Debates of Dec. 11th, 2012

Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question and comments.

If my colleague would agree to make changes to the bill in order to ensure that the amendments that we proposed and that were adopted during the previous Parliament are automatically incorporated into this bill, then our party might be willing to support these recommendations.

As things stand now, they are not in the bill, and that is why we cannot support it. We want to ensure, among other things, that a person filing a grievance or making representations has access to his or her file and the transcripts, which is currently not the case.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech, and I want to read directly from the Lamer report for my question to her.

The Lamer report says, to end unacceptable delays:

The Chief of Defence Staff must be given the power to delegate to someone under his [or her] command and control decision-making in respect of all grievances...

It also recommends:

A task force composed of senior members of the Canadian Forces should be created with the sole responsibility of resolving the backlog of grievances at the Chief of Defence Staff Level within a year of the tabling of this report....

This report was tabled in 2003 and we are now in 2012, and these recommendations are not in Bill C-15.

Earlier, I spoke about the fact that we cannot support bills that are incomplete, and if this bill is incomplete, why would the Conservatives not put in these sections of recommendations that were made by former Chief Justice Lamer?

My question to my colleague is: Does she agree that these are fundamental aspects of the report's recommendations that should be in this bill?

[Nycole Turmel, NDP, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yes, I agree that Mr. Lamer's strong, and long, investigation looked at the problems with military justice, and he was thoughtful in his recommendations.

It is important to listen and look at the money that was spent at the time, as well as the time of the people who were tasked with this, and make sure that the amendments proposed reflect what was presented at the time.

I believe that if the Conservative government wants to listen to our recommendations and amend the bill, then we could achieve something that is good for our military. It is important to recognize the value of these people who represent Canada.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a great pleasure for me to try to put in my two cents' worth today in this debate on Bill C-15.

I have studied labour relations. I have also worked as an employee representative in grievance procedures. In my field of studies, I also did human resources management. I have been on the employer side and the union side. So I have been on both sides.

I am going to try to show why it is extremely important that we have a fair and equitable system for our soldiers for handling grievances relating to all the various disputes that arise between them and their superior officers and their institution, the Canadian Forces.

We have a bill that amends eight acts: the Access to Information Act, the Criminal Code, the Financial Administration Act, the Privacy Act, and others.

This bill is in fact 60 pages long. That is almost modest, compared to what we have been used to getting from the government for some time now.

To begin, let us do a review of part of the history of this bill.

In 2003, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer, former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, submitted a report on the independent review of the National Defence Act. He is not just anybody. He had much to say about judgments concerning grievances that had gone to the labour court, the Court of Appeal, and ultimately the Supreme Court. The Lamer report contained 88 recommendations concerning the military justice system, the Military Police Complaints Commission, the grievance procedure, which I will address at greater length today, and the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal.

Bill C-15 is the legislative response to those recommendations. However, only 28 recommendations have been incorporated into this new version.

Bill C-15 has appeared in several forms over the course of its history.

First, we had Bills C-7 and C-45, which died on the order paper when Parliament was prorogued in 2007—I think we know it is the practice of the Conservatives to cut off debate—and the 2008 election was called.

However, in July 2008, Bill C-60 made a comeback, simplifying the structure of courts martial and establishing a method for choosing the type of court martial that would be most consistent with the civilian justice system. That was precisely the objective that should have guided the sponsors of this reform and Bill C-15. That should be our goal: harmonization with the civilian justice system.

In 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs considered Bill C-60 and made nine more recommendations to amend the National Defence Act.

In 2010, Bill C-41 was introduced to respond to the 2003 Lamer report and the 2009 Senate committee report. Provisions relating to the military justice system were included, such as provisions relating to sentencing reform, judges and military boards and committees, summary trials, the court martial panel and the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal and certain provisions relating to the Military Police Complaints Commission.

Essentially, Bill C-15 is similar to the version that came out of the Senate committee in the last Parliament. The amendments carried forward include the composition of the court martial panel and the appointment of military judges during good behaviour until the age of retirement.

Since I was elected, in May 2011, I have spent time on many occasions with soldiers of all ages, whether at Remembrance Day ceremonies with our courageous Canadian Legion members or at various meetings with soldiers and cadets in my region. I have met courageous, dynamic people who are very proud of their military profession.

However, when the time comes for them to return to peacetime life, these soldiers’ lives can be full of surprises and sometimes twists. All of them, the generations who lived through the major wars—the world wars, the Korean War or the Vietnam War—and other generations who have worked hard on numerous peacekeeping missions in the Middle East, in Africa, in Europe, or more recently in Iraq, Darfur and Afghanistan, deserve not only our admiration, but also our respect, for doing their duty.

That is why they deserve justice, a justice system in which they will be able to see themselves as individuals who are part of today’s modern society.

All these brave men and women have proudly carried the colours of our Canadian flag and staunchly defended the democratic principles we hold dear. Sometimes, however, and it must be said, the aftermath has left its marks, and sometimes they are heavy marks. When they come home, their life in our industrialized society begins, where the economy is what matters above all else. In this modern civilization, social status, acceptance by others, often comes from a person’s job and of course the pay associated with it, but also, everything depends on an academic background or wide-ranging experience here and there in the real world. Soldiers do in fact have an extraordinary background when it comes to understanding giving and duty. They are capable of great effort and courage.

And then, soldiers return to work in civilian life. This is why I focus on this when I talk about grievances in the military system and the consequences of those grievances. Whether or not it is appropriate, a candidate for a position that is available in a business is judged, most of the time, against objective criteria, I hope, but sometimes the candidate is assessed in a way, and let us not be afraid of the words, that may be more subjective. And so a little notation here or there about a minor problem during the person’s military service or in the performance of their duties during missions can sometimes become a major wrongdoing in the eyes of an employer who decides to make use of this workforce, which is so important to manufacturing and industry, but also to the service sector. That is why the NDP is truly disappointed that some of the amendments it proposed to Bill C-15 have not been incorporated.

I would like to mention the amendments concerning the authority of the Chief of Defence Staff in the grievance process. These amendments were a direct response to a recommendation by the Right Hon. Justice Antonio Lamer, the former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. There are also the changes to the composition of the grievance committee so that 60% of its members would be civilians to make it more objective and to ensure that the grievance process is not conducted strictly by the military. Finally, there is the provision to ensure that a person convicted of an offence during a summary trial is not unfairly subjected to a criminal record. All too often, this criminal record will scare employers who need this labour force. As I mentioned, this workforce is important not only to the future of that business, but also to Canada's future.

As I already said in my speeches here, do not ask what this country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Those words are from John F. Kennedy, but they still apply. It is often said that Canada is a land that needs workers. The doors are open. We welcome them. However, we must not create problems for these applicants, for this workforce that is essential to our country's future. Believe me, Mr. Speaker, this kind of situation can seriously undermine a soldier's return to civilian life and his career after the military.

We need this workforce. Yet in this world, they will be subjected to a grievance system essential to justice and to fairness in the handling of disputes. Why not have harmonized the military and civilian justice systems in this respect? It would have been easy to do. This grievance adjudication system is even recognized by the Supreme Court in several decisions.

Bill C-15 on the reform of the military justice system should be based on the fundamental principles of law and justice on which our country was built. It is essential to put things back in place within National Defence and to give that department the means to adapt to the modern workplace, to the 21st century.

Still, the NDP believes this legislation is a step in the right direction—really—to bring the military justice system more in line with the civilian justice system. Other steps will have to be taken, and we hope the government will listen to our amendments.

May justice be done.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have listened, but again and again I hear the same misrepresentation of the facts. Indeed, I think all members here would agree that 81 out of the 88 recommendations made by Chief Justice Lamer have been accepted by the government, and have been implemented or are on their way to being implemented.

The member and others from the NDP have stood up consistently and said, “They do not deserve criminal record” or “They should not have a criminal record” or “The criminal record follows them”. It is not about “them”. If they have committed a crime, they should be identified with a criminal record. Canadians should have the ability to have someone supervise them for a period of time. Criminals should pay a price as a consequence of their actions.

Is the member suggesting that these people, if they commit a crime, should not have a criminal record and that Canadians should not be protected through some form of supervision on an ongoing basis? That is what he seems to be saying.

The member continuously brings forward the disappointment that the NDP members have in relation to their amendments not being adopted by the government, so the NDP members are going to take their baseball and bat and go home. I know the member is disappointed, but he is not in government.

Is the member suggesting that people should not receive a criminal record if they do a crime? That is what he seems to be saying.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if we were in government, we would do things differently, certainly in a more human way.

I do not agree with the member's assertion. It is obvious that what we are trying to do is to change the system so that when military members come back to society they can adjust.

They can adjust to civilian life. We certainly do not question the military justice system in the case of serious offences. Today, we are not dealing with serious offences but with minor offences that could have a very unfortunate impact on the future civilian life of military personnel.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for Compton—Stanstead, a very compassionate man. Since his riding neighbours mine, I have worked with him on a number of occasions. I have a very simple question for him.

As he pointed out, having a criminal record can create a lot of problems for job seekers. We are talking about military justice. People who served in the Canadian army end up with a criminal record, even though their justice system is not as fair as that of other Canadians. Having access to a fair and equitable court of law is a constitutional right, and members of the Canadian Forces do not even have that fundamental right.

In light of his previous job experience, could my colleague comment on the repercussions this could have? Does he think that soldiers should have the right to a fair court of law, like other Canadians?

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague very much for his question.

It is obvious that for grievances and disputes, it is important to be represented fairly. Our charter states that we must be represented by counsel or a representative who can help us through the court system, whether it is a court that handles grievances or a labour tribunal.

However, the military system does not respect this element of justice, this fundamental right. That makes no sense. If we want to modernize the military justice system, one of the first things we should ensure is that soldiers are fairly represented in the case of a judgment or a grievance. That is essential.

As we have said, minor offences are sometimes put in their file and they will end up with a criminal record for perjury or for offending an immediate superior. I have seen cases in which a young man, on the ground, yelled at his boss. There was a grievance, but it did not become a criminal record.

There is a double standard and it makes no sense.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

At this stage, I am opposed to the bill but, as always, I will keep an open mind and watch how it progresses through the various stages. As we have waited a long time for these reforms, we need to ensure we get them right, which is what I will speak to today.

I thank the MP for St. John's East for all his work on the bill, as well as for preparing us for these debates. He really does Newfoundland and Labrador credit.

I will take a moment to speak to the value of our armed forces personnel and to recognize their service and sacrifice. We are talking about a fairly detailed bill that would amend a lot of little clauses in other bills, including the National Defence Act, but we also need to recognize the service that the armed forces give in general. Many of my family members have served in the armed forces. I admire their professionalism and discipline. We are also addressing a very small portion of those who have served so proudly in the armed forces with this bill.

Every time I get a chance to speak to defence or military aspects of government policy, my mind drifts back to my great uncle, F.R.W.R. Gow, who was a commander in the Royal Canadian Navy working for military intelligence. Sadly, he died in service in November 1942 on the same day as my birthday, which always brings him to mind on Remembrance Day and during occasions such as this. Because of that, and when I think of my other relatives who have served in the armed forces, as well as all of the great veterans in my constituency, Remembrance Day is the most important day of the year for me as it marks the reason that we celebrate all of the other holidays. We should keep that in mind as we move through these bills to ensure we do the best we can for those who serve us so well.

Before I speak to the details of the bill, I will talk about a few other laws and policies surrounding the military, many of which are far from perfect. For example, with respect to recognition of those who have served in the past, I have been working in my office with a constituent who served in the Korean War who has not yet received official recognition for his sacrifice despite numerous appeals. This gentleman is t past 90 now and it is time to ensure that we recognize all of those who have served Canada in the past. We have taken some steps in Burnaby to recognize Korean War veterans. We have a beautiful Korean War memorial in Central Park in Burnaby. However, individual recognition is also crucial and I will continue to work on behalf of my constituent for that recognition.

This whole idea of lump sum payments for injured veterans is really abhorrent to me and goes against how we should treat those who have given so much.

I will now move to Bill C-15. It was introduced in response to a 2003 report tabled by the right hon. Antonio Lamer, the former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, concerning his independent review of the National Defence Act. In my mind, this is a housekeeping bill but an important one as it would adjust current laws concerning military justice. As we can tell from the title of the bill, it is not just the National Defence Act that would be altered but it is also consequential acts. Therefore, the bill would make broad-sweeping changes to a number of different pieces of legislation.

The Lamer report contained 88 recommendations pertaining to military justice, the Military Police Complaints Commission, the grievance process and the provost marshal.

The bill has seen many iterations since the Lamer report was tabled. It is important to keep in mind that in response to the 2003 Lamer report, Bill C-41 was introduced in 2010 and has been the subject of much of the discussion today.

The bill outlined provisions to military justice, such as sentencing reform, military judges and committees, summary trials, court martial panels and a number of other institutions and procedures. More important, during the debate on Bill C-41, we submitted a number of amendments during that committee stage, which have been talked about, but many of the amendments that were agreed to at that committee are not in the current version of the bill, which is why we are objecting.

The amendments include the following: the authority of the Chief of Defence Staff in the grievance process, responding directly to Justice Lamer's recommendation; changes to the composition of the grievance committee to include 60% civilian membership; and a provision ensuring that a person who is convicted for an offence during a summary trial is not unfairly subjected to a criminal record. I will return to these points through my speech, but as it stands, we can talk a little about the good parts of the bill.

Bill C-15 would provide greater flexibility in the sentencing process. It would provide for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharge, intermittent sentences and restitution. It also would modify the composition of a court martial panel according to the rank of the accused person. It would modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and would allow an accused person to waive the limitation periods. It would clarify the responsibilities of the Canadian Forces provost marshal and it would make amendments to the delegation of the Chief of Defence Staff's powers as the final authority in the grieving process.

For those positive few points I have pointed out, I believe Bill C-15 is a step in the right direction. It would bring the military justice system more in line with the civilian justice system. However, it does fall short on key issues that we have pointed out over and over again and that we will take pains to do it again today and in the future. The issues it falls short on include reforming the summary trial system, reforming the grievance system and strengthening the Military Police Complaints Commission.

I will speak to two of these shortfalls in more detail, beginning with the military grievances. At present, the grievance committee does not provide a means of external review. Currently, it is staffed entirely of retired CF officers, some only relatively recently retired. If the CF grievance board is to be perceived as external and an independent oversight civilian body, as it was designed to be, then the appointment process needs to be amended to reflect that reality.

We believe that some members of the board should be drawn from civil society. In fact, our NDP amendment provides that at least 60% of the grievance committee members must never have been an officer or a non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces. This civilian oversight process is something common in other government institutions, including, for example, CSIS, which has a civilian body appointed to oversee its procedures. Therefore, this seems to be an entirely reasonable request that we have put forward in the past and will continue to press for. The amendment was passed in March 2011 in Bill C-41 but was not retained in Bill C-15. Therefore, it does seem that there are at least some on the other side of the House who agreed, at least at some point, that there should be some civilians present in this oversight process. We think it is important to see this amendment included in the bill.

I will now to strengthening the Military Police Complaints Commission. Although what is included in the bill is seen as a step forward, we believe that more needs to be done to empower the commission. The complaints commission must be empowered by a legislative position that allows it to rightfully investigate and report to Parliament. Transparency is key here.

We oppose the bill at second reading because we do not think it is complete. There are key amendments missing that had been agreed to in the past and have not been included in this form of the bill. We ask that they be included. We ask that we do as well by our military personnel as they do by us.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, a number of NDP speakers have risen and, in succession, have talked about how they support reform in principle but that they feel that there are amendments that should be made to the bill but have not been made yet. That is why we send bills to committee. That is why Parliament has a committee process. One would think that the NDP, which often makes process arguments here in the House of Commons, would support moving to the next step of the process, which is to advance the bill to committee.

I am pleased that the bill will be moving toward committee with the strong support of this government. Since we have brought it forward in the last number of Parliaments, it is time to get it done. We would like to see the NDP supporting it at least to go to committee. Its argument today does not seem rational.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I doubt there is a Canadian out there who would disagree with us that civilian oversight in these days is crucial for all kinds of government institutions and that is why we support it and why we will keep pushing for it.

What I do not understand is why members on the opposite side, who supported this amendment before, have now dropped it. That causes us a bit of concern.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the government makes reference to the NDP members not necessarily being rational on the bill. Some might say that they are just being stupid on the bill.

At the end of the day, there is a difference between the three parties. The Conservative Party is prepared to push the bill through, not recognizing the importance from the Liberal Party's perspective of improving the bill. The Liberal Party supports the bill in principle and would like to see it go to committee with the hope that those amendments will be approved. We have had assurance from the government that it will bring in some of those amendments. Then there is the NDP that wants to kill the bill outright. It does not want the bill to go to committee and that is the reason it will be voting against it.

Why does the member not recognize the importance of the issue to members of our forces and others and, at the very least, change his mind, vote in favour of it and allow it to go to committee? If he does not support it after committee, then he can vote against it.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is pretty rich coming from that end of the House.

The report was tabled in 2003. When the Liberals were government, they had ample time to put these things through. It is their foot-dragging that has led us to this debate here today.

We will strongly support the amendments that we put forward and were agreed to in the past, and hope that the government will do the right thing and make those amendments in due course.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment about my colleague's speech and about the questions he was asked in this House.

The hon. member for Winnipeg North told us that it is completely ridiculous not to support this bill at second reading, when the Liberals did exactly the same thing with Bill C-42, the Enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police Accountability Act. They said that the Conservatives would never agree to any amendments and it was foolish—that may not have been the exact term they used—to believe that they would. Yet, now, they are saying the complete opposite.

I am shocked to see that the Conservatives are not respecting the work that was done by parliamentarians during consideration of Bill C-41 in the last Parliament. Does the hon. member really believe that any work could be accomplished in committee?

If amendments are going to be accepted, why are the amendments that were agreed to in the previous Parliament not already included in this bill?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it really does seem that the current culture of this Parliament is that amendments that we suggest are rarely, if ever, accepted. It is important for us to stick to our guns and to force the government to do the right thing in this case, and that is what we will do.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill C-15, the Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act, which amends the National Defence Act and other Acts.

This bill responds to the 2003 report of the Honourable Antonio Lamer, former chief justice of the Supreme Court, and the May 2009 report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. It is important that we have a good look at our whole military justice structure because there are a number of problems that need to be resolved.

Military justice needs to fit into our overall justice system. We need to ensure that our military justice laws are consistent with other laws in our general justice system, particularly when it comes to the fundamental principles of law. It is important to understand that there are differences between military law and our general legal system, and for good reason. The military justice system recognizes the relationship between the justice system and discipline within the armed forces.

Michel Drapeau, a retired Canadian Forces colonel and military law expert, had the following to say before the Standing Committee on National Defence:

I strongly believe that the summary trial issue must be addressed by this committee. There is currently nothing more important for Parliament to focus on than fixing a system that affects the legal rights of a significant number of Canadian citizens every year. Why? Because unless and until you, the legislators, address this issue, it is almost impossible for the court to address any challenge, since no appeal of a summary trial verdict or sentence is permitted.

Mr. Drapeau is a lawyer in private practice and has considerable military experience. His advice is worth its weight in gold and must be followed, which does not appear to have been the case here.

The bill provides for greater flexibility in sentencing, establishes new sentencing options—such as absolute discharge, intermittent sentences and restitution—makes changes to the composition of a court martial panel according to the rank of the accused person, makes changes to the limitation period applicable to summary trials and allows an accused person to waive the limitation periods. The bill also clarifies the responsibilities of the Canadian Forces provost marshal and makes amendments to the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff’s powers as the final authority in the grievance process.

When Bill C-41 was before the House, we referred it to the Standing Committee on National Defence where our party tried to do two things. First, we tried to ensure that the procedures in the military justice system were effective and consistent with the need for the timely resolution of disciplinary matters in some cases. Second, we also tried to ensure, to the extent possible, respect for the protections under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In other words, we did not want an efficient military justice system to trump the fundamental principles of justice just because the people in question are in the military.

Although Bill C-15 is similar to Bill C-41, important amendments adopted at committee stage at the end of the last Parliament have not been included in Bill C-15.

To no one's great surprise, these rejected amendments include the NDP amendments concerning, first of all, the authority of the Chief of Defence Staff in the grievance process—clause 6 as amended in Bill C-41. By the way, this was a direct response to a recommendation in the Lamer Report. They also concern changes in the membership of the grievance board so that 60% of the members would be civilians—clause 11 as amended of Bill C-41—and of course the provision ensuring that a person convicted of an offence at a summary trial would not be unfairly given a criminal record—clause 75 as amended of Bill C-41. This is very important.

When Bill C-41 was debated in the spring of 2011, the long hours of debate between the parties appeared to be leading toward a positive breakthrough. It makes me wonder why the Conservatives did not keep the amendments the NDP proposed in Bill C-15.

By excluding these amendments from Bill C-15, the Conservatives are undermining the important work done by all the members of the Standing Committee on National Defence, including their own colleagues, as well as the recommendations made by the representatives of the Canadian Forces during the last Parliament.

Many significant reforms were proposed in this bill. The NDP has long supported a necessary update of the military justice system. Canadian Forces members are subject to extremely high standards of discipline and they deserve, of course, a justice system of equally high standards.

That is why the NDP and I will oppose Bill C-15 at second reading. There are a number of shortcomings in the bill and we hope they will be discussed in committee if Bill C-15 is passed at second reading. This is probably what will happen, given that the government has a majority.

In terms of changes to the summary trial process, we believe that the amendments to Bill C-15 do not adequately address the unfairness of summary trials. At present, a summary trial conviction at the Canadian Forces results in a criminal record. Summary trials are held without the accused being allowed to consult counsel. There is no appeal and no transcript of the trial. Furthermore, the judge is the accused person's commanding officer. This is too severe for certain members of the Canadian Forces who are convicted of minor offences.

These minor offences include insubordination, quarrels, misconduct, absence without leave, drunkenness and disobedience. I agree that this is probably very important for military discipline, but it does not warrant a criminal record. I think everybody is in agreement on this point.

However, Bill C-15 provides an exemption so that certain offences, if there is a minor sentence determined by the act or a fine of less than $500, will no longer lead to a criminal record. In our view, this is a positive element in the bill. However, we believe the bill does not go far enough, unfortunately.

At committee stage, last March, the NDP proposed amendments to Bill C-41. These amendments included extending the list of offences, from five to 27, that could be considered minor and that would not result in a criminal record if the offence in question received a minor sentence.

The amendment also extended the list of sentences that could be imposed by a tribunal without being included in a criminal record. Such sentences include a severe reprimand, a reprimand, a fine equivalent to one month's salary and other minor penalties. This was an important breakthrough in terms of summary trials. However, as this amendment was not retained in Bill C-15, we are not prepared to give our support to the bill. We want this amendment to be included again.

A criminal record is not a small thing, as they say. Having a criminal record can make life after a military career very difficult. It can make it very difficult to obtain a job, to rent an apartment or to travel. Many Canadians would be shocked to learn that the members of the military who so bravely served our country may have a criminal record because of flaws in the military justice system.

I would now like to talk about reforms to the grievance system. At present, the grievance board does not allow for any outside review. In theory, the Canadian Forces Grievance Board should be viewed as an external, independent civilian body. Right now, the board members are retired members of the Canadian Forces, some of whom are very recently retired members of the military. In terms of a guarantee of objectivity, to my mind, this is hardly ideal. In fact, the NDP amendment suggested that at least 60% of the members of the grievance board must not be former officers or former members of the Canadian Forces, in order to guarantee a little more objectivity in cases of this kind.

With regard to the authority of the Chief of Defence Staff in the grievance process, contrary to a recommendation in the Lamer Report, the NDP believes that the lack of authority of the Chief of Defence Staff to resolve financial issues arising from grievances is a major weakness in the military grievance system.

Since the Lamer Report came out, no concrete action has been taken to implement the recommendation, even though the recommendation was approved by the Minister of National Defence. In my view, we must all ask questions and we must study the bill in a little more detail, become aware of the opinions of those concerned and work with the official opposition.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Minister of International Cooperation]

Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member comment on the reference made by Mr. Justice LeSage on the issue of criminal records with respect to summary trials? He stated:

However, regarding the constitutionality of the summary trial process, I am satisfied, as was former Chief Justice Dickson, that “the summary trial process is likely to survive a court challenge as to its constitutional validity”.

Would the member like to comment about her source of information or the basis for her beliefs?

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I always find hon. members' questions somewhat funny.

We are not talking about the opinion of a judge or anyone else; we are talking about human rights. We are also talking about people who, because of a trial system, do not enjoy the same rights as ordinary citizens, even though they too are full-fledged citizens.

So, as I was saying, there is work to do. Experts should be consulted and, perhaps, the amendments that were proposed for Bill C-41, and that were very logical, should be accepted. The government actually supported them, and also the Minister of National Defence. Therefore, we should move forward on this issue and stop relying on an archaic system.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague on her speech on Bill C-15.

We often hear the Liberals say that, on this issue, we are delaying things a bit. We said—and my colleague stressed that point—that amendments had already been proposed and accepted by all committee members, including the minister. Later on, the government came back with a bill that excludes all these amendments and, somewhat blindly, Liberal members are supporting the government on this issue. As for us, we have taken a different position.

I wonder if my colleague could elaborate on her experience and on our confidence in this government when it comes to accepting our amendments.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his very relevant question.

In fact, since this government got a majority, it has been very difficult to work with it. This is unfortunate because that is what we would like to do in proposing amendments. We recognize that there are some positive things in the bill, but we also recognize that some changes are necessary. All we are really asking for is to be involved.

The Conservative government should also remember that while it may have a majority, not all Canadians voted for it.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my distinguished colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for her excellent speech. She gave an accurate picture of the situation as it relates to Bill C-15 and military justice.

It is really important to respect the people who have served and who continue to serve our country and all Canadians through their work. The hon. member spoke well of a real problem with Bill C-15, namely the grievance committee. I wonder if she could elaborate on this problem with Bill C-15.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me the opportunity to elaborate on this issue.

As I pointed out in my speech, this committee is made up of members of the military, people who are sometimes the immediate superiors of the accused. This takes away some objectivity and creates a problem. Every citizen has the right to a fair and objective trial, and that includes our military.

As the hon. member mentioned, it is important to remember that most of these people risked their lives for our country, for us, for Canadians and for our freedom. Therefore, it is important to recognize that these military people are full-fledged citizens and have the same rights as we do.

Business of the House

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Minister of State and Chief Government Whip]

Mr. Speaker, there have been consultations and I believe you would find agreement in the House for the following motion:

That, notwithstanding any standing order or usual practice of the House, the third reading stage of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Criminal Code, may be taken up in the same sitting during which the report stage of the said bill is disposed of.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Does the chief government whip have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.