the Conservative Party said that this was essential, that there should be proactive disclosure of any meetings that took place with the ministers to the public.

It was part of the Conservatives' campaign platform, but was conveniently dropped when they introduced their act. They now actually use the defence that it is not an obligation for them to report these meetings proactively and that they have done the right thing, even though, by their own words, it is what they campaigned on in 2006. They should have done it and they were supposed to do it.

It is interesting to note that there are many instances, including for the parliamentary secretary responsible for infrastructure, where there has been proactive disclosure of other meetings with lobbyists that have taken place. Therefore, it has become a selective practice. If they feel it is worth disclosing and it is not anything embarrassing, they disclose it. If it is something that might be embarrassing or a meeting they do not want people to know about, it appears they do not disclose it.

When the former caucus chair of the Conservative Party, who is the husband of a cabinet minister, walks into an office, sits down at a desk and starts lobbying for government cash, would the Conservatives not think a proactive disclosure would be in order? The Conservatives said in 2006 that it was imperative that ministers and parliamentary secretaries disclosed these meetings. If they are proactively disclosing these other meetings, then why on earth would individuals in question be sitting down, having meetings and not disclosing them? By their own definition, that should take place.

Therefore, the argument now, reaching the point of being farcical from the government's side, is it will not support this because it also wants opposition members to disclose with whom they meet. It was not that long ago when the governing party was in opposition, and it may not have to wait long before it is in that situation again. However, the government will recall that opposition parties do not have the power to fund programs or to deliver government services.

I have people who come and talk to me on all kinds of things. The best I can offer is that I will try to raise it with the government and ask that it take action, or raise it in committee. I certainly have no problem disclosing with whomever I meet, but the idea that the government would hold out on meeting its own election promise in 2006 because it wants opposition parties, which do not even have the power to give any money, to disclose who they meet with is just preposterous and shameful, quite frankly. It is an affront to what it ran on.

I sometimes wonder if the Conservative Party thinks the Federal Accountability Act was just the name of something it passed, that it was ticked off the list and it did not have to worry about it any more. It does not seem that it follows, either in word or spirit, much to do with that act.

If we take a look at the circumstances specific to this case, there is a real pattern of secrecy, a culture of deceit, that is permeating not only this issue, but across Parliament, that should give each of us great cause for concern.

If we draw a line back to the beginning of this whole sordid affair with the then minister of state for status of women and her outburst at the airport in Charlottetown, she berated the people who were working in that airport, allegedly threw her shoes, banging on doors, screaming at people, and doing something that, to be quite frank, if any other Canadian citizen did, they would be hauled away in handcuffs.

[An hon. member]

They would be prevented from flying.