Debates of Dec. 5th, 2013

Ethics

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Mr. Speaker, according to sworn police documents, the Prime Minister's Office conspired with Senator Gerstein to mess with Deloitte's audit of Mike Duffy. Nigel Wright asked Gerstein personally to intervene. Another PMO staffer, Patrick Rogers, pressed Gerstein to get Deloitte “locked in”, and Gerstein tried. Through senior partner Mike Runia, he tried to breach Deloitte's ethical walls, contrary to the most sacred principles of the auditing profession, so why is Gerstein still the Prime Minister's hand-picked chair of the Senate banking committee?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Senate heard from the three auditors in question. Those three auditors confirmed the integrity of the audit that was completed on behalf of the Senate. That was the basis on which the Senate fought to ensure that those three senators were removed from the Senate without pay.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Mr. Speaker, Gerstein's scheme with Runia to mess with an audit was not an isolated transgression. According to sworn police evidence, Gerstein also agreed to pay Duffy with Conservative Party money as long as it was only $30,000. That would be against the law, but Gerstein's concern was not about principles, just the price.

Yesterday, in a blatant conflict of interest, he himself ruled on a conflict complaint about his own conduct. If Gerstein cannot tell right from wrong, why does he still have the Prime Minister's full confidence?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as the documents quite clearly outline, the RCMP is looking into the actions of Senator Duffy and the actions of Nigel Wright.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP's sworn statements clearly show that the Prime Minister's staff received privileged information from Senator Gerstein about the audit of Mr. Duffy.

However, the Deloitte auditor could not form a conclusion because Mr. Duffy was following orders from the Prime Minister's Office and refused to co-operate.

When will the government stop interfering with the process and order Senator Gerstein and former PMO staffers to testify under oath?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and for Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as I just said, the three auditors appeared before a Senate committee, and they were very clear in the fact that this audit had been done with complete confidentiality and that the Senate could have confidence in the report that it used as the basis to remove these three senators from the Senate without pay.

The RCMP report that he references quite clearly identifies that the Prime Minister also advised his office to work with the RCMP to provide as much information as the RCMP required. The report does go on further to say that the Prime Minister had no knowledge that this was being undertaken. As the Prime Minister has said, had he known, of course he would have put a stop to it right away.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I asked the Prime Minister whether his office broke the law by deleting emails that should have been saved. Today, his office is blaming Benjamin Perrin.

Does the Prime Minister realize that he is admitting that the law was in fact broken?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, it is the responsibility of employees to follow the rules on records retention. Records are retained by the bureaucracy. When the bureaucracy realized that it had this information, it made this information available to the RCMP.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, “The bureaucracy made me do it” was yesterday's answer. Today's answer from his office is “It's Benjamin Perrin's fault.” Why does the Prime Minister's story keep changing?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I will say once again what I said yesterday. There are rules in terms of retention of records. Retained records are kept by the bureaucracy. As soon as the bureaucracy realized it had information that was relevant to the investigation, it immediately made that information known and turned it over to the RCMP.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, is everyone in the Prime Minister's Office to blame except the Prime Minister himself?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary. As the RCMP said in its recent court filings, the Prime Minister's Office has not only provided full assistance and co-operation but has also provided all and any documentation that the RCMP has required.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, let us talk about the RCMP's ability to do its job without interference.

The Privy Council Office warned lawyers representing the Prime Minister's staff that their emails had been handed over to the RCMP. Why did the Privy Council Office—I remind the Prime Minister that he is in charge of that office—which reports directly to the Prime Minister, warn potential suspects that their emails were under investigation by the RCMP?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Once again, Mr. Speaker, I think the RCMP itself has been extremely clear on this matter. All and any information that has been requested from our office has been given to the RCMP, and the RCMP has praised that, and that is what we will continue to do.

What is unacceptable here is the event that took place, the payment that was not properly disclosed. It was misrepresented, and for that reason we have taken action and the two individuals in question are under investigation.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP does not warn people that there is an investigation going on, but the Prime Minister does, especially when they are people who worked for him.

On May 28, the Prime Minister said that “there is no legal agreement” between Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright.

Why then is there an email exchange between Mike Duffy's lawyer and the Prime Minister's lawyer, negotiating a very clear and specific legal agreement?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, let me correct the misinformation that was contained in the preamble to that question. The Leader of the Opposition has asserted that there are members of the Prime Minister's Office who are under investigation. That is, of course, not what the RCMP has said.

The RCMP has made very clear there are two individuals under investigation. They are Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright. These are the individuals against whom we have taken appropriate sanction, and we will continue to co-operate with the RCMP.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, did the Prime Minister know about the original plan to pay off Mike Duffy's expenses using money from the Conservative Party, yes or no?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said repeatedly, it was always conveyed to me that Mr. Duffy would repay his own expenses. Not only is that what I was told; Mr. Duffy himself said publicly that he had done that. The fact of the matter, of course, is that was not true. Mr. Duffy had received money from somebody else who had effectively done that for him, and that was not properly disclosed and was misrepresented. For that reason, we have taken the appropriate actions.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's spokesman has given a clear answer to that question. It is just different.

Why is the Prime Minister afraid to give a straight answer? Why is his spokesman allowed to give straight answers? Is it because his spokesman is allowed to lie and the Prime Minister is not?

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I do not know if those types of accusations are helpful to the debate.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order, please. I would ask members to avoid trying to insinuate or to make implications either about sitting parliamentarians or about using the protection of this place with regard to a private individual who does not have the ability to defend himself or herself. But I will allow the hon. Leader of the Opposition to pose a supplemental.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, did the Prime Minister know about the original plan to have the Conservative Party pay Mike Duffy's expenses, yes or no?

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, of course I have answered that question on many occasions. It was always conveyed to me that it was Mr. Duffy who was going to pay Mr. Duffy's expenses, not the Conservative Party, not Nigel Wright, not anybody else.

We have been crystal clear on that. The Leader of the Opposition knows what the answer is to that question. He knows what the truth is. It is he who is determined to ignore the truth.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, did the Prime Minister know that Irving Gerstein intended to interfere in Deloitte's work or not?