House of Commons Hansard #155 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-21.

Topics

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, many of the provisions in the bill are based on recommendations that came from the Chief Electoral Officer, and that is as it should be. This is an impartial individual who oversees the Canada Elections Act.

On the positive side, Elections Canada is a very well-reputed organization. It has good standing with an international reputation. However, as the member points out, this stuff gets complicated, even for MPs. We want to follow the rules and do what is right, but there are so many nuances and things to pay attention to in terms of election financial reporting and so on. Therefore, anything we can do, through this bill or other measures, would make the process clearer and more transparent for both ourselves and the general public in terms of accountability.

We have seen all kinds of awful situations. For example, the in and out advertising scheme that the Conservatives engaged in. They basically denied that they did anything wrong and then pleaded guilty at the end and had to pay fines. Clearly there are issues that still have to be addressed and I think that we should pay attention to the Chief Electoral Officer.

Bill C-21 is one step, but this is something that needs our ongoing vigilance.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to say that I greatly admire my colleague from Vancouver East for her great wisdom and all the experience she brings to our discussions.

Earlier, she mentioned the shortcomings of Bill C-21. Based on her experience, which important issues should be discussed in committee, once the bill reaches the committee stage?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do not know specifically of any loopholes. However, I asked the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader earlier what he thought about loopholes, as he has been very involved with the bill, and he did mention one potential area where something could apply locally but not at a national level.

Maybe there are no loopholes in the bill, maybe it is airtight. However, it does require a very close examination to ensure that one cannot get around the principles being put forward on loans by doing indirectly what one is not allowed to do directly.

I have full confidence that the NDP members on committee who get this bill will do their due diligence in examining the bill in great detail. Maybe there will be amendments and when it comes back at report stage we will have an improved bill. We know what we are looking for and what we want to accomplish here, but I think that will be the work of the committee. I look forward to it.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise here in the House and to take part in today's debate on Bill C-21. I would like to begin my comments on this bill by paying tribute to a former leader of the New Democratic Party of Canada, who represented the Ottawa Centre riding, for he was the first person to point out that the political donation regime in this country has a very obvious loophole. Mr. Broadbent had the sense to recognize that even though the maximum amounts of money that can be donated to a political campaign or to a political party had been reduced, by allowing these huge loans, which never really have to be paid back, it was obvious that somebody with a lack of ethical standards would take advantage of that loophole and act as though there were no financial limits. I therefore wish to recognize Mr. Broadbent for raising this issue for us in his ethics package.

The reforms to our political financing regime introduced by the Liberal government in 2003 limited donations to political parties from individuals and corporations, but, they did not limit political loans. The Federal Accountability Act, which passed in 2006, amended the political financing regime by lowering private contribution limits from $5,000 to $1,000, but it did not address the question of loans. That explains why we are debating this here today, and that is what Bill C-21 is meant to correct. Everyone agrees that this is a problem. We need to listen to all of the solutions being proposed and, together, come up with the best way to solve the problem.

Bill C-21 proposes prohibiting unions and corporations from granting loans to political parties and election candidates. Most of these changes were requested by the Chief Electoral Officer some years ago. Indeed, in 2007, the Chief Electoral Officer published a report on political financing that included a series of recommendations. The Chief Electoral Officer's proposed changes were aimed at limiting the influence of individuals or corporations on political parties, since this can occur through financing. Bill C-21 is based largely on those recommendations, which is why we support it at second reading.

This bill, if passed, would establish a strict reporting regime for all political loans, which would include the mandatory disclosure of the identity of the lender and the terms of the loan, such as the interest rates. In addition, loans by individuals would be limited to $1,100 and only banks and political parties would be authorized to lend higher amounts. Under this bill, loans from individuals not repaid within 18 months would be considered contributions, and loans not repaid to financial institutions would be transferred to riding associations, which would become responsible for their repayment.

At present, the rules for political loans do not satisfy the standards of accountability, integrity and transparency that Canadians expect of their political process. I cannot emphasize enough how important this is. In that regard, Bill C-21 seems to be a step in the right direction and that is why the NDP will support it. Believe me, we are here to support any good initiative. For once, the government is headed in the right direction.

These new measures will foster greater fairness and ensure that the political process is and will always be in the hands of the people. A campaign should always be about ideas and not about who can spend the most money. That is not what a leadership race should be about. Members must first and foremost be accountable to their voters. It is important to eliminate the possibility of undue influence of elected representatives by corporations.

Bill C-21 would also amend rules for leadership races. In that regard, the most striking example, and the one that has garnered the most public attention, is the Liberal Party of Canada leadership race.

Even if companies and unions did not have the right to contribute a single dollar, they could still lend tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Individuals could also lend much more than they were allowed to donate. We do not want to see a repeat of what happened with that party, where six years later, leadership candidates seem to have simply abandoned the idea of repaying their campaign debts. It is completely unacceptable.

If that is the case and a candidate was backed by individuals, then in reality those individuals bankrolled a big part of the candidate's campaign. If the debt is never paid off, then we end up in exactly the situation that we are trying to avoid, which is single individuals, single corporations and single unions providing tens, and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to one candidate.

Liberal members point out that Bill C-21 could prevent more women from entering politics. I think that the reverse is true. The bill will level the playing field so that people who are sponsored by companies, as was the case in the Liberal Party of Canada leadership race, will not have a competitive advantage over a woman who does not have this sort of backing. The purpose of Bill C-21 is to eliminate the influence of the wealthy in politics, while the under-representation of women in politics is a complex issue due to many factors that go well beyond political loans.

Some members are wondering how they will be able to raise money if backers are only authorized to donate a maximum of $1,100 per candidate. They are also concerned about the fact that Bill C-21 will prevent donors from making a donation to a leadership contestant if the candidate has outstanding debts.

The Chief Electoral Officer, Marc Mayrand, recently made a very important statement. He said that it is virtually impossible to enforce the law on political loans because it is “not only overly complex, it's incoherent and ineffective.”

We have this expertise, we have recommendations from Elections Canada. This is an example that relates to Bill C-21. However, in all kinds of other scandals where we have to shed light on what happened, it is important—I cannot repeat that enough—for this government to listen to recommendations from Elections Canada and the experts working in the field, to take the necessary action.

A number of these concerns from people in the field are legitimate, and that is why we must carefully examine each clause of this bill. I hope that there will be some latitude in committee to discuss what kind of system to adopt and what protection measures could be implemented. Every time we consider limiting the ways Canadians can collect funds to participate in an election, we must ensure not only that the system is fair, but also that everyone has access to funding, regardless of political affiliation.

We support the idea of eliminating the loophole. However, we feel that some improvements are necessary in order to strengthen our system.

We are very concerned to see banks and other financial institutions become the sole sources of financing without being required to subsidize all parties, regardless of the circumstances. This is a big problem, but we can resolve it. If we want, we can find ways to include conditions that would be acceptable to everyone involved, in order to make things fairer.

I am sure that we could find a solution that would meet the government's objectives—to standardize the financial rules—and ensure that our electoral laws are applied equally across the country, so that in future federal elections, everyone—and I mean everyone—has equal opportunity and those who are supported by certain companies do not have an unfair competitive advantage.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, in the last election in May 2011, the NDP succeeded in getting a record 40% women elected. Women were also very well represented in our leadership race.

In the opinion of my colleague from Québec, how important is it to fix the rules on political loans with respect to women's representation in politics? In society, women account not for 40% or 30% of the population, but 51%. How could the rules we would like to see adopted here create a more gender-balanced representation in the House of Commons? I see it as essential.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for bringing up this important point.

We can never repeat it enough: the NDP made a historic achievement when 40% of its elected candidates were women; no other party has ever achieved such a record. I believe we can congratulate ourselves, because it is fantastic. I thank my colleague for bringing it up. Women's rights are important. This is a point we have also raised when discussing other bills, which shows how strongly we support it.

Bill C-21 really aims to eliminate the influence of the richest participants in politics, so that one candidate is not favoured over another, or a female candidate is not favoured over a male one. This is a very important objective, in my eyes. The goal is not to favour one party or one group over another.

This is what we will need to discuss in depth when the committee studies this bill, to ensure there is no favouritism and all candidates have an equal chance. I believe it is important, and it also speaks to what democracy is all about. I know everyone on this side of the House shares this idea with deep conviction.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to give sincere thanks to my colleague for what she told us today and for speaking with the conviction which accurately reflects what motivates us.

I hope that the people who are listening to what goes on in the House at the moment can hear the originality and sense of political renewal that characterize her and that have characterized the party for a long time now.

In her view, could we not imagine that giving a signal that politics can be virtuous might be the beginning of a promising collaboration?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have caught the ball on the fly and I am also going to talk about another historic exploit accomplished by the NDP. We are going to talk about it. Let us talk about our young people. It is fantastic. People cannot get over the fact that our party is made up of people from 20 to 70 years old, and even a little older. We have brought together people from all generations and this is a wonderful thing. I commend Jack Layton on his excellent work. I also applaud the work that has been done by my leader. It is like a breath of fresh air and we all want to start out on an equal footing.

I was saying that the NDP does not automatically favour men rather than women and I can also say that we do not favour those who are older as opposed to those who are younger and who are able to rise to the challenge of carrying on a real debate here in the House and proudly representing their regions and their constituents.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague on her excellent speech and on the passion with which she speaks every day in this House.

On reading the bill, I found a flaw in terms of financial institutions. In my colleague's view, is it possible that financial institutions might prefer certain political parties rather than others?

Does my colleague agree that this question should receive further consideration?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague has just raised an excellent point.

It is not a matter of putting everything into the hands of the financial institutions but really of ensuring that everyone has an equal chance. I think this is really the solution. We will have to consider all aspects of any concrete solution that is put forward in committee in order to remedy this problem.

There is indeed a problem. We saw it during the Liberals’ leadership race. We want to resolve this issue and we will have to hold a debate about it in committee.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak to Bill C-21 which, for reasons I will explain in a moment, the Liberals will oppose.

The bill does a number of things. It amends the Canada Elections Act in the following ways: All loans to political entities, including mandatory disclosure of terms and the identity of all lenders and loan guarantees, must be uniform and transparent. We are fine with that. Unions and corporations are prohibited from making loans to political parties, associations, or candidates. That is fine. Limiting the amount of loans and loan guarantees that individuals can make within the framework of the permitted individual annual contribution is also fine. Limiting the ability of financial institutions and political entities to make loans beyond the annual contribution limit for individuals and only at commercial rates of interest is the part we do not agree with. Finally, there are tighter rules for the treatment of unpaid loans to ensure candidates cannot walk away from unpaid loans.

The Liberal caucus certainly is in favour of full transparency and disclosure of political loans. We are also in favour of forcing those loans to bear commercial interest rates.

What is a problem for us is when the bill says that only financial institutions or banks will have the authority to make these loans.

Before entering politics, 12 years ago, I worked for the Royal Bank. So I am well aware of how banks work. In my view, it is not the banks that asked for this exclusive authority, but rather the government that wants to give it to them. This puts too much power into the hands of the banks. Basically, the banks would have the authority to make political choices by lending money to the candidate they like the most and by not giving a loan to a candidate they do not like. I am not saying that that is what they would do, but all the same, it gives excessive power to the financial institutions.

Furthermore, with these rules, the candidates with more money, the candidates who are wealthier, would have an advantage, because they would have a better credit rating than candidates who are not as wealthy. This kind of system would favour the rich rather than treating everyone fairly. The system might also be unfavourable to women, especially to those who are going back into the labour market after a number of years at home. They might be less able to borrow money from a bank because they would not have as much money.

For all of these reasons, the Liberals will be voting against this bill.

I want to emphasize that it is only the exclusive aspect of the banks being the only lenders that we object to. We are entirely in favour of total transparency, total disclosure, the requirement to pay commercial interest rates, and so on.

In closing, I would remind the House that the Prime Minister has not, to this day, disclosed any of the names of the people who contributed to his leadership campaign, let alone the sums involved, let alone whether he borrowed any money. I would say that what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. I would suggest that as the government is moving forward with this law, now would be a good time for the Prime Minister to disclose at least the names of his donors, if not the amounts.

Perhaps during questions and comments one of the Conservatives could give their view on the proposition I just put forward.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am a little bit surprised to learn that the Liberal Party will vote against this bill. Do the Liberals not understand that it is necessary to clarify the rules in order to limit the power held by groups or third parties over funding for political parties?

Perhaps the Liberals do not understand how serious the situation is. An affluent group will be able to give because it has more money, while a rights advocacy group for instance will not be able to donate. There is therefore a chance that a candidate will do what he or she is asked to do by the lender.

Can my Liberal colleague explain a little more clearly why the Liberals have decided to vote against the bill, which seems hypothetically to be a very good thing for our democracy?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think I was very clear on this issue. I said that the Liberals were totally in favour of these transparency rules that aim at disclosing all funding. The only thing we do not like about this bill is that it gives financial institutions exclusive authority for granting loans. I explained our reasons, that it was worse for women and for those who were not as wealthy. This is why we are against it. I think I was clear about this, and I think this is a good reason not to support this bill.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on the fact that this bill might be unfavourable to women. I do not agree at all. Financial institutions are not the only thing that matters when we talk about women becoming involved in politics. It is a social issue and one that relates to the place of women in political parties. It is much more than just a question of money; it is a question of openness, of position and of the steps being taken to promote the involvement of women.

What does the Liberal Party have to propose to encourage women to become more involved in politics, as the NDP has done? Is it prepared to be more open so the interests of women are represented? I can give as an example the vote on motion M-312 earlier this week. There are parties that clearly defend women's rights, such as the NDP, which voted unanimously on that motion this week.

Can the Liberal Party acknowledge the fact that it is not just money that determines whether women become involved in politics or not?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the Liberal Party has been and is still extremely open to women, whether we are talking about women standing for election or becoming involved in other areas.

Our opposition to this bill, to giving the banks exclusive lending authority, is supportive of women. As I said in my speech, of course not all women are poor, but some women who stopped working in order to stay home and who are going back into the labour force may perhaps be less wealthy than some men are.

We are not saying that the banks cannot make loans; we are saying that the banks should not have the exclusive authority to make loans.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Edmonton—Sherwood Park Alberta

Conservative

Tim Uppal ConservativeMinister of State (Democratic Reform)

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see co-operation in the House, which is somewhat unique, to move the bill forward and close the loopholes that need to be closed.

However, it is unfortunate that instead of working with the other parties to move the bill forward and close these loopholes, the members of the Liberal Party have decided to side with their insiders who have yet to pay back their unpaid debts from their leadership races. Despite six years of leniency from Elections Canada, those individuals have not paid these debts back.

Why does the hon. member not believe that it is important to take big money out of the political process? What the bill does is get unions and their big money, corporations and wealthy individuals out. It closes that loophole.

Ordinary Canadians are expected to repay loans with strict rules and guidelines. The same should apply to politicians. Why do the Liberals not believe that?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, if the minister wants to be so terribly co-operative, one way he can get Liberal support is simply to deny the exclusive right of financial institutions to make these loans. It should be broadened. That is what I said in my speech.

If the minister thinks he is so co-operative, why does he not consider an amendment of that kind? Then he would have the Liberals on side. However, he is all keen to go in this one direction without any consideration for compromise or negotiation with us. I do not know why he thinks we should come on bended knee and support his bill for which he has absolutely no flexibility.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that the purpose of the bill is to try to get big money out of financing. The member has mentioned he has problems with it being limited to financial institutions. What kind of entities is he talking about in terms of funding for political candidates?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, individuals perhaps could lend money as long as their identities were made clear, as long as the amounts were made clear and as long as the interest rate was commercial.

For example, sometimes the family members of a candidate might want to lend some money. Maybe we are talking about an individual who does not necessarily have the world's greatest credit rating and might have trouble getting money from the bank in significant quantity. This person might have friends or associates who would be willing to lend him or her some money. As long as it was clear, transparent and at commercial interest rates that would fine and it would give greater flexibility to the system without any loss of transparency.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I know that my Liberal Party colleague is someone who has a great deal of experience and a balanced outlook on life.

It is completely normal for Canadians to question the relationship between economic power and political power, and the impact that financial institutions may have on the economy.

I would like to know a little more about what my colleague would do to ensure that these types of schemes never happen again.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question.

We want these rules to be as transparent as possible. We agree with many items in the bill. The only thing we do not like, as I have said a number of times, is the exclusive authority for financial institutions to make loans. Yes, they can make loans, but others should also be able to do so. This is the biggest change that we would like to make in the bill, but obviously the government does not want to co-operate.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, it is so important to have openness and transparency in the electoral process. Not allowing someone to get a loan from a family member would probably prevent that person from getting involved in politics.

The member is a former bank executive. Banks do not normally give loans to political parties or political individuals. It is very difficult to get a loan from a financial institution for political purposes. Maybe the member could shed some light on that.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was not lending money. My lending limit when I was working for Royal Bank was always zero, so I was not a real banker. I was a chief economist and talked about stuff like that, but I do know a bit about the process.

It is obvious that a bank is a money-making institution. It does not lend money just out of the goodness of its heart. It only lends money when it is pretty sure it will get that money back with interest, so it looks very closely at the credit ratings of individuals in determining whether to lend and how much to lend.

We can be sure that if a candidate does not have the best credit history or perhaps does not have a high-paying job, then that person would have great difficulty getting a loan of any significant amount from a bank. However, that person could perhaps get a loan from colleagues or friends or family. I do not see what is wrong with that as long as that process is transparent and clear. That is the main difference between what we are saying and what the government is saying.

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Is the House ready for the question?

Political Loans Accountability ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.