Debates of Dec. 11th, 2012

Increasing Offenders' Accountability for Victims Act

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for this time, which I will be sharing with the hon. member for Manicouagan, when I will state my position on Bill C-37. I would like to tell the House that we support the increasing offenders’ accountability for victims act.

This bill responds to a need expressed by intervenors and lobby groups. Even though our support is not complete, we are satisfied that such a measure will make it possible to award additional sums to victims. Our party has always had a clear position on issues relating to the judicial system. We argue for an equitable, impartial and progressive form of justice.

We believe that victims deserve all the assistance they require, and we believe that our role as parliamentarians is to support them. Criminals must take responsibility for their actions, but we must also remember that it is also our duty to encourage their rehabilitation. Bill C-37 is consistent with this logic, because it recognizes the victims' needs. It forces criminals to confront the consequences of their acts, and allows for the conversion of financial penalties to hours of community service.

The increasing offenders’ accountability for victims act will double the amount of the victim surcharge and make it mandatory for all offenders convicted of a criminal offence. At the moment, if a person's goods are lost or destroyed, or if personal physical or psychological damage is inflicted or threatened, the judge may order an offender who is convicted or discharged to pay an amount directly to the victim for damages.

Currently, a 15% surcharge is added to that amount. The money is used to finance programs that assist victims of crime in the province where the crime was committed. Bill C-37 increases these amounts significantly to 30%, in order to help victims. Thus the surcharge may be $100 instead of $50, $200 instead of $100, and so on.

The bill also changes another aspect of the surcharge. At the moment, an offender may be exempt from paying the surcharge if paying it would cause undue hardship to the offender or the offender's dependents.

Bill C-37 eliminates this aspect of the current law. It permits the offender to discharge the fine in whole or in part by earning credits for work performed. The official opposition welcomes this measure, since it provides an opportunity for offenders to become involved in their communities and make restitution for their offences.

Still, the uniform application of the law is significantly limited by the absence of such programs in Ontario and Newfoundland and Labrador. Through this measure, the bill aims to make criminals more accountable for their actions and especially to help the victims of crime. We agree completely with the principle.

However, we believe that there are significant social problems associated with crime and they deserve our attention. For example, 82% of the women in prison have been victims of physical or sexual abuse. That is not an excuse for crime, but it does explain certain aspects. Similarly, poverty often has an influence on the nature and type of crimes committed, and this fact cannot be ignored.

Certainly, the bill does assist victims, and we agree completely with that. Still, it is equally important to attack crime at it roots and rehabilitate the criminals, and the government's current policies ignore these aspects, despite the advice it has received from many experts.

Rather than making massive cuts to federal social programs, the government could have attacked crime at its roots. Rather than constructing prisons to accommodate greater repression under the Conservatives' most recent measures, Canada could have been attacking crime at its roots.

We supported this bill at second reading because we agreed with its principle, but we want to work on improving some of the measures.

We did express some reservations about enforcement and results.

We were particularly concerned that the law might not be enforced uniformly across Canada, especially with regard to victim compensation programs. The lack of a compensation program in Ontario and Newfoundland and Labrador, as noted in this bill, limits the extent to which the government's changes can be put into practice.

Thus, the consequences of a crime committed in Montreal would not be the same as if the same crime were committed in Toronto. We cannot create a law like this and find out that some of its elements are completely non-operational in some part of the country.

Therefore, the federal authorities must sit down with their provincial counterparts to make sure there is one justice system for everyone and not a two-tier system because of a lack of structure.

At the moment, the federal program for assistance to victims of crime has a budget of $16 million, but only $3 million is being used. Over 80% of the budget envelope is not being used. Once again, it is essential that the government not limit itself to the surface aspects alone. Once the legislative process is complete, it must really work on enforcement. It is important that the money be set aside for victims of crime, but it is even more important for the victims to actually benefit from that money.

Moreover, crime costs Canada about $70 billion a year, and 70% of that is borne by the victims. In that context, it is essential that the money raised through the surcharge really go to the victims and that additional funds be provided.

We agree completely with the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, who argues for increased funding of programs for this often-neglected group of people, who are directly affected by the Conservative government's budget cuts.

I also want to use this time to call upon the Canadian government to take inspiration form initiatives outside our borders. For example, the United Kingdom and other countries are developing a more evolved concept of restorative justice for victims and for offenders. It would be useful for the Conservatives to consider such ideas seriously as they develop their policies.

The ideas of mutual assistance, mediation between the parties, reparation of the damage caused and restitution would be stressed, for the good of both victims and ex-offenders. Why could we not take our justice system to another level, and go beyond mere technocratic logic?

In conclusion, we will be supporting Bill C-37. We believe that this measure is justified, that it responds to what the community wants and that it will help victims. However, we think it is essential that this government make sure that these measures are applied effectively. We cannot allow a law not to be fair to everyone, from one province to another.

We think the government has to explore other avenues, to develop a modern, proactive system that both promotes rehabilitation and supports victims. One thing is certain: we will be keeping a close eye on how Bill C-37 is administered, and we will continue to stand up both for victims and for rehabilitation of criminals.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for her remarks and support of this great bill, with its long overdue reforms. I can see that my colleague agrees with her colleague who spoke earlier that it is difficult to oppose virtue. I can only hope that this catches on all across the opposition.

I want to mention one thing relating specifically to another Liberal colleague who spoke before her. He did not ever actually deny my assertion that our bill does not require anyone to go to jail because the person cannot afford to pay a fine. He failed to mention the specific section of the Criminal Code. It is section 734.7, which states that a “court shall not issue a warrant of committal in default of payment of a fine...unless the court is satisfied...that the offender has, without reasonable excuse, refused to pay...”. Therefore, if there is a reasonable excuse, no one watching today needs to worry that anyone will ever go to jail if he or she has a reasonable excuse for not paying a fine.

Regarding the comments of the member who just spoke, I would also mention that if she were to visit the website of the Minister of Public Safety and corrections, she would find that the government has just recently sponsored a symposium on restorative justice and is sponsoring many programs across the country on restorative justice. That is just part of our balanced approach.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

I would simply like to remind the House of how important the NDP believes judges’ discretion to be. There is no doubt in our minds that these powers are in fact discretionary and that it is important to ensure that the integrity of the judiciary is recognized and upheld.

On the question of the victim surcharge, obviously, as I explained, this bill unfortunately does not go far enough when it comes to prevention. This does not mean using punishment as a deterrent; we know there is the whole area of prevention and rehabilitation to be considered when it comes to crime.

As a democratic party, we can never stress this enough, and we reiterate our position on this.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to refer to the comment by the previous Conservative speaker, who had a question for my hon. colleague from the NDP, because I do not think he understands how our legislative process works. When a new law is passed it overwrites or supercedes previous laws, unless we are talking about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the Constitution. We cannot change those without a much more elaborate process. However, when we have a new law with new provisions, in this case creating real doubt about what happens when a person cannot pay his or her debt, we do have a new problem.

He perhaps does not understand that the Criminal Code is simply previous legislation, and it can be changed by any bill that comes into the House and is passed.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, right off, I do not know whether I am the right person to answer that question. I could leave it to my colleague opposite to answer it, but I will answer.

There is no doubt that this bill focuses on victims and all the assistance we can provide for them. That is why we support it. That is not the case for victim surcharges, which are essentially intended to hold offenders accountable. I will say it again, since it is really of crucial importance: we cannot fight crime through punishment alone; there has to be an element of prevention and an element of rehabilitation, which will create a society with a justice system that is as clear and fair as possible. That is how I would answer.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, because of my ongoing concern with shedding light on the concrete application and real impact of measures designed to address a social issue that has been identified, it strikes me as essential to introduce into this debate a number of imponderables with respect to cases that give rise to the imposition of a victim surcharge by a sitting judge in a criminal court.

At the risk of being redundant and repeating myself, I will draw upon my past experience in a legal aid office to illustrate what I am talking about. When I joined the legal aid office, one of the first concepts that I learned was the ability to pay. I had been provided with a binder showing the financial scales applicable to individuals, meaning clients, who came to our office to check whether they were financially eligible to obtain legal aid, whether for criminal or civil cases. It is one of the first concepts you learn when you begin in the practice.

When I joined the Sept-Îles legal aid office in 2007, the financial limit was approximately $20,000 to $25,000 for a person to be eligible for free services. If the amount exceeded $20,000 to $25,000, then services were still available, although a small financial contribution from the client was required. Allow me to reiterate that this is one of the first concepts you learn when you begin practising law.

When you meet a client, you need to complete a fact sheet that includes information such as principal source of income and all sources of additional earnings. These are the first things you learn. You complete the fact sheet and before meeting clients, you check it to determine whether they are eligible for services.

Even though I have been referring to this financial scale, most of my legal aid clients were of course receiving social assistance or other income security benefits. They were therefore eligible for the services provided by the legal aid office. For me, it became pretty much automatic. My employer at the time, the attorney who introduced me to practising in the trenches, instilled this reflex in me to some degree. After completing one's submissions on sentencing, one says, more often than not, “I would ask that my client be exempted from paying the surcharge because he is receiving social assistance.”

Even today, although I have not been pleading cases for two years, it is still mechanical, by which I mean that I can repeat this stock phrase from memory. It was somewhat redundant, because at the end of each of my cases, I had to repeat this set phrase because most of my clients were social assistance recipients. Even when I was in private practice, I was first and foremost handling legal aid assignments. It became second nature to me.

In short, if the lawyer tells the judge that the client should be exempted from paying the surcharge upon sentencing, then the judge has to decide on the sentence applicable to the individual on the basis of that person’s sources of income and ability to pay a fine. I will refer to this later and will go into the subject in more detail. I simply wanted to raise this concept.

An offender's ability to pay is the determining factor at the submissions on sentencing stage. Like the codified guidelines applicable to cases involving an aboriginal offender, judges have considerable latitude in determining and handing down alternatives to imprisonment. I will refer to the section of the Criminal Code that covers this particular case.

But we must understand that judges have some latitude when sentencing. Although it is not mandatory, the judge will still ask questions to see what sentence would be appropriate in a given case. Judges have few options, meaning that they can choose from among two or three options: either a prison sentence, a fine or community service. It always depends on the individual's willingness and ability to pay a fine.

Earlier I mentioned the Criminal Code. I will now read part of it. It is sometimes a good idea to refer to the wording of legislation, because it helps prevent mistakes. So that is what I will do. Paragraph 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code states:

718.2 A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:...

(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.

When I was practising law, I dealt with aboriginal offenders every day, since most of my clients were Innu and Naskapi people from my riding.

This paragraph in the Criminal Code indicates that the judge must make decisions regarding alternatives to a prison sentence in a given case. Obviously, this type of sentence does not apply only to aboriginal offenders, but it applies to them in particular.

The Supreme Court of Canada also ruled that an offender cannot be imprisoned for not paying a fine if he or she is truly unable to pay it. The judge has some latitude in verifying the offender's true willingness to pay.

Generally speaking, when clients, especially those receiving social assistance, are exempted from paying the fine, there may be an alternative sentence. I have seen this in some instances. Even if the client is on social assistance, he must pay the fine if the judge deems him capable of doing so. However, a schedule of payments will be established. The judge will ask how much the person would be prepared to pay on a monthly basis to discharge the fine. Simply because people are receiving social assistance or some other form of income support does not necessarily mean that they will not have to pay anything. There is always that possibility, even if the person has limited financial resources. There is always the possibility of paying a fine. I am not speaking about a surcharge, but rather a fine. First and foremost, the judge will attempt to determine whether it would be preferable for the person to do community service or to make a donation.

As for the surcharge, when the client is receiving income security benefits, the judge will tend not to require payment of the surcharge. The judge will even exempt the offender from paying it because the offender’s ability to pay is already limited. The surcharge, it should not be forgotten, is above all for people who have financial assets, perhaps not considerable assets, but enough in the end to pay the surcharge.

The surcharge is mainly intended to make people accountable. It is a form of empowerment to encourage the individual to take responsibility and give back to society. That is the ultimate reason for assessing a victim surcharge.

When all is said and done, I believe that the important thing to remember is the compensation aspect of the surcharge to be paid by an offender. There is an etymological perspective here too.

The funds raised by the surcharge partly pay for services to crime victims. In Quebec, there is IVAC, the Crime Victims Compensation Act. Under this act, victims receive the compensation surcharge directly, which is enough of a reason to support this bill at third reading.

I will now move on to a brief aside to discuss crime victims compensation boards.

Lawyers, at least practising litigators, work on a regular basis with IVAC. Even in the Sept-Îles courtroom, the IVAC office was right beside the Crown attorneys’ office. Most of the people working for IVAC are social workers. They attend nearly all of the hearings. I used to kid around with some of them who were more knowledgeable about law than I was after only a year, because they attended the hearings for virtually all the courtroom cases.

In short, some of the victim surcharges would ultimately be redirected to the crime victims compensation boards. These boards are extremely important. The workers there deal mainly with victims and children. If you visit, you will see some toys for children to play with. They are friendly and family oriented because there is a wide variety of victims. It is therefore essential for the funds that are collected to be redistributed. Those who ultimately have the ability to pay, those with substantial income, and those with solid financial assets who are capable of paying, should be held accountable and required to pay a higher surcharge so that the services so essential to the maintenance of acceptable social standards can be provided.

I submit this respectfully.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his speech. I listened to what he said very carefully and I have a question for him, since he is very knowledgeable about the aboriginal population and legislation.

The majority of women who are incarcerated, 92%, are aboriginal, while 82% have generally experienced physical or sexual abuse. Unfortunately, they end up behind bars because of a lack of resources. In my opinion a societal problem is at the root of this crime problem, and the situation needs to be examined more fully.

I would like to hear more from my colleague about the aboriginal population and in particular about aboriginal women.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her question.

When I stated that the majority, if not virtually all, of my clients were aboriginal, it is important to understand that where I come from, the figure is not necessarily 91%. The statistics we had at the time showed that 75% were aboriginal.

When we go and meet with inmates in the basement of the courthouse in Sept-Îles—and even in Baie-Comeau, since space is fairly limited at the courthouse in Sept-Îles—it is quite obvious to us that the inmates are primarily aboriginal. This is unfortunate, but it is also a reflection of the breakdown of the communities’ social fabric. Deviant elements can be observed every day on reserves. There are nearly 15,000 Indians in my riding: Innu and Naskapi. So then, by force of circumstance, deviant behaviours can also be observed in the communities. It is most unfortunate, but this is first and foremost a societal problem that must be addressed from within.

As for the victim surcharge, it is important to understand that there were many female clients, especially in light of the number of cases of domestic violence that I handled. Many female aboriginal clients will also turn to the criminal injuries compensation board. So then, in the final analysis, increasing accountability by raising the victim surcharge amounts can only be beneficial to the healing process and the social intervention that must take place in cases of domestic violence.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, several of my colleagues in the House have talked about how important it is for the judge to have some discretionary decision-making powers. I personally am not a legal expert, but the basis of their argument is that no two situations are identical and that therefore, the facts and the environment are not the same in every case.

Applying this premise to first nations communities, I would be interested to hear my colleague’s views.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

I mentioned section 718.2 of the Criminal Code. A provision in the code already deals with aboriginal offenders. However, I have seen a few lawyers specifically refer to this provision at the time of sentencing, when presenting their sentencing arguments. Some of my colleagues mentioned this provision. They reminded the judge that pursuant to section 718.2, the court had to take into account the circumstances and the fact that their client was aboriginal. The judge, however, is not necessarily bound by this. He must look at whether a sanction other than imprisonment can be considered.

However, there are limitations. At some point, an individual must be held accountable. In the case of repeat offenders, ultimately if there is no sanction other than imprisonment that is deemed appropriate, then the judge will sentence the offender to prison. I saw this happen during my years as a practising lawyer pleading cases. So then, even though there is a specific provision in the Criminal Code, the judge is not necessarily bound 100% by it. He must consider the circumstances, but there are limitations and ultimately, the offender must bear responsibility for his actions.

That is all I have to say.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to stand in the House to speak to Bill C-37. New Democrats support the bill in principle, which I am sure comes as a welcome relief for my colleagues across the way. We support the bill, first and foremost, because we support victims of crime, their families and communities.

We take note of the recommendations made by the Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, whose office wrote four years ago that it recommended repealing subsections 737(5) and (6) of the Criminal Code to remove all discretion of judges to weigh the surcharge and make it automatic in all cases. The removal of the discretion of judges has been the subject of some debate in the House.

The report went on to say that judges' discretion had been widely and improperly applied. As well, the judges themselves wrote the Minister of Justice asking him to push for the doubling of these fines. As far as the doubling of fines, New Democrats support the bill and its recommendations, but I would like to offer some food for thought.

While we support Bill C-37, there are some concerns that persist as to the administration of these funds and what they are intended to accomplish. In administering these funds, are we truly providing victims with justice? That is a question I will look at a little later.

I want to make it very clear that providing services to crime victims has always been and will continue to be our priority. Using these funds in a transparent way to meet the needs of crime victims is a step in the right direction.

We must not lose sight of the larger goal of preventing such criminality in the first place. Too often criminal action is the direct outcome of social and economic precariousness. Too often crime is the terrible yet predictable consequence of poverty and a seemingly hopeless future. Too often we try to address the needs of victims while ensnaring those who have already been disenfranchised in a cycle of marginalization.

The question is this. Can we address the needs of victims without ensnaring those who have already been disenfranchised and caught in a cycle of marginalization? We have to focus our energies on preventing that disenfranchisement, that marginalization, as well as those criminal acts, thereby reducing the number of victims.

It is not always easy, of course. When confronted with the aftermath of crime, we react with disgust, revulsion, anger or a desire for vengeance. Less than a week ago, the members of the House rose to observe a minute of silence. We remembered the 14 women who died as a result of a horrific crime committed in my hometown of Montreal.

This is a time when we are all conscious of the horror of violence and, in particular, gender-based violence. Just as we will never forget what happened that day, we cannot permit ourselves to do simply the minimum of only addressing the issue of crime with punitive measures. As my grandmother would say, “It's kind of like closing the barn door after the horse has left”.

We must acknowledge that punishment and fines only hold so much sway. In all honesty, our citizens demand more from us. They know that crimes are committed for complicated reasons and while supporting victims is our clear and primary objective, preventing future victims and future victimization by preventing future criminality is, by far, the best use of our resources, our talents and our time.

I would like to give my esteemed colleagues an example of the complexity of this issue and the need for a more comprehensive approach to criminality. It is a point that was brought up by one of my colleagues earlier in her question. We know that 82% of incarcerated women were previously victims of physical or sexual aggression. I would like to add to that the fact that 91% of incarcerated women are of first nations origin, a vast overrepresentation. One has to ask where was the victim support that they needed, whether financial, psychological or sociological?

These statistics illustrate the need for victim support, for better financing of victims services but also for a more restorative and holistic justice system. These women who were abused, for what ever reason, self-esteem, a need to survive, resorted to criminal acts: a bounced cheque, prostitution, petty theft. If there were services that helped them regain their self-esteem, to help them through that process, frankly, if we as a society knew a little more and spent more energy educating ourselves on the long-term effects of sexual aggression and gender violence, would this 82% of women be incarcerated? That is a question we need to ask ourselves.

Increased fines are increased fines; they help to a certain extent. The projected use for these fines, as I understand it, is to go to victims services, but in what way? We are seeing a weakening of the services available to victims. It is a step in the right direction, but the fines, increased or not, do not and will not interrupt the cycle of crime.

The judicial system in Quebec, my home province, favours reforms and reintegration to ensure justice. The proof of this approach can be found in a tour of the neighbourhoods of Petite-Bourgogne, Saint-Henri and Pointe Saint-Charles in my riding.

I am very proud to represent these communities. Anyone who tours these neighbourhoods will see how areas once riddled with crime can be transformed with the proper guidance.

We unequivocally support increased funding of services for crime victims. Providing better funding and an open, transparent system that gives victims access to the services they need is an important measure.

Support for victims services has to be more than just charging more money to criminals. It has to be more for the simple reason that I would think a considerable majority of these petty criminals would have very little to give to these organizations. Our energy needs to be put into creating financial support for victims of crime through organizations and support that is about restoration, not only of what was taken from them but what they feel they have lost.

I was robbed once. Someone broke into my condo in a very timely manner when the all the alarm systems were being redone. Yes, it was suspicious. However, one comes home to the feeling of someone being in one's apartment, going through one's things and not only taking things that are of value financially but things that are of value because they were given from a child or they were the last thing given by a grandparent. Although my mother raised fairly strong children, it took a long time for me to get through that sense of violation, and that was only from having my home burglarized.

As I have mentioned, there is a need for victims services. However, for those people who find themselves in marginalized, disenfranchised and isolated situations, it is of the utmost importance. Having those services could very well prevent a large number of these types of crimes, where some women find themselves on the wrong side of the law. These are crimes of survival and of need.

We have to look at justice as a three dimensional thing. It is not simply that because one did something wrong that one needs to go to jail. We need to understand why people do the things they do.

Criminals are criminals. They are going to do things, be bad people and they will pay for it as the justice system allows. However, not every criminal has a criminal mind. There is a reason for their criminality. Therefore, there is a need to have more resources put into making sure that victims of crime, victims of sexual abuse and gender violence, are not placed in a position where they have to commit a crime because the criminal acts put upon them dehumanized them so much that they could not function in society.

There are very important interventions that we need and can make, financial interventions, support for these organizations and support for people who have lost loved ones or who have lost fortunes. They are important among the many things that we can undertake as we seek to improve our justice system.

Our aim needs to be to make our justice more logical, more balanced and, indeed, more helpful to our citizens. This is what we hope the government will take away from these debates we have been having on a bill that we do support, but there is something that is missing from that bill. It is that restorative outlook in what we can do to prevent the creation of more victims as opposed to overly punishing criminals.

There is something that keeps sort of popping into this discussion whenever we discuss any of these bill, which is that the opposition supports crimes or that it is soft on crime.

We need to remember that the laws we have in place, even those laws that are abused by those who commit crimes, those laws are actually in place to protect the innocent. They are there to ensure that governments and police law enforcement agencies do not run roughshod over people's constitutional rights. They are not there to protect criminals. They are there to protect those people from getting caught in a situation not of their making and having every recourse of the law to ensure they can prove their innocence.

Unfortunately, like anything else, somebody who wants to abuse that will abuse it, but we cannot change those protections because we are afraid of those who abuse it. If we do, we law-abiding citizens, Canadians, will lose those protections ourselves.

I will just reiterate the last part of my speech by saying that the interventions, such as support for victim groups, is incredibly important and we must make every effort to make our justice system more logical, more balance and more helpful to all our citizens.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments that were made by the member. We do need to talk a lot more about the issue of restorative justice.

I would ask the member to provide some comments on restorative justice, if he has some thoughts he would like to share.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my experience, though limited with restorative justice, is in the juvenile area.

We have a situation here where young people will commit a crime for the silliest of reasons and be subject to laws that are unduly harsh for the situation they are in, unduly harsh because they are spending time in an environment, prison, where they themselves will become victims, where they themselves will learn the tools of a trade that we do not want them to learn.

What we need to do in terms of restorative justice is to ensure they not only understand what they have done, they understand the consequences and feel the consequences, but that they can take that education back out into the world and become a better citizen.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Questions and comments? Resuming debate. Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the vote be deferred until tomorrow following government orders.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Accordingly, the recorded division is deferred until tomorrow at the end of government orders.

It being 5:30, the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from December 7 consideration of Bill C-377, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (requirements for labour organizations), as reported (without amendment) from the committee, and of the motions in Group No. 1.