Debates of Nov. 6th, 2013

Ethics

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the NDP is once again trying to pin the blame on one person for someone else's actions.

The facts here are absolutely clear. Mr. Wright has been very clear on all of these matters. He has taken full responsibility for his actions and he is being held accountable, as we expect in this party. We hold people personally accountable for their actions.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, just to be perfectly clear, this is about a cover-up in the Prime Minister's Office. This is government business. This is the public's business.

Did Senator Gerstein approve the plan to use party money to repay Duffy's illegal expenses when he thought that the cost was just $32,000? Is it a question of principle or a question of price?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I will remind the member, once again, that as soon as I became aware of these facts we made those facts available to the public.

We all know the party did not pay Mr. Duffy's inappropriate expenses. He was supposed to pay those himself. Indeed, he claimed he had paid those himself. He had not. Obviously, for that reason he is no longer a member of our caucus and has been further sanctioned by the Senate, as is appropriate.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, tonight this House will vote on a motion that will compel everyone involved in the PMO ethics scandal, including the Prime Minister, to testify under oath. I am sure every single Conservative MP would agree with their former colleague from Edmonton—St. Albert that their constituents want answers.

Will the Prime Minister allow a free vote so that Conservative MPs can express the will of their constituents tonight?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party had its chance in the Senate last night to demonstrate some kind of accountability. Of course what the Liberal senators did was exactly what we would expect, as they have all through this defended the rights of senators to do whatever they want to do, whether they are within the rules or not.

Once again, the Liberal Party on that side has exhibited the culture we have come to know from that party, which is the culture of one being entitled to his or her entitlements. On this side, we expect people to follow the rules.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have heard time and time again across this country that Canadians are disappointed, that the strong voices elected from their communities have turned into the Prime Minister's voice in their communities.

In the vote tonight, will the Prime Minister allow his MPs to speak up for their constituents or will they participate in this cover-up?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the leader of the Liberal Party were indeed listening to Canadians, he would know that Canadians did expect those senators who broke or systematically disregarded expense rules to be removed from the public payroll. In fact, the Liberal Party did not do that, with one exception. The Liberal senators would have allowed the senators to continue without any sanction whatsoever.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Conservative senators felt otherwise and have imposed that sanction.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Senator Gerstein was aware of the Duffy affair and he still has his job. The people in the Prime Minister's Office involved in this scheme were simply shuffled off.

Canadians across the country want their MPs to express the will of their constituents, who want to know more.

For the third time, will the Prime Minister allow his MPs to have a free vote on this motion this evening in order to get to the bottom of this and reassure their constituents that they are listening to them?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the will of Canadians is crystal clear. They want the senators who claimed inappropriate expenses to no longer be on the public payroll.

The Liberal Party voted to keep those senators in office. Fortunately, the vast majority of Conservative senators voted to impose serious sanctions on those senators.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, Nigel Wright has told the police that Irving Gerstein approved the original plan to pay back Mike Duffy's illegal expenses using party money. Gerstein told the Conservative convention this weekend that he dismissed the idea out of hand. Both cannot be true.

Did Senator Gerstein lie to Conservative Party members?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, once again, the decision to repay Mr. Duffy's inappropriate expenses was Mr. Wright's decision. That is a decision he took himself and that he has taken responsibility for. Obviously, his actions and those of Mr. Duffy were not accurately communicated to me or to the Canadian people. That is where the responsibility lies. That is where it does lie, and they are being held accountable.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Actually, Mr. Speaker, the word “lie” does apply, but one of those two versions has to be a lie. Mr. Gerstein cannot be telling the truth, and Nigel Wright. The question was, did Gerstein approve the plan, yes or no, and as usual the Prime Minister refuses to answer.

Let us talk about legal expenses. Of the legal expenses the party did cover for Mike Duffy, the Prime Minister 's office said, “The party was assured the invoice was for valid legal fees related to the audit process”.

What legal work was done relating to the audit process?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Of course, Mr. Speaker, that is a matter of party business, not government business.

The facts have been made very clear on that. Political parties do provide legal support to their members of Parliament, of both Houses, from time to time.

The leader of the NDP should be no stranger to this. He not only has claimed legal expenses from his party, he even succeeded in getting his party to pay court damages against him for a court case, when he lost. I know of no parallel to that in our party.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, did the Conservative Party cover the legal fees of the other senators who are subject to the very same audit?

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Again, the question is on the activities of a party. The question includes the phrase “did the Conservative Party”. It is not part of the Prime Minister's responsibilities as Prime Minister.

I see the right hon. Prime Minister rising to answer the question. Nonetheless, I hope all members will keep in mind that questions have to relate to the government's responsibilities.

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as you well know, the decision to provide legal assistance to MPs and senators is made by the political parties. As far as spending taxpayers' money is concerned, that is up to the boards of internal economy of both houses. It is not up to the government.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the question was, why one and not the other? Let us look at another example.

The Prime Minister said it is clearly inappropriate to try to collect travel expenses when one is living at a resident he or she has not had for many, many years. Carolyn Stewart Olsen admits she charged her expenses to taxpayers for a home she lived in for decades before becoming a senator.

Why was it appropriate in her case?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Senate has been very clear; it is looking at the expenditures of all senators. The Leader of the Opposition once again makes broad-brush allegations against all kinds of employees and senators.

I have no information that would corroborate what he said, but obviously we will see what the final findings of the audit of the Senate will be.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, has anyone from the Prime Minister's office discussed the investigation of Rod Zimmer's expenses with Conservatives in the Senate?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of what that discussion would be. I understand this particular member is no longer a member of the Senate.

Although this is Senate business, it is my understanding that the Senate is examining, during this Parliament, the expenditures of all senators, past and present.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, who in the Prime Minister's Office prepares senators for media interviews?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, from time to time the Prime Minister's Office provides advice to members and senators about talking to the media. However, members and senators are constitutionally responsible for their actions and their words.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, who practises answering questions with the senators from time to time?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am starting to really have trouble figuring out what any of this has to do with government business.

As I just said, if anybody breaks rules, they are held accountable. We do not accept that in this party. We hold people accountable when they take actions that they should not have taken.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, taxpayers pay for it; it is in the Prime Minister's Office. But what does that have to do with the government?

If it is true that the Prime Minister lost confidence in Nigel Wright on May 15, why did his office give Nigel Wright a vote of confidence on behalf of the Prime Minister two days later, on May 17? This just does not add up.