Debates of Nov. 22nd, 2012

Bill C-27—Notice of time allocation motion

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I have just a reminder to hon. members that typically in this 30-minute question period most of the question time is given to opposition members.

The hon. member for Northumberland—Quinte West.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the previous questions the minister answered was about transparency, and it has to do with the very nature of the bill. The bill is about the transparency of the wages and benefits that councillors receive on first nations territories. Would the minister agree with me that in every other level of government—for example, members of Parliament in the House and members of the Senate—our wages and our benefits are all publicly known? We must submit these every year. Our expenses and our office budgets are there for everyone to see where every dollar and penny went. The same is true with provincial and municipal levels of government.

Why should this other level of first nations government not operate under the same accountability regime?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is increasingly the question that was asked by many first nations members. That is the question that was asked by the public at large. It is the question that all of us are asking. We are now in the 21st century, and we need to make some long-overdue changes. We want to take the department out of being the only one that receives the financial information. It is instructive to know that the self-governing first nations, of which there are about 20 across the country, are already disclosing financials and they are happy to do so.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is not just about transparency, but also about governance. From that point of view, I find it hard to believe that another level of government, here in Canada, would agree to such extensive disclosure of its activities.

I would like the minister to explain the justification for imposing this type of constraint on first nations when, insofar as the government is concerned, the door has not really been opened, not even to shine a ray of light on certain practices.

Within his own department, certain recurring problems are not being resolved. The government is asking the first nations to do much more than what his department is doing.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the question is illustrative of the problem, and that is that we would be removing a straitjacket and we would be reducing the role of the department. I think the member would agree with us on both of those objectives. The passage of the bill would encourage good governance. The passage of the bill would mean the watchdog is actually the membership and the public, not the department. That is most appropriate, and that is the way it should operate.

I will point out that municipalities are creatures of the provinces, and they have a not dissimilar relationship to that between the department and first nations.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I find this move for closure very rich coming on the heels of the decision by the government to refuse recommendations to ensure the estimates and spending process of the House, which we are constitutionally obligated to deliver, and throw that report back to the committee. The Conservative government is the very government that is also forcing its own appointed Parliamentary Budget Officer to go to court to find clarification of his mandate, so that he can deliver on his job to review spending and estimates, so that he can assist MPs to deliver on their function. That is incredibly rich.

There is an incredible level of discrimination here. The same kind of imposition on first nations is an insult to what is actually an order of government. I would like to know if the minister believes that, to be consistent, the government will start imposing exactly the same disclosure rules on the provinces to which it transfers dollars?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is illustrative. We have an estimates process at the standing committee level. I have never failed to respond to appear before the committee for the estimates. The opposition and government members have a full opportunity to explore the estimates, and I think that is most appropriate.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I just listened to the NDP member for Edmonton—Strathcona. This is not about discrimination. I am first nations. I expect a level of transparency and accountability to my band membership from my first nations leaders. Hearing the member across the floor say this insults me as a first nations. I am a Canadian. I want to hear what is being spent, as do my first nations band members.

I have an example here of trying to assist other band members from across Canada. In one place in northern Ontario, an ATIP request was made to the department asking for financial accountability from the leaders. Year after year, these audited reports express serious concerns about the reporting practices of this band. How long does a band have? The auditors state that there are serious deficiencies in the accounting records with respect to expenses, or that the consolidated financial statements do not present fairly the financial position of this band.

Could the minister tell us why it is important for the bill to be time allocated?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, as the fiscal year comes to an end at the end of March, we need legislation in place before then in order to have these rules apply to the subsequent fiscal year. We need some notification period for first nations to comply with the new legislation.

Compliance with this legislation is minimal from the standpoint that the disclosures are already disclosed to the department. Therefore, it is just a matter of making it public. There was some discussion that maybe there would be an extra cost attached to a website but we are quite prepared to utilize our website for that activity.

That is the reason we need to get this legislation to move forward.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am not surprised that the minister would invoke closure because, under his watch, he has been a complete failure in being able to respond to the most basic requests of accountability. For example, his department was given an F for access to information. That is not just that it has been ongoing. That was under his watch because Chuck Strahl, the man who told children in Attawapiskat that they did not deserve a school, had a C when he ran the department. Under the present minister's watch, basic accountability has fallen right through the floor.

I am hearing from the Conservatives that it is about transparency and that all salaries should be open. I agree. Will the minister table in the House the salaries of the political operatives in his office? We believe that we should know how he is spending that money. Will he do that or will he continue to run his secretive regime of incompetence?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have come to expect that from the member.

There is no requirement under Bill C-27 for anyone beyond elected officials to disclose salaries, per diems and honorariums. That is what we do federally, provincially and municipally. There is the odd jurisdiction that goes beyond that. We do not want to put this whole area into the realm of political partisanship, which is what the member is trying to do.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, two years ago, the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar introduced her private member's bill, Bill C-575, to increase financial transparency and accountability for first nations across Canada.

This legislation is long overdue and I am pleased that the government is now taking the appropriate action by moving time allocation on the bill to ensure that first nations have access to the basic financial information of their elected officials.

The opposition has been trying to argue that there has been no consultation on the bill. As stated earlier, it is exactly because of the complaints of first nations members that this legislation has been introduced.

Could the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development comment further on why this legislation is so important to first nations?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, talking about the fact that this concept had some roots in a private initiative in this House by the hon. member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar is instructive of something else, which is a major imperative for first nations to want to do this. Many first nations are now doing it voluntarily because they are interested in economic development and they know that private businesses want to know their financials. They want to know that those financials are sound, that they are acceptable and that they are getting into partnership with somebody who is practising prudent financial management.

That is certainly something that was testified to at committee and something I am well aware of from my visits across the country. There are some very good examples of first nations that are doing exactly all of this.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today we are discussing the 29th time allocation motion, more commonly known as a guillotine. That simply means that once again the House is being muzzled and, with this bill, the first nations are also being muzzled.

Given that this bill is asking first nations to take responsibility and be more transparent, I would like to know why the government itself does not start taking its responsibilities seriously and being much more transparent.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we have done exactly that. Our Federal Accountability Act, which was passed in this place in 2006, is the root of this kind of legislation. That is what created accountability AND transparency and allowed the public to know our spending as members of Parliament, what our offices spend and so on.

We also opened up the access to information provisions quite widely as government.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the other day I had the opportunity to ask the minister about expropriating territory on first nations reserves to put pipelines through. The minister's response should have been, “No, we will never do that”, but he did not give a proper answer.

I wonder if he would now give a more complete answer than he gave the other day.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I understand the latitude that is afforded to all members in their questioning, but we started out this debate on three specific motions from the critic for aboriginal affairs and the bill itself. We have seen best efforts here to attach things like accountability back to the bill and I have remained seated, but this question actually has nothing to do with what we are currently debating, not in any way, shape or form.

I would turn our minds to Standing Order 11(2) where the Speaker in this case, having called the attention of the House to the conduct of a member who persists in irrelevance or repetition, and, in this case, the point of order is on irrelevance. It has nothing to do with Bill C-27 in its substance.

That question was--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I appreciate the intervention by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. The question before the House pertains to the time allocation question regarding Bill C-27. The member has posed a question. We will leave it to the minister if he wishes to answer the question and we will proceed at that point. I thank the hon. member.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the question that the member posed does not have anything to do with Bill C-27, quite obviously. Once again, we are seeing some politics at work here. I know that the whole pipeline--

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I did not rise on a point of order assuming that we would have a ruling from you. In fact, as the minister raised earlier in his testimony here, he talked about outside business interests and the relationship with first nation councils. Therefore, my friend's comment and question were both relevant and important.

If the minister wants to get into that area of discussion, then, obviously, we are able to pose questions on that same area. My friend did not ask any irrelevant questions when the minister got into outside business interests. The actual question is of substance and important to accountability and transparency both from first nations and, more important, from the Conservative government. If the minister wishes to be accountable to this, then it is his right and, in fact, an obligation as a minister of the crown.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I appreciate the opposition House leader's intervention. I would remind hon. members that we have a tight 30-minute debate on this particular question that is before the House. It does not leave ample room for these kinds of questions and points of order, although members have the prerogative to raise those points.

I have heard nothing, in my opinion, that is not pertinent to the question that is before the House. As members have said, there is a wide berth for members to raise these points and questions to the minister and he is, of course, equally able to address those in the course of his responses.

The hon. minister.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, quite crisply, the bill would not change the equation in any way, shape or form in terms of expropriation of anything for any purpose. What it would do is increase the opportunities and the incentive for business and economic development on reserve. That is good and I am happy that it is the way it has been received by many, if not most, first nations.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to my friend's last point about encouraging and allowing for business opportunities because of the bill, as the government claims, I wonder if he could make a specific comment.

Would the bill enable a similar agreement to what the Gitxsan treaty negotiator established with the Enbridge northern gateway pipeline? Would the bill curtail such agreements being done without the knowledge and commitment of the first nations people represented by that leadership, which was t the case in the Gitxsan situation? Would the bill correct that situation which, as he would know, caused an enormous amount of strife within the Gitxsan Nation and the people of the northwest?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this legislation would have no impact either way. What happened with the Gitxsan was a very complex situation deriving from a complex governance issue. As I see it, this legislation would have no impact on that kind of circumstance.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?