House of Commons Hansard #124 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, again, I will correct the hon. member's perception. There is a significant increase to the amount of funding provided for aboriginal consultation, an increase of $1.5 million. As I said earlier, the bulk of that will go to the consultation. A very small amount will be used for administrative purposes.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, I did not get the figure I was asking for, namely what part of the $13.6 million announced will be specifically allocated to the first nations communities for consultation purposes. I would appreciate an answer.
As far as the $1.5 million is concerned, again, by all accounts it seems to be old money in a new announcement.
Is the minister considering increasing the allocation for environmental consultations with aboriginal communities, and if so, by how much?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, I would be delighted to enlighten my colleague. There has been no re-announcement. This is new money. The department will spend $6.8 million annually, $2.2 million plus the $1.5 million in new money will go to first nations.
The agency will provide and use the rest of that money for the consultation process.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, is the minister telling me that the full amount that was announced previous to this budget was fully spent?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, the amount is still to be determined. Again, I emphasize that this $1.5 million is new money. It is not re-announced.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, it appears in the new legislation that reports undertaken for proponents will stop the clock on the timelines that will be undertaken by environmental reviews, but it is not as clear if first nations will ever interact with decision makers under the act. This is because many decisions made under the budget implementation act will be made by cabinet.
The Minister of Finance could not answer this question at committee today, even though it is his bill. Hopefully the minister will be able to answer the question.
Could the minister please advise if reports under section 23(2), which are suitable for stopping the clock under section 27(6), include studies undertaken for the purpose of consultation?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, again, I would remind my colleague that the significant changes under this legislation are on the National Energy Board and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission side of the process. The minister and the Governor-in-Council have always had the authority to accept or to deny decisions from panels or comprehensive studies at any level.
We are now merely harmonizing the process on both sides of the assessment process.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, maybe the minister could elaborate as to why it is the primary responsibility for engagement. Why is the primary responsibility for engagement given to proponents?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, the entire concept of environmental assessment is, on one hand, for a proponent to bring a project forward to be assessed to see whether it will cause a significant negative environmental impact. The other side of the process is for the agency, through its panels or through studies at the provincial level, to determine how to mitigate those negative impacts.
That process is in place. It will be more effectively in place under the new legislation.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, could the minister advise whether first nations will ever actually meet any Crown decision makers during the consultation/accommodation process?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, I am glad to assure my colleague that we recognize this. In my talks with Grand Chief Atleo, we have made a commitment that consultations will begin much earlier in the process, at the beginning of the process in fact, and that these consultations will continue through the assessment process.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, would the minister tell me how many first nations the government plans to consult?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, that number is a very large number. It has any number of permutations and combinations, depending upon the project which may be proposed. We have a statutory obligation. Under CEAA and under the new regulation, we will again consult as specified in the legislation.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, I take it that not all first nations will be consulted, and that is a shame. This is exactly what we have seen over and over again from the government.
For many years, first nations communities have had a hard time with the application of the CEAA in traditional territories. If the law does not address the issue of aboriginal title, it will create a regulatory vacuum wherein neither the federal government nor the province will have the clear ability to assess environmental impacts. The same reasoning applies to the Keewatin lands in Ontario.
What is the government's position on the issue of federal lands, given that it is extremely likely that aboriginal title will be recognized by a court in the next few years?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Again, Mr. Chair, I must correct the inaccuracies and the fear-mongering of my colleague.
It depends upon the projects. However, any first nations, whether treaty bands, or Métis, or Inuit, that are in close proximity and will be affected by a proposed project will be engaged and involved fully in the consultations.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, I do not believe he answered my question, and I think he is having difficulty this evening, perhaps because it is rather late.
What is the government's position on the recent Keewatin decision, which states that various takings up of lands by Ontario were illegal because they constituted a violation of Treaty 3?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, I would suggest that my colleague raise that question at Queen's Park. It is just down the highway.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, I think the minister has a role to play here, and obviously he is shirking that responsibility.
CEAA 2012 contains a great deal about public participation and the use of an Internet site. The duty to consult and accommodate at the low end of the scale requires government to provide notice and opportunity to comment to first nations. To a reasonable person, “notice” means first nations would actually be contacted and provided with information. Where there is a digital divide in the country, which the government has failed to address, even the broad interpretation of notice does not hold water.
How will the government fulfill its constitutional obligation to provide notice to first nations potentially affected by development?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, I am delighted to enlighten my colleague.
The consultation process has many dimensions. There is initial contact made when a project comes before the agency. The agency will visit in any number of situations with first nations, either individually or in groups. We will assist financially in their ability to appear before federal panels, in the case of federal panels, to make sure that they convey as fully as possible their interests and concerns.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, I hope that the notice is not going to be on a government website and the government is going to say it has been there for months. As the minister knows, in some of our ridings the access to Internet ranges from very limited to none.
We all know that cabinet decisions are subject to cabinet confidence. As experience has shown us, this government has been remarkably expansive in its interpretation of cabinet confidence. What is discussed in cabinet meetings and even the documents provided to cabinet are cloaked in secrecy. If first nations want to know whether their rights and interests have been accommodated or even acknowledged, it appears the only vehicle for finding out is using a costly and lengthy discovery process through litigation.
Exactly what information will be available to the public on the many cabinet decisions that will be made under this legislation?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, the principle of cabinet confidence is a long and historic one. Through the consultation process a dialogue is maintained, and when decisions are made, those decisions are shared effectively with all affected parties, first nations included.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, certain provisions of CEAA 2012 contain expansive powers for a responsible authority to compel information relevant to an assessment. There appear to be no exceptions for matters of privacy and privilege.
How will disclosure provisions in CEAA 2012 interact with access to information privacy, solicitor-client privilege, and first nation ownership, control, access and possession of information? Will the government release strength of claim analyses to first nations?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, when the CEAA 2012 comes into effect, the procedures and processes will be transitioned, and they will develop according to the specific legislation.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Chair, why did the government remove paragraph 59 (l), which allowed first nations to make their own environmental assessment regulations, and instead insert section 67, which appears to require cabinet approval for government-funded projects occurring on reserve?
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Chair, I can only say that Environment Canada has ultimate responsibility for environmental considerations across the country, including the provinces, the territories, federal lands and first nations lands. We exercise that authority in very close and considerate consultation with the first nations and we will continue to do so in the future.