House of Commons Hansard #14 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was senate.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the parliamentary secretary's address. I am a member of Parliament whose principal residence is in Prince Edward Island. The people of Prince Edward Island were inflamed over the appointment of someone from Kanata to a Prince Edward Island Senate seat. Subsequently they are embarrassed and with the cover-up, they are ashamed that Prince Edward Island s repeatedly in the news and that there is this big cover-up in the Prime Minister's Office.

It struck me in the course of listening to the speech, a great scholar in the House said one day said, “when you throw mud, you lose ground”. Our leader has repeatedly said that while they focus on him, he will focus on Canadians. What Canadians want to know is the truth.

Much of the speech was spent attacking Liberals. I wonder if someone around the parliamentary secretary would be so kind as to pass him a copy of the motion we are debating today. I would ask him to answer this question. Just exactly what is the problem with having the Prime Minister come before committee and testify under oath? Canadians want the truth. Why should they be denied it?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I referenced Liberals in my remarks because it is a Liberal motion that we are talking about. Last week when we were talking about an NDP motion, I referenced the NDP and I pointed out some contradictions that it had and why I disagreed with that motion.

Now the Liberals do not want to be talked about with their own motion before the chamber. They do not want us talking about them. They are so embarrassed by their performance that they want to fight for the status quo and that they do not even want us to mention Liberals anymore. Is this what it has come to for the Liberal Party? The Liberals are so embarrassed of their leadership and their inability to actually have a voice on anything that matters to Canadians. They are so embarrassed by the fact that their only policy is to legalize marijuana. Now they do not want us to talk about them in the context of a motion they brought in front of the House.

If the Liberals believe in the motion, do not be surprised when we talk about it, the Liberal Party and the Liberal inconsistencies. If they did not want that, they could have brought a motion about the economy, about health care, but they are fighting the status quo and now their leader is telling senators to abstain, do not take a position at all on anything because that would be dangerous. I think Canadians understand where accountability will come from and it is from this side.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I hate to disagree with the hon. parliamentary secretary, but the Liberal leader has taken many solid positions since he became leader. Most of them are absolutely terrible. He supports the Keystone pipeline. He supported the sale to Nexen. He supports more deals with China. The only policy he has taken, with which I agree, is the one people keep vilifying him for.

I want to put this motion in context. This is about behaviour in the Prime Minister's Office. It is not about the generalized problem of the Senate. I put this for my friend, the hon. parliamentary secretary. In today's Globe and Mail, one of his former colleagues, Inky Mark, describes the Prime Minister's modus operandi. He said:

[The Prime Minister's] biggest weakness is that he doesn’t listen to anyone. He thought he knew more than all of us put together. He didn’t trust anyone. He operated through his bullies.

I ask the hon. parliamentary secretary this. How do we jive the Prime Minister's reputation for being in total control of all aspects of his operations at all times with what must have only been wilful blindness to what was going on all around him in the cover-up?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I hate to disagree with the Green Party member, but the Liberal leader supports Keystone when he is in front of oil people, but he does not necessarily support it when he is in B.C. or Ontario.

We have seen this with the Liberals before. We remember the former Liberal leader who supported the auto sector when he was in Oshawa, but when he was in British Columbia, he was not so supportive of the auto sector.

The Liberal leader supports the oil sands, but not taking it out of the ground. Anybody can support it, but if they do not support the pipelines that get it to market, what is the point to that? I am not sure the Liberal leader has figured out that the pipes we are talking about are not the ones used for smoking. They are the ones that actually deliver oil to the market.

With respect to the Prime Minister, he has been very clear. Had he known that this scheme was being hatched, he would have in no way endorsed such a scheme. Nigel Wright has accepted full and sole responsibility.

What we are asking for now is that the senators do the same. They are not, so there is a motion in front of the Senate which would give Canadians the accountability that they cannot extract from a ballot box when it comes to the senators.

We are learning now that the Liberals are going to sit on their hands and abstain from voting. When it comes to accountability, Canadians can always count on the Conservative Party to provide that accountability.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

November 5th, 2013 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, in my riding people are concerned about jobs and economic growth. They are concerned about providing for their families. They are concerned about safety in their communities.

Just yesterday the opposition focused on one issue for 23 questions straight. It turns out the Leader of the Opposition has a confirmed history for libel, so perhaps it should not be a surprise that we are talking about innuendo and out-of-context statements and half-truths.

I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary a question. Why does the opposition not want to talk about Canada's economic performance? Why does it not want to talk about the Speech from the Throne? Why does it not want to talk about the Canadian-European trade agreement? Why does the opposition avoid all of the issues that concern my constituents?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite right. There are so many very important issues facing Canadians.

We understand that the economy grew by a little over 2% annually. That is really good news. We have a new trade deal with the European Union that the Prime Minister was able to negotiate, opening up a market of 500 million people, which will be an incredible benefit to the people of Kitchener, I might add.

Canadians want to talk about other things. The Minister of Justice has said that we will come forward with more protections for victims of crime. We have infrastructure issues. We have issues with respect to the environment and natural resources that we have to get at.

That is not to say that this issue with respect to bringing accountability in the Senate is not important because it is. It is important and we are going to move forward with accountability and reforming the Senate, but there are a lot of other issues that we need to deal with.

The member for Kitchener Centre is completely right in identifying all of those other very important issues.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, as always it is an incredible honour to rise in the House as the elected member for the great region of Timmins—James Bay.

It is November 5 and I was thinking of the children's poem that is said all over England today, “Remember, remember, the fifth of November”. That is the Guy Fawkes plot where a group of rebels attempted to blow up the House of Commons. Coming from a Scottish Catholic background, our family never had much reason to celebrate the Guy Fawkes plot with all of the burnings. However, I thought of it because people will look back at this period as a time when the so-called august chamber of sober second thought was blown up under its own hubris and corruption. What poems will the children speak in future? Will they remember Guy Fawkes or will they remember Nigel Wright, Pamela Wallin, Patrick Brazeau, Mac Harb or the current Prime Minister?

I want to speak to the motion and the issues we see. Right now there is a legitimization crisis in the country toward Parliament and the Senate because of this corruption scandal. Canadians need answers. At the outset, the New Democrats would support any effort to get answers regarding this scandal. However, I have a number of questions about the Liberal motion to bring the Prime Minister to committee for a three hour period to speak. I do not think that is very well thought out because there are many people we need to hear from. If we were to set up a proper inquiry, there are a number of people we would bring to committee, such as Chris Woodcock, Benjamin Perrin, Mr. van Hemmen, Irving Gerstein and Nigel Wright.

I do not agree with the idea of the Prime Minister coming to committee for three hours. Last week he was in the House for at least three hours during question period. That is the moment when we are to confront the Prime Minister. This is the tradition of the Westminster system. There is an honour system. Much of our tradition has been undermined by the present Prime Minister. However, when the leader of a party stands up to speak, it is the honour and tradition that the Prime Minister responds to the leader of that party. Therefore, the leaders of the parties have enormous opportunities in the House.

Last week, the Liberal leader fronted the idea of the Prime Minister speaking under oath somewhere. It seemed to take the Liberals a few days to figure out where this oath-taking would take place. However, I would remind the people back home that when ministers speak in the House, it is expected that they tell the truth. They may prevaricate, deny or skirt around the issue but there is a legal obligation. If someone knowingly misrepresents the facts, that is a breach of privilege for the members of the House. The Prime Minister has been walking a tightrope because he and his staff are facing many serious allegations. Therefore, this is the forum in which it should be done.

It is the leader of the Liberal Party who should be calling out the Prime Minister if he is being called out individually and not with all of his support staff or anyone else. It is the leader of a party who should be doing that. However, I have not seen the involvement of the Liberal leader anywhere with respect to this issue.

Last week the Liberal leader had 45 opportunities to ask questions on this issue. That is the power of the leader of the third party. He asked three questions. Therefore, it is surprising that it has suddenly become a serious issue for him. He skipped town. He was in Calgary glad-handing with the oil executives, while the nation was facing one of the biggest political scandals. The week before that he skipped town to go to Washington to promote Keystone XL. These were his choices and it is his choice to make. However, he then cannot turn around and say that the Prime Minister is not willing to answer questions when the Prime Minister does stand up. We will continue to take that stand.

My hon. Liberal members might say that the NDP had more opportunity to ask questions. However, our leader has made it a policy that the House of Commons is where leaders challenge each other to find out where the breakdowns are in the story.

There are two fundamental crises happening. One is in the Senate, and one is in the House of Commons.

There probably is a reason senators have not allowed cameras in the Senate. I say to the folks back home that I have been in the Senate watching. It is a dismal exercise. It is like watching the made men and women of the Liberal and Conservative parties hitting each other with feather dusters and then going off for drinks afterwards.

We are told by my colleagues in the Liberal Party that it is the Liberal senators who are standing up for fairness.

The key senators who should be questioned are not being questioned in the Senate, because senators protect their own. The Liberal senators have been standing up day after day saying how unfair it is that people who are facing issues of breech of trust and fraud are actually getting the boot.

I do not know what universe the Liberals live in, but if the people in my riding get an overpayment on their pension or disability cheques, the government comes back at them. There is no due process or anything else. The government comes down on them. I am dealing with a man with a disabled son who almost lost his house because of an overpayment. He was not doing anything wrong. Yet day after day, the Liberal senators have been stalling in the House, in the Senate, not on the issue of getting to the bottom of the scandal but on the fundamental issue that it is simply not fair that one of their made men or women are being booted out the door. That is what the debate has been about.

If the Liberal senators were serious about dealing with this, they could use their role in the Senate for a whole manner of things, because we are not, in our lower chamber, supposed to even be able to question these august senators. As Liberal Senator Baker said, they are “above all rules”. They make their own rules. In their world, if they ask for money, ask and it shall be given. Knock and the door shall be opened. They seem to live in some kind of biblical antechamber. They believe that if they ask for the money, they should receive it and that what is unfair is that senators are being booted out for having done that.

Let us talk about who should be brought forward if we were to ask questions. Let us talk about the fraud charges against Raymond Lavigne. This is not bringing up the deep, dark past. This is recent history. The RCMP raised the issues about fraud and the fact that there were no checks and balances in the Senate. They were raised then, in the trial, when he went to jail, and nothing was done in the Senate. The senators just went on with business as usual.

Let us talk about Senator Tkachuk. There is an allegation that Senator Tkachuk gave Mike Duffy the heads-up about him ordering all the chicken wings and beer when he was two weeks in Florida, in the middle of an audit. He was on the committee, and he gave Mike Duffy the heads-up.

There is nobody on the Liberal side of the Senate asking what was going on that undermined an audit. Now they are saying that it is gross negligence. If we have allegations that senators were giving other senators a tipoff, that undermines the public trust.

One would think the senators would be asking questions of Carolyn Stewart Olsen, who is having her own problems now with the mispaying of money. She sat on that committee.

We are told that under the Nigel Wright deal, Nigel Wright would arrange the money and the senators would whitewash the audit. I would like to hear them asking in the Senate right now what senators were involved in the whitewashing of that audit, but we are not hearing anything.

The Liberal senators are standing on the principle that one of their own, a senator, even if from the other party, should never be kicked out. Senators should keep their benefits no matter what has happened.

It is a disgraced institution, and Canadians are rightly fed up with these shenanigans. They would expect someone over in that so-called upper chamber to act decently and recognize that they are living off the largesse of the Canadian people. However, we are not hearing a word of that from any of the Liberal senators at this point. They are stalling for time. They are saying that it is unfair what is happening to Mike Duffy, Pamela Wallin, and Patrick Brazeau. They are talking about their right to due process, which no other Canadian would get, because these are the people who make the rules.

This scandal is a very serious issue for Canadians, because what starts with Mike Duffy and his ineligible expenses goes into the Prime Minister's Office, where Nigel Wright apparently, according to Mike Duffy, who has the paper trail, told him that his expenses were okay, because if they went after him, there were at least four other senators in that spot. Who are those other senators? I think Canadians need to know.

What has come forward from the evidence that came out at the beginning of February, and that nobody has contradicted, is that they would write a $90,000 cheque. Initially, according to the RCMP affidavits, which the Conservatives are always telling us to study, Senator Irving Gerstein was involved in the discussions. He was willing to use $30,000 from the donor base of the Conservative Party to pay, but when he found out that it was $90,000, he refused.

What was the role of Senator Irving Gerstein, or what knowledge did he have of a deal that was potentially illegal? I am not a lawyer, but to make a secret payment to a sitting politician in a matter before the Senate is certainly something that breaches the Criminal Code. Irving Gerstein would have been aware of that.

The deal was what Nigel Wright referred to as a cash repayment scheme.They would pay for Mike Duffy's audit problems, the $90,000, and then the Senate would agree to go easy on Duffy. That is what happened. We saw an initial whitewashed audit. We saw the Prime Minister thanking Mike Duffy for showing leadership. All the things were in place until the paper trail began to come out.

On March 25, Nigel Wright transferred $90,172.24 to Mike Duffy's lawyer. We are not sure exactly how the transfer occurred and whether it went through Conservative Party lawyers, but it was transferred. Mike Duffy said that Nigel Wright said do not worry. He would write the cheque and would let lawyers handle the details. Duffy should just follow the plan, and they would keep Carolyn Stewart Olsen and David Tkachuk at bay.

Who were those lawyers? There has to be a paper trail.

Less than two weeks after this transfer of money, which may have been highly illegal, Arthur Hamilton, the senior lawyer for the Conservative Party, sent a cheque for $13,560 to Mike Duffy's lawyer, Elizabeth Payne. The House of Commons, through all the questions, was not told about this by the Prime Minister. Who authorized the senior Conservative Party lawyer to write this cheque if it was not Senator Irving Gerstein or someone up higher?

On May 15, this potentially illegal hush-money payoff became public. On May 16, the Prime Minister said that Nigel Wright had his full confidence. The Prime Minister knew on May 16. If the Prime Minister had no idea before, it seems rather bizarre that everyone around the Prime Minister knew.

If, on May 16, the Prime Minister knew that a potentially illegal cheque had been written by his staff in a cover-up to whitewash an audit that may have been looking at issues of breach of trust or fraud, the Prime Minister's response was certainly odd when he said that he had full confidence.

On May 17, the Prime Minister's Office said that Wright was staying on.

On May 19, the extent of the political damage was becoming very clear, and the Prime Minister said, “It is with great regret that I have accepted the resignation of Nigel Wright as my Chief of Staff”.

Up to that point, we remember the questions in the House of Commons about whether the RCMP investigators were to be involved. They were saying to leave it to the ethics officer. It was actually the New Democrats that wrote a letter asking the RCMP to investigate, because we were looking at a potential crime.

The Prime Minister said in May and June that if there were any documents relating to this issue, they would be more than willing to co-operate, but he did not say that he would release any. In fact, we were told by the present Minister of Foreign Affairs that no documents existed. We know that this is simply not true.

What is surprising from the evidence that has been brought forward by Nigel Wright is that he has in his possession a very large binder of evidence regarding Mike Duffy's claims: his calendar, his travel, and all manner of issues. This was not given over to the audit, and it was not given over to the RCMP until months after the RCMP investigation began.

I mention this because if, on May 19, Nigel Wright walked out of his office, why would the Prime Minister's staff allow him to walk out with such a trove of evidence about a potential crime? It just beggars belief that Nigel Wright was allowed to walk with all this evidence. Yet he was.

When we asked the Prime Minister a really simple and straightforward question—who knew in the Prime Minister's Office?—he said again and again that Nigel Wright was the sole actor. We asked about Benjamin Perrin's role. We were not given straightforward answers. We now know that Chris Woodcock, in the Prime Minister's Office, Benjamin Perrin, and David van Hemmen were involved. We need to know to what degree.

I refer the House to the latest article on the RCMP statements. They are now looking for the paper trail regarding new allegations that have emerged that this RBC mortgage loan was a front set up by the Prime Minister's Office and that they told Mike Duffy to go along.

The allegation Mike Duffy made, and we have not seen the Prime Minister stand up in the House and say that Mike Duffy is a liar, is that the Prime Minister's staff coached him to lie to the Canadian people about this deal and the fake RBC loan. The Prime Minister continues to repeat that line in the House. His Parliamentary Secretary continues to repeat that line.

At no point have we heard the Prime Minister say that he was told by his staff that Mike Duffy had an RBC loan. What the heck was going on? The Prime Minister seems to have real disinterest in finding out within his office if people were playing a game.

In fact, we now know that there was a senator who phoned Mike Duffy and threatened him, saying that he had better go along and do what the Prime Minister said. Who was that person? We have not heard the Prime Minister answer that.

I would like to focus on the RBC loan, because it is a very important issue. What we are seeing now from Sergeant Biage Carrese of the RCMP National Division, in a November 1 letter, is that:

Emails from the PMO specifically relating to a script for Senator Duffy to follow in advance of obtaining funds from a RBC loan to repay the Receiver General

may be material to the RCMP's investigation.

Duffy has said:

On Feb. 21, after all of the threats and intimidation, I reluctantly agreed to go along with this dirty scheme.

I certainly do not think that too many Canadians believe that Mike Duffy is the most trustworthy person. However, the difference between Mike Duffy and the Prime Minister at this point is that Mike Duffy is providing us with a paper trail. We are getting nothing from the Prime Minister. It is quite a shocking set of circumstances when someone who has abused the public trust as much as Mike Duffy is being given more credit than the Prime Minister.

We are talking about the RCMP actually investigating not just the issue of whether a potentially illegal payout was made, which was meant to cover up the breach of trust and potential fraud against the taxpayers, but that it was the Prime Minister's Office that set up the fake story about the RBC and coached Mike Duffy. If he did not go along, they would go public with the fact that he was not even legitimately allowed to sit in the Senate.

What kind of contempt for the Canadian people is that? Even in a system as dodgy as the Senate, they were all willing to cover up the fact that Mike Duffy was not even eligible to sit in the Senate. He had to go along. It was being orchestrated. Who was it? Was it Ray Novak? Was it Chris Woodcock? Was it Benjamin Perrin? Who was the one in the Prime Minister's Office coaching Mike Duffy through this scheme?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Oak Ridges—Markham Ontario

Conservative

Paul Calandra ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments. I think it comes as no surprise that I would disagree with a number of things he said. Of course, that is why we are here. It is to express our opinions and ask those questions.

We have actually been spending a lot more time together than I think the hon. member ever hoped he would be spending with me, but so be it.

I wonder if he would agree on one thing, though, which is that what we have before us with this motion from the Liberals is really an embarrassingly shallow attempt by the Liberals to deflect the fact that they are fighting so hard to maintain the status quo in the Senate.

Regardless of anything, at least most of us would agree, on this side and on the official opposition side, that there has to be accountability in the Senate.

I wonder if he would agree that this is just an embarrassingly shallow attempt by the Liberals to deflect from the fact that they are fighting so hard to maintain the status quo. What are his thoughts on recent reports we have heard that the Liberal leader is actually instructing his senators to abstain from voting on the three motions we have before us?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question, and yes, we are going to be spending a lot of time together. We do not seem to agree on very much, but we are maintaining a professional relationship because we are all here to represent the Canadian people. We have a serious issue before us in the House of Commons, so I will continue to push him and his government very hard.

In terms of the motion, I certainly do not think it has been thought through very well. Again, any effort to shed light on this we are willing to support, but this is the avenue.

In terms of what is going on in the Senate, I find it absolutely appalling that we have seen day after day Liberal senators not interested in getting to the bottom of the roles that senators have been playing in this issue. They have been completely walking around the fact that many senators are being named in police documents as being involved in a potentially illegal act. If the Liberal senators were serious about this, they would be using the upper chamber to do that, but they are not. They are protecting the made men and women who sit in the Senate for their perks; that is what it is.

At the end of the day, I think it would be an abomination to the Canadian people for all those senators who waxed on and on about the importance of the upper chamber and why it is so important to Canadians to sit on their hands. They better stand up and vote.

Certainly, if television cameras were in there, I bet the Canadian people would be down there tomorrow giving them all the heave ho.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Speaker, the member for Timmins—James Bay was quite vocal in his criticism that the motion does not go far enough. I am reminded of the saying that “perfection is the enemy of the good”.

I have only been in this chamber a short time, but it is my understanding that only the House of Commons can order a member to appear before the committee, and only the House can order the Prime Minister to appear.

There is absolutely nothing in the motion that would prevent the committee from inviting and ordering others to appear, as the hon. member has suggested. The point of our motion is to ensure that one of the people who appears before the committee is the Prime Minister, and only the House can do that.

Could I have the member's response to that please?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want my hon. colleague to understand that we are certainly interested in getting to the bottom of what has happened and we will support efforts. However, the problem I guess is a question of perception.

When one calls out a prime minister, the person who calls out the prime minister is the leader of a party. It is not my position as the critic to call out the prime minister. I will call out my colleague who is the parliamentary secretary.

The leader of the Liberal Party has the opportunity to show leadership at this moment. He has not been here. He has not been asking the questions. We have been in the House for the last number of weeks and he simply has not shown up. If one is only going to ask three questions out of a possible 45 on this, it is hard to convince Canadians that one takes it all that seriously.

Yes, we are more than willing to study this at the ethics committee, but we think that the main issue is for the Prime Minister to answer the questions from the two leaders in the House. Our work in committee I think is with all the other players. That is who we should be bringing to committee, but we are certainly more than willing to work with our colleagues on trying to find an appropriate solution.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, there is a question that bothers me that we did not get an answer to.

The Prime Minister is the person who put Mike Duffy there. He knew Mike Duffy stayed in Ottawa for many years and had his little chalet in P.E.I. However, the Prime Minister said that he wanted the province to tell him who it wanted in the Senate. Did he ever get that from P.E.I.?

If he believes so much that the Senate should work well, how did the Prime Minister not know that Mike Duffy's primary task was not to be in the Senate to carry out sober second thought, to look after the region of P.E.I. or to look after the minority, but to do fundraising for the Conservative Party? Here again, the Prime Minister did not know about that.

For all those years, Mike Duffy and Wallin were going around because they were the stars at CTV and in Toronto and on television. They were used by the Prime Minister for fundraising for the Conservative Party.

Does the member agree with me?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for returning us to the fundamental problem, which is the cynicism of a Prime Minister who chose people who were not even eligible to sit in the Senate. I was reading an article about Pamela Wallin. She said she no longer lives in Saskatchewan but she has her Christmas there. Well, when I go visit my relatives at Christmas it does not make me their legal representative.

They knew they were not eligible to sit in the Senate. They breached the Constitution. No one in the Senate even bothered to say anything because how many of them actually live where they are supposed to represent? How many times do these people stand up and speak for their regions? Some of them never speak for them. In the case of Duffy and Wallin, they were out there doing the heavy fundraising, just as many of the Liberal senators do. They were doing the organizing of the party. That is an abuse of public trust. We need to clip the wings of those senators and stop that rip-off of the taxpayers.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on this because a lot of Canadians do not realize just what the role of many of our senators is. We see Mac Harb, one of the chief fundraisers for the Liberal Party, now under investigation by the RCMP. We saw Senator Gerstein, who was the last speaker at the Conservative convention in Calgary, say at the beginning of his speech that he is a self-admitted bagman and proud to say he is a bagman. He did not mention the part where he is also paid by the Canadian taxpayer to run around as a bagman for the Conservative Party; on and on it goes.

I do not know how many of my Conservative colleagues across the way had fundraisers with Mr. Duffy or Madam Wallin, or whether the money they spent on their campaigns was garnered that way. That is what the Senate has been for so long.

The curious thing for me is, and I will put this question to my colleague, we are dealing with the Liberal motion here today, asking the Prime Minister to testify under oath. Of course, testifying under oath would be a relief from the general comments we get from the Prime Minister day after day. However, just last week, the Liberals voted against the New Democrat motion to have no more partisan activity for senators.

They should stop using the taxpayer to fly them around the country to fundraise for the Conservative and Liberal parties of Canada. If they want to go fundraise, they should do it the way we do it. We pay our own way. I do not understand why Conservative senators feel that the Canadian taxpayers should be buying the flights and the limos that truck them around the country to raise money for partisan activities.

If the Liberals were serious about cleaning up the mess in the Senate at all and really meant what they were saying here, why would they vote against a motion that says no more partisan activities will be accepted as legal expenses for senators, Conservative and Liberal alike?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals built the corrupt system that is the Senate. It is their machine. It is where they put their party men and their bagmen for years. They are not even asking right now to go after the Senate and clean it up. They are only asking to protect perks. That is the fundamental problem. If we do not abolish the Senate, if we stripped it of its partisan rule, then Canadians might have some faith in it. However, when they see people who flip pancakes and do fundraisers for the party getting appointed as made men and women for life, no wonder Canadians are cynical and fed up. They look to them to show some leadership and they just see people looking after their own and protecting their time at the trough.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to participate in the debate and discussion around this issue today.

What we are looking for are some answers. We are trying to get the Prime Minister to come before our committee so we can get some answers as to what went wrong and when he knew this was ongoing, so we can get to the bottom of it. One thing I have learned in politics is that the thing that we hold most dear is trust, and once it is lost it is gone forever. We work very hard to gain the trust of our constituents. We work very hard to gain the trust of Canadians.

However, the moment we have lost that trust, it is gone and it is hard to get it back.

We are trying to get to the bottom of this because Canadians have lost their trust in the current Prime Minister and he should feel compelled to want to regain that trust. Everywhere I have gone over the last few weeks and over this past summer, every barbecue, every function I attended, people would come up to me and talk about this. Canadians are engaged. They want to know what went on. They want to get to the bottom of it.

It is important that we in this chamber find out what happened and put this behind us, so that we can move on to some of the more important issues. I am sure the government has a lot of important issues that it would like to put forward. However, this needs to be put to bed first. That is why the motion is on the table. The problem is that there have been a lot of contradictory statements made in here, in the media, in the Senate, and by the RCMP, as well. There is a lot to get to the bottom of.

First, let us review the timeline on this particular case. I will focus on one small aspect of the timeline.

This started last November. November 22 is when the Senate internal economy committee had the task of reviewing these senators' expenses. This was first brought out a year ago. Then, through December, it was reported that Senator Duffy had made claims on his living expenses. Then it continued into January 2013, when the auditing firm of Deloitte was hired. Then it carried into February, when the Senate said anyone should repay the money and the Prime Minister reported to his caucus that if anyone had received any of this money, it was time to repay it.

Therefore, it had been burning for almost three or four months.

Then it continued throughout February with the different claims on residency of senators and the amount owing by Mr. Duffy got to the $90,000 mark in March of 2013. Then it carried on through April, as well, when there was the whitewashing of reports and the audits were completed. Then it all came to a head in May.

This is the timeframe I would like to discuss today. What exactly happened during those five days in May when the Prime Minister was thrust into this discussion? That is the most important timeframe in all of this discussion, trying to get to the bottom of how the Prime Minister handled this during those five days in May.

Despite this having gone on for almost six to eight months, let us give the Prime Minister the benefit of the doubt, that prior to May 14, he knew nothing about the scheme of how Senator Duffy repaid his expenses. Let us give him the benefit of the doubt for the purposes of this discussion today and let us focus on those five days in May when the Prime Minister lost a lot of credibility and a lot of trust.

It started on May 14, at 10:01 p.m., when the report was filed that Senator Mike Duffy and Nigel Wright had an arrangement to repay the $90,000.

I have been a political staffer. We all know that there are teams of communications officials in the Prime Minister's office who watch every single news cast, read every single paper and monitor this stuff 24/7. This is when this story really started, on May 14. At 10:01 p.m., this report broke. I can say that right then the communications teams in the Prime Minister's Office went into high gear. Everybody was alerted that this story had come out and had been put solely on the chief of staff of the Prime Minister on May 14.

I will give the Prime Minister the benefit of the doubt that he was home on Sussex Drive in bed, not paying attention to this, spending time with his family, and this was not brought to his attention on that evening.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

John Baird

Would you want to call him at 11 o'clock at night?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

I wouldn't want to call him at 11 o'clock at night. As a staffer, I would not have made that phone call at 11 o'clock at night, and that is fair. However, the real story begins the next morning on how this was handled when the Prime Minister woke up and found out what Nigel Wright had done.

This is where this story gets interesting. Obviously, on the morning of May 15 all hands were on deck in the Prime Minister's Office, all the suspects who were involved with this: Nigel Wright, Ray Novak, Benjamin Perrin, Chris Woodcock and David van Hemmen. I believe the Prime Minister, too, was involved with this important discussion, because on May 28 in a question in the House of Commons, the Prime Minister stated:

On Wednesday, May 15, I was told about it. At that very moment, I demanded that my office ensure that the public was informed, and it was informed appropriately.

He demanded his office inform the public on May 15. I think he also demanded in that office that morning, of all his staffers, who else knew about this: “Who in this office knew about this transaction? I need to get to the bottom of this”. Obviously, Nigel Wright spoke up and, instead of firing Nigel right there on the spot for betraying the Prime Minister's confidence, he kept him around for another five days. I will come back to that part of the story.

At that critical moment, when the Prime Minister asked who else in the office knew about it, I am sure that these three individuals either said something then to the Prime Minister that they knew something about it or they did not. Either way, they are were part of the cover-up on this whole issue and they all should have been shown the door immediately. Not one of these individuals, one being the Prime Minister's own lawyer in his office, raised his hand and said, “We have a little problem here. I don't think Nigel should have done this”. He did not say anything.

Chris Woodcock, director of issues management for the PMO, was in high gear on May 15, because when this all broke in the morning of May 15, there were emails in which these guys went into full damage control. There is an email dated May 15 in which the secret deal to help Mike Duffy was reported. Woodcock asked Duffy, “Can you confirm whether you advised the Senate ethics officer of any loans/gifts involved in the March 25th repayment?” Woodcock continued to say, “Trying to cover off all the angles”. That is very important. He is trying to cover all the angles.

Obviously, on May 15, Woodcock was part of this and they were trying to cover all the angles. They were trying to cover all the damage control on this particular file. He knew what had gone on. He asked whether Mike Duffy had notified the Senate ethics officer about this $90,000 gift. It was high gear. The Prime Minister, at that particular time, should have shown them all the door. He should have taken charge of the issue and said he knew nothing about this and what they did was wrong. No, that did not happen.

Then we move to May 16, the next day. This had been brewing for a day now, and the Prime Minister's Office was trying to figure out how to get to the bottom of this and how to control this situation.

Then the Prime Minister's communications director, Mr. Andrew MacDougall, who had no knowledge of what had gone on, whose name is not mentioned in any court documents, was doing his job. He came out and made this statement on May 16, the next day—May 14, 15 and now 16:

The Prime Minister has full confidence in Mr. Wright and Mr. Wright is staying on.

The Prime Minister did not get to the bottom of it. He did not ask if it had actually happened. Mr. Wright had the full confidence of the Prime Minister the very next day.

What the Prime Minister's office and Conservatives were trying to do was to see if they could ride out the storm. They wanted to see if they could get through the storm. They did not want to fire anybody or throw anybody under the bus.

Then the story continued to percolate through May 17 and 18. Duffy is kicked out of caucus. Wallin is moved to the side.

Then a number of Conservatives came out to defend Nigel Wright, and they continue to do it to this day. This past weekend the MP for Edmonton—Leduc came out and defended Nigel Wright as an honourable fellow.

The Minister of Employment and Social Development tweeted on May 19:

Very sorry about Nigel Wright's resignation. Brilliant, decent man who made huge sacrifices to go into public service. We need more like him.

This was upon hearing about the resignation of Nigel Wright. It was later that we learned he was dismissed or resigned, a story that keeps changing.

The Minister of Industry came out and said:

Nigel Wright is a great Canadian. Canada is stronger because of his service as Chief of Staff to our Prime Minister.

Then the Minister of State (Democratic Reform) came out and said:

Saddened to hear of Nigel Wright's departure. He is an honourable man, and great Canadian.

Then another MP came out, the member for Calgary Centre, saying that she really felt for Nigel Wright; it was right thing to do.

No, it was not the right thing to do. The right thing would have been, when they first heard about it, to have fired his arse out the door. That would have been the right thing to do, but the Conservatives tried to get through this scandal in five days, trying to see if it would go away.

That is the essence of why we need to get the Prime Minister to come and testify before the ethics committee. It is because of this story. That was May 19.

Then on May 24, the Prime Minister admitted that perhaps he should have accepted the resignation sooner. Well, he should have fired him immediately. If he had no knowledge of what had gone on, and he had not gone along with it, the Prime Minister should have fired him immediately. If he did not fire him, it would lead people to believe that he knew more than he is letting on.

That is where we are coming down to trust. There is a saying out there, “....what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive”.

It is so true. It can happen in all aspects of politics, when the story starts changing, if one is telling one story to some people and another story to other people, that is the problem. It is the tangled web this Prime Minister weaved for himself. He needs to get out from underneath it. He needs to come clean. He needs to fess up.

One thing that is very honourable in this place is that we sometimes say “I am sorry. I did something wrong”. People should not be punished for saying those things.

That is why this motion is here. I would welcome it before the ethics committee. It is a place for us to get to the bottom of this and make sure trust is regained in our government, trust is regained in parliamentarians.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Kenora Ontario

Conservative

Greg Rickford ConservativeMinister of State (Science and Technology

Mr. Speaker, the member's intervention today would have more meaning if he had more support. I do not know if CPAC is available in prison or not; maybe the senator there is having an opportunity to watch it. However, the question is quite simple. Does the member, his caucus and their colleagues in the other place support the kinds of Senate reform that we have been championing now for the past seven years?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, that party used to be the champion of Senate reform a long time ago, and it obviously did nothing with it because the Prime Minister appointed these senators, 59 of them, the most senators ever appointed by a prime minister.

That is not the issue here today. The issue is how the Prime Minister has handled this fiasco and what happened during his leadership as Prime Minister during this fiasco. That is the motion here today. If the member wants to talk about Senate reform, we will talk about that when the Supreme Court brings down the ruling on how to move forward. Do not confuse the two issues here today. This is about the Prime Minister's handling of this debacle.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, since the Liberals moved this motion, does that mean that they regret their decision to vote against the motion moved by the NDP last week to restrict the partisan activities and travel of senators?

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, I do not see how the two motions are relative. This motion is about the Prime Minister's Office, so the two are not related.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague if he would agree that the key issues here are the ability of the Prime Minister to say exactly the truth about what happened and why he is dodging all questions about this issue.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, this is an opportunity for the Prime Minister to come clean and get the facts of the story on the record in a manner that does not cause confusion. When the Prime Minister answers a lot of questions, he says one thing, says something else, causes confusion. That is manipulating the situation. This is an opportunity for the Prime Minister to come clean.

I come back to what I said about regaining the trust of Canadians. Once a politician has lost trust, he or she is done. The Prime Minister needs to come clean. We need to get to the bottom of this and we need to know all the facts. The Prime Minister is the only person who can clear the air and put this to bed.

Opposition Motion—Instruction to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and EthicsBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my friend across the way on a couple of points. This is an opportunity for the Prime Minister. I was at the Calgary convention observing on behalf of New Democrats, and I thought there was an opportunity for the Prime Minister to come clean in the safest room he is going to have between now and the next election, I would offer, and he chose not to. He just said the same things he says here week after week, but in an angrier, louder tone. That was his choice.

My friend talked about trust. It must be concerning to my Conservative friends, particularly the Prime Minister. They have had many failed strategies on this, but the strategy was to say that no one is going to believe Mike Duffy, so let us put up the Prime Minister's reputation against Mike Duffy's on this story and clearly Canadians will fall on the Prime Minister's side. Yet it must be so unnerving for Conservatives to see polling and reaction of Canadians saying they trust neither of them very much. They seem to trust Mike Duffy a little bit more. That hurts. That has to sting when a Prime Minister has built his whole persona around credibility and trust.

To my Liberal friend across the way, I am confused. We have asked questions about trying to make the Senate less partisan and not allow it to use taxpayer money to raise funds for the parties. That is the issue, and we have talked about getting rid of the Senate in the first place. The Prime Minister's shortcuts around democracy, breaking his promise 59 times to Canadians that he would not appoint senators, is part of this issue. This is the root of it. We cannot simply clip at the branches and say we have fixed the Senate because we got rid of Mike Duffy, Pam Wallin and Patrick Brazeau. That is not the case. We have to go for the root and branch. We have to absolutely take out the heart of this thing.

The only answer the Liberals have for Canadians right now, unfortunately, the only problem they see with the Senate is that they have to appoint more Liberal senators; that will fix things. That is not true.

In looking at the news today, I see Mac Harb, one of the Liberals' favourites, who did what with the privileges he had as a senator? Clearly, the position that the Liberal leader has taken consistently is that somehow tweaking around the edges and not having to actually reform or abolish the Senate—we believe in abolishment—is going to be enough and that this nightmare will not just return again once the spotlight turns down a bit.

It is not tenable. It is not a tenable argument. It is not logical. It does not make any sense. If Liberals believe in this motion that the Prime Minister has to come clean on all these things and that there are serious fundamental flaws in the Senate, then why not agree when we propose motions to get at those same fundamental flaws in the Senate? Why have it one way and then try to have it another?