Debates of April 30th, 2013

Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, to go back to the Somalia issue, I do not think anybody covered themselves with any glory out of that, not the military, and there is an argument to be made that it was not well handled. That was the point.

As for the Airborne Regiment, there was a lot of commentary about whether this was in fact a rogue unit. I do not know whether it was or it was not; all I know is that there was a lot of comment about it.

My point is that the government has now legislatively inserted itself into the process so that it can dictate where the police will go and where they will not go. That is, in and of itself, quite regrettable, and in and of itself makes it worth opposing the bill.

On the member's final point with respect to the comments of the Provost Marshal, I am sure that the Provost Marshal would appreciate knowing the terms and conditions on which any VCDS, CDS, deputy minister or minister would intervene in his or her investigation. I dare say that the Provost Marshal would much prefer the status quo, which is the protocol that there is no interference, which is the same protection that every police chief enjoys in this country.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to say that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord.

I am honoured to rise in the House on behalf of my constituents in LaSalle—Émard to talk about Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, at third reading.

I would first like to talk about my riding of LaSalle—Émard. This past weekend, I had the opportunity to participate in an activity organized by the ladies auxiliary of the LaSalle Royal Canadian Legion. These volunteers hosted this activity at the legion for the veterans they visit at Ste. Anne's Hospital.

These women are volunteers. Some of them have been volunteering for over 40 years, while others have been volunteering for 25 or 15 years. They provide a very valuable service to the veterans who served Canada during the world wars and other conflicts in which Canada participated.

I always find it very worthwhile to attend events such as this. It gives me the opportunity to meet with these men and women and better understand what they did for us and what their lives were like when they were members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

In Canada, we are lucky to live in a country that is peaceful, safe and prosperous compared to other places in the world.

I will speak about veterans, but also about current members of the armed forces who do more than we know to serve our country, both here and abroad.

I would also like to say that, in my family, one of my great uncles served in the Second World War. One of my uncles was in the army, and I have a cousin who is currently a member of the armed forces. I do not often have the chance to talk to them about their experiences.

However, I know that members of the Canadian Forces are very disciplined, rigorous and dedicated. When they make a commitment, they follow through on it.

This bill, which amends the National Defence Act, meets a long-standing need. We have had discussions about this and we have talked about the report issued in 2003 by the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer. Other reports have been released since then, including the recent LeSage report, which was published in 2011.

Various bills have been introduced in response to the recommendations made in these reports, but they died on the order paper either because an election was called or for other reasons.

Bill C-15 went to committee. As was mentioned, the NDP worked very hard to correct certain shortcomings in this bill.

As my colleague mentioned, it is a small step in the right direction. We must take into account this bill's long history and the recommendations that have been made over the years. This bill addresses a need. The government has taken a step forward by acknowledging the NDP's proposed amendments. Nearly 95% of breaches of the Code of Service Discipline will no longer result in a criminal record. That is one of the reasons why we support Bill C-15.

Earlier in my speech I mentioned that the NDP recognizes the importance of the hard work and dedication of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces. We want the justice system to treat them fairly, and at the same time we acknowledge that the Canadian Armed Forces are very disciplined and rigorous. We want military justice to be fairer, and that is very important to us. That is why the committee members and the NDP worked very hard to make their case on this bill. As a result of their work, breaches of the Code of Service Discipline will no longer result in a criminal record. We worked very hard on this, and the government was open to working with us.

We think it is very important to have an exhaustive independent study of the military justice system and to introduce legislation in response to the LeSage report within a year. Bill C-15 does not really take the LeSage report recommendations into account. I think a study on this should be conducted.

As for the reform of the summary trial system, I think we can expand the list of military offences that do not result in a criminal record. We saw some openness from the government to that. We must also reform the grievance system.

I will conclude with a very important point, which is that we must strengthen the Military Police Complaints Commission. Around the world, countries like Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and the United Kingdom are reforming their military justice system and increasingly making room for a civilian component.

We must look at these possibilities. Many of our allies thought it was good to change their summary trial system, which makes us wonder why Canada has waited to so long to modernize our own military justice system.

I think that involving civil society would be beneficial, not only for members of our military, but also for society in general. It would ensure that our system is in line with Canadian values.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague, as a person who was involved in the military justice system for over 30 years, on the receiving end for very minor things and on the dispensing end for some things that were minor and some that were somewhat more major.

We are talking about the equitableness of the system. In my experience within the system, it was equitable within the context of the military, which is different, and we acknowledge it is different. I do not think it will ever be precisely like the civilian system, for some very good reasons.

My colleague talked about reform and bringing more civilianization to the system. That is being done. One of the things that is being done with Bill C-15 is another advancement on that. The bill has been through three Parliaments in various forms and three bills in various forms.

The previous speaker talked about taking the advice of Ruby over the advice of the parliamentary secretary. I would certainly take the advice of Justices LeSage and Dickson over that of Mr. Ruby. He has agendas that I am sure are pure at heart, but some others may attribute something else to it.

We have had more than 100 speeches this time on this subject. As I said, it has been through three Parliaments and three bills. It is not perfect. It will never be perfect in the eyes of the opposition members, and that is fair ball. The member talks about wanting to do an end-to-end review and come back in another year. If they want to pursue that, it is fine, but is it not time to quit this continuous 100-speech marathon and just get on with it because it is improvement and we can work on it as we go forward?

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague knows that the NDP intends to support the bill at third reading.

However, given how important this bill is, the government may not wait another 10 or 20 years before it reviews it. That is why I made that recommendation. As we know, the LeSage report came out in 2011. I think we could consider some of the relevant recommendations and have a legislative review in due course. That is my recommendation.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech.

I would like her to clarify something. Of course, we are preparing to support the bill because the government has sort of opened the door to an improvement. As things stand now, any improvements that can make a difference on the ground for our men and women in uniform deserve to be supported, even though we know that this is not very much and a great deal more needs to be done.

However, I have a question about the approach. I just heard a Conservative member say that it was time to put an end to all these debates and move forward. How is it that the government is opening a door, while systematically rejecting all amendments at committee, even the amendments that support the government's openness? That has actually been the case in pretty much every committee, with each and every bill.

Could the hon. member explain this partisan approach, which is light years away from the service that Canadians and our military should be receiving?

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising this key point.

Committees do indeed play a role in Parliament and they are a place for us to hear from civilian, military and other experts. Those experts provide us with a whole new perspective on issues. The official opposition and the opposition are there to bring their perspective on bills.

It is really unfortunate that the government systematically refuses to consider those perspectives, and to thereby make progress. We must move forward, and our common goal here is to bring good bills to Canadians, bills that reflect their values. It is the government's responsibility to listen to Canadians and Canadians' representatives, which is what we all are regardless of our political stripe or party.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to congratulate my hon. colleague from LaSalle—Émard on her excellent speech and her handling of the members' questions. She explained quite nicely how important it is to the NDP to bring forward strong legislation, especially since the Conservative government tends to propose such flawed legislation, as they did with Bill C-15.

Canadians can rest assured that the NDP will be here every step along the way to improve these bills and to ensure that we can live in a country with laws that properly reflect the values of Canadians. I would therefore like to reiterate what my hon. colleague already mentioned—that the NDP will be supporting this bill at third reading.

On March 21, 2013, I spoke on this issue and expressed my concerns in that regard. As the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, I represent many members of the Royal Canadian Air Force, since the Bagotville military base, which I love, is located in my riding. I care deeply about the well-being of these military personnel, so I was outraged that such simple and minor breaches of the Code of Service Discipline could lead to a criminal record, which would in turn have truly negative repercussions on their lives, both through their years of active service and afterwards.

In committee, the NDP fought to defend those military personnel, 95% of whom would have paid the price for that imperfection in Bill C-15. After the NDP proposed amendments, the government finally came to its senses and changes were made to Bill C-15. That is why will be voting in favour of the bill.

On October 7, 2011, the Minister of National Defence introduced Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. Bill C-15 would amend the National Defence Act to strengthen military justice following the 2003 report of the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer, and the May 2009 report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.

The bill would provide for greater flexibility during the sentencing process and it would provide for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, intermittent sentences and restitution. It would modify the composition of a court martial panel according to the rank of the accused person. It would also modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and allows an accused person to waive the limitation periods. It sets out the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal’s duties and functions and would make amendments to the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff’s powers as the final authority in the grievance process.

Generally speaking, Bill C-15 is a step in the right direction. However, the government should have done more. Bill C-15 also gives new powers to the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff regarding military police investigations, which we consider to be a step backward.

Bill C-15 suffers from the Conservatives' slow-footed response to the LeSage report, which was not incorporated in the bill, along with the lack of wall-to-wall review of the sections of the National Defence Act pertaining to military justice. We are letting our soldiers down with this unnecessarily slow pace of change. I encourage the Conservative government to adjust its attitude about amending laws that affect the military.

We want to reassure Canadians that the NDP will continue to lay the groundwork for a larger review of the need for the modernization and civilianization of the military legal system and the implementation of greater civilian oversight. We will make sure that that happens whether we form the official opposition or the government. I feel it is in the interest of all Canadians and particularly Canadian military personnel.

As I mentioned earlier, as a result of the NDP victory after a long and hard-fought battle for the amendment to clause 75 on criminal records—an issue on which our party has strongly and publicly expressed its view—my party is now ready to support the improvements to the military justice system set out in the bill, despite the fact that the bill has no teeth and the reform is not being implemented quickly enough.

Once in power, we are determined to continue to move forward with the reforms and to reverse the regressive measure providing new powers to the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff with respect to military police investigations.

Clearly, Canadians will understand that we have to wait until 2015 to do so. However, we are still going to hound the Conservative government for the next two years.

As I said, the NDP victory forced the government to make some amendments so that almost 95% of disciplinary offences would no longer result in criminal records. We will support Bill C-15. The NDP is proud to vote for a significant, tangible result for the members of the Canadian Forces, a result that we fought hard for and successfully managed to have included in the legislation.

Our efforts have established one more important reform in building a fairer military justice system.

People may not be aware that, when the bill was studied in committee, the NDP did what a real party must do: it proposed amendments in order to improve the bill and eliminate its flaws. In committee, the NDP proposed 22 amendments and five subamendments, while the Liberals proposed none. That shows that the NDP is the party that cares about improving Conservative bills, especially those that affect our Canadian Forces.

Members of the Canadian Armed Forces must uphold standards of discipline that are among the most rigorous. In return, they deserve a justice system with comparable standards. The NDP will support the improvements proposed by Bill C-15, because it is a step in the right direction. However, the government should have done more, as has already been mentioned.

The NDP also regrets that the Conservative government is determined to adopt a piecemeal approach. Changing the military justice system requires an independent review of the entire National Defence Act, which governs the military justice system. The NDP is also asking the government to provide a legislative response to the LeSage report within one year because it has yet to do so. Members of our Canadian Armed Forces deserve no less.

I will now speak in more detail about Bill C-15. This bill is similar to Bill C-41, which came out of a committee in the previous Parliament. However, important amendments made at committee stage in the last Parliament are missing from Bill C-15.

One of the main omissions is the lack of any provision to expand the list of offences that do not result in a criminal record. The NDP, in the House and in committee, asked for changes and proposed amendments in order to reduce the impact of disciplinary sentences and ensure they do not give rise to a criminal record, and also to raise the issue of the lack of a full charter of rights. In committee, the NDP fought to improve the bill and to reform the military justice system in a more meaningful way.

As I already mentioned, through our efforts, the list of offences that will not result in a criminal record was expanded. We also presented a series of amendments to improve the bill, thereby showing our commitment to truly reforming the system. I will talk about five of those amendments.

We asked that the Chief of the Defence Staff be granted the financial authority to compensate members of the Canadian Armed Forces as part of a grievance resolution process, in direct response to Justice Lamer's recommendation. We also proposed changes to the composition of the grievance resolution committee to include 60% civilian membership and not to include active members of the Canadian Forces, which would make the committee more independent. We also proposed a provision that would guarantee that a person convicted of an offence during a summary trial is not unfairly subjected to a criminal record. We also wanted to guarantee the independence of the police by abolishing subsections 18.5(3) to 18.5(5), in clause 4 of the bill to prevent the Chief of the Defence Staff from issuing specific instructions on an investigation to the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal. Finally, I believe that it is important to make the House aware of the final recommendation we made, which involved precisions regarding the letter of the law, as recommended by Justice LeSage, to indicate that a charge must be laid within a year after the offence was committed.

Mr. Speaker, since my time is quickly running out, I am going to stop there. Canadians can take comfort in the fact that the NDP is there to ensure that the Conservatives' bills are improved in committee and in the House of Commons. We will continue to fight for the men and women who protect our country.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord for his speech and for the NDP's belated but welcome support for the bill here as well as at committee. I am a member of the national defence committee, and we were certainly grateful to get the NDP's support for our amendments on criminal records for summary trial offences. That was a positive.

I would say that the member's speech was so comprehensive and set out the NDP position so well that I would hope that NDP members would now let the speech of the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord stand so that we may move on to a vote on this issue. As the member for Edmonton Centre mentioned, there have been 100 speeches on this issue, and we know that they do have an interest in this. Perhaps I could ask the member how much more he believes needs to be put on the table after his excellent and comprehensive speech.

Perhaps the member could also talk about the Liberal Party's new-found interest in this file and the fact that while the Liberals could not be bothered to stay until the end of the committee proceedings on this bill, they have now decided to ramp up their efforts. Maybe he could talk a bit about that, and bout why they did not address the issue during their 13 years in government. Maybe they just needed a little more time.

If the member could address both of those issues, that would be great.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my Conservative colleague for his kind and truly heartwarming compliments.

As I mentioned, I represent members of the Canadian Armed Forces at the Bagotville military base, so I care about the men and women working there for Canadians across the country.

The member asked several questions. I will begin by answering the one about the Liberals' interest in military justice reform. The Liberal Party of Canada's contribution to the debate was perfectly clear in committee: its members did not propose a single amendment. Their level of involvement in the committee showed that they do not really care about this issue, no matter what they are willing to say when the national media spotlight is on them.

We will finally get to vote on this issue, and I am pleased to speak as the representative of the Bagotville military base because this issue is important to me.

I believe that every member of the House of Commons has the right to express his or her point of view on this issue. I can assure the member that although some NDP members still wish to speak, my party and I will vote in favour of this bill.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is somewhat comforting to a certain degree, and no surprise, that we see the New Democrats and Conservatives almost giving a group hug. It is almost as if they are trying to get in touch with their past and are finding it great to be able to take shots at the Liberal Party.

However, it is interesting that NDP members are saying they brought in amendment after amendment to this legislation. They feel a little sensitive to the fact that the Liberal Party approached the committee with an open mind, believing that the government would bring in some changes, although it chose not to. Maybe the question to the member should be to ask exactly how many of the NDP's numerous amendments actually passed at the committee stage.

I am being a little presumptuous here, as I was not at that particular committee. However, I have had the opportunity to speak on this bill and express concerns regarding it, and I suspect the answer to that question will be zero. Given the NDP's new-found friendship with the Conservative—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order. I would ask all hon. members to be mindful of the Chair's cues that their time is nearing its end.

The hon. member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will make my answer brief.

The NDP supports this measure. My Liberal colleague seems to think that we are good buddies with the Conservatives. We do respect each other as colleagues. The NDP is a very reasonable party.

When the Conservative government introduces bad bills, we propose amendments or we vote against the bill if amendments are not necessary. We would do the same thing if a Liberal government were in power. A New Democratic government would work with members of the opposition; that sets us apart from the other parties. We would do so in the interest of all Canadians.

My Liberal colleague said that he had hoped the government would propose amendments in good faith. I would like to remind him that, as a committee member, his role is to propose amendments, argue in their favour, and get them passed. The NDP proposed 22 amendments and five subamendments. The Conservatives proposed two and the Liberals did not propose any. This shows just how—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order.

The hon. member for Beaches—East York has the floor.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my friend did not know I was coming. I am sure he would have withheld those comments had he known.

I will be splitting my time with the member for Windsor West.

It is great to talk about Bill C-15 today. My colleagues and I support the bill at third reading.

Members may recall that I spoke in opposition to the bill at second reading. I applaud the great efforts of my colleagues on the defence committee, as have others in the House today, who put forward 22 amendments and five subamendments and made a great effort to change the bill. As has been pointed out today, none of this was successful, but the bill was amended at committee: the Conservatives saw fit to amend their own mistakes, which is always helpful.

That is not to say that we support this legislation wholeheartedly; it is somewhat reluctantly that we do so.

I want to comment on this issue for a moment, because it has been the subject of much debate.

It is a bit tricky, of course, to support a government bill at third reading. We heard the Minister of National Defence waxing philosophical earlier today about not letting perfection get in the way of progress; on the other hand, we heard the Liberal defence critic express his confusion and uncertainty about how and why the NDP could support this legislation. The challenge is more difficult than either of those extremes would suggest.

This is not so much a philosophical matter; it is really a very practical one. Justice systems, as informed as they are by theory and philosophy, have very real, profound and practical implications for those who are subjected to them, and this is obviously the case before us. For reasons that we all seem to agree with, this is about balancing the need for quick and expeditious military justice against the need to keep discipline in the forces, while yet providing fairness for forces members.

Today we are considering a unique military justice system and its need for discipline, but we also need to take into consideration the issue of time. That has to weigh heavily on our considerations about whether to support the bill or not.

For all the talk about their support for the military, the Liberals did nothing with their majority government to amend the act, in spite of having before them the report of a justice who made 88 recommendations. The Conservatives have been in government now for seven long years and have similarly opted to do nothing up to this point.

It is because this legislation has such a long history that we need to consider what we can agree to and what we must agree to in order to make progress and move this legislation forward.

I will not recite the full history. I have no time for that today, but I will give a short summary to illustrate the point.

The bill had its genesis in a 2003 report on the Canadian military justice system by a former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer. That report contained 88 recommendations for change and was suggestive of some significant deficiencies in Canada's military justice system.

The bill is also a legislative response to a 2009 report by the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs dealing with these very same matters.

In December 2011 yet another military justice report was presented to the government, this time by a former chief justice of the Ontario Superior Court, the Hon. Patrick LeSage. I would note that the Conservative government sat on that report for a year or so before finally tabling it in June 2012.

To date, only 28 of the recommendations from that original Lamer report of 2003 have actually been implemented, some in the form of legislation, some as regulations, and some as changes in practice.

We have even lost some ground, it needs to be noted. In the previous Parliament, Bill C-41 died on the order paper. That bill included important updates to the National Defence Act that are interestingly absent from the bill we are considering today. The change got moved back upfield, and that is disappointing.

However, I think the length of time that the current government and the previous Liberal government have taken to bring some sense of fairness to the members of our armed forces with respect to the justice system means that we need to consider very seriously what we need to do now, because we do not know when we will get our next opportunity to make change. It is important that we make tangible change to this system so that it is a military justice system worthy of this country and worthy of the commitment that members of the Canadian Armed Forces make to this country.

As frustrating as all of that is, we focus on the progress that is being made. We see some progress, although I would shy away from calling it significant. It comes in the form of greater flexibility, for example, for the sentencing process to more closely parallel the civil criminal justice system. It would provide for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, et cetera; it would modify the composition of a court martial panel; it would modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and would allow an accused person to waive limitation periods; and it would clarify the responsibilities of the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal.

It would also make amendments to the delegation of the powers of the Chief of the Defence Staff as the final authority in the grievance process.

Above all, as tangible as these changes are, one stands out as critically important and most certainly worthy of support. It is an issue that we in the NDP have pushed for many years, including in the previous Parliament, and we actually had made some progress with it in Bill C-41. It is this issue more than any other that tips the balance in favour of supporting this bill, and it has to do with the number of offences that could result in a criminal record.

The NDP, through the long history of the bill, has consistently pushed for a reduction in the number of these offences. With this amendment from Bill C-15 emerging out of committee, it would be the case that about 95% of cases would not attract a criminal record. In addition, those who have been previously convicted of these offences would have their records expunged.

This is an important issue because many of the offences that we have been focusing on do not generally have a civilian equivalent. They are, for example, offences described in section 85 of the act that involve threatening or insulting language or contemptuous behaviour toward a superior officer. Section 86 involves failing to stop someone from deserting, and section 97 deals with drunkenness.

We have long considered it unjust, as have many other experts who have weighed in on this matter, that convictions for those kinds of offences through this kind of summary trial process could result in criminal records that could follow members of the Canadian Armed Forces into their civilian lives.

It is important to note that the summary trial is used to try about 95% of disciplinary cases in the forces. It is this process that is used to effect a balance between the competing interests of discipline and returning a soldier to service. As such, fairness and justice are compromised.

For example, a commanding officer or a designated superior officer could act as the judge, and there would be no legal counsel, no appeal, not even a transcript of the file. We consider it unfair for criminal records to flow from that and follow a soldier into civilian life, so we are pleased to see that amendment and we will be supporting the bill.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his speech. He reminded us of how important this bill is and how much time has gone into it. He also reminded us of how important it is to be able to debate this bill in the House, even though we feel that the Conservatives would like to cut these debates and questions short.

However, this is all part of the democratic parliamentary process that Canadians have built over several centuries. We must not let this process fall apart, any more than we must let the parliamentary committee process fall apart, as I mentioned earlier. In committee, we brought forward 12 amendments and five subamendments that are part of the parliamentary process and that seek to improve the bill.

Could my colleague elaborate on the importance of the democratic institutions at our disposal?

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we have to take the opportunity in the House and in committee to fully express our views on these matters. We stand in the House and listen almost daily to the government profess its support for military personnel. The protestations of support for military personnel need to be put in context and examined fully. This bill is supposed to reflect respect for the military personnel of Canada, yet we have a bill that falls far short of what is required to fully respect the rights of our military personnel and to provide them with a system of justice that is fair and deserving of what all Canadians have.

New Democrats will take this opportunity to support this bill but also to demonstrate to Canadian people what is missing in terms of respect for Canadian military personnel.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague's speech. He talked about having done nothing and that only 29 of Chief Justice Lamer's measures were fully implemented. The government accepted 83 of the 88 recommendations, and outside of the ones we accepted, the rest are in progress. In fact, 36 more will be fully implemented by Bill C-15.

Therefore, I would not call that doing nothing exactly. It may be slower than people would like, and I grant that things do not move as fast as anybody would like, including me. I will point out that one of the reasons for the slowness of this in some people's minds is the fact that the process in Parliament can be very convoluted. As was said previously, this bill has gone through three iterations and three parliaments. In fact, Bill C-41 died the last time due to the opposition calling an unnecessary election. It is a bit rich to blame the government for delays when we have legislation that could have passed, but the opposition brought down the government for an unnecessary election. Canadians have spoken on that.

As far as cutting this short goes, I do not think 100 speeches is exactly cutting this short.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a shame the member claims that democracy got in the way of their plans, but they have had seven years to date. I did not have the chance, as time did not afford me the opportunity, to talk about the reservations. The member may be correct about 83 of 88 recommendations, but the shortcomings that stand out in this bill are very serious shortcomings. One of them is that this bill essentially gives the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff the authority to direct military police investigations.

The former chair of the Military Police Complaints Commission said the following at committee:

My very brief summary submission is that if Bill C-15 is passed into law in its present form, inclusive of the new subsection 18.5(3) authorizing the VCDS to interfere with police operations and investigations, it will be inconsistent with the principles of police independence as recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada a[s] late as 1999 as underpinning the rule of law...

That is a very serious shortcoming in this bill and it is a shame that the government wants to rush it through without taking the opportunity to make that kind—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Before I resume debate, I just to want to remind all hon. members that when members give 10-minute speeches, it is followed by five minutes for questions and comments. We typically try to get two exchanges during those five minutes.

That means that after about one minute, the Chair is giving you a signal to wrap up quickly so that there is equal time for a response and then a similar amount of time for the second question or comment, followed by a response from the speaker.

I urge all hon. members to pay attention to the Chair. We try to give you a signal when you are approaching the last ten seconds of your time. While we are reluctant to cut people off mid-sentence, that is something that we may need to do, particularly for those who often seem to need that abrupt guidance at the end of their comments.

I am not picking on anyone in particular here. It is just a general reminder to all that this way, we can ensure that two questions get asked of roughly similar length and that the person responding has approximately the same amount of time to respond to the issue that was raised.

With that, resuming debate, the hon. member for Windsor West.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that advice and will stick to that when I get to my questions and comments period. I appreciate the opportunity to rise and talk about this important issue.

Bill C-15, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts is very underwhelming. It has been around since 2003 in several different forms. It has re-emerged with some improvements, but it has been kicked around this place for some time.

We are seeing it come to a conclusion. The mere fact that it does not have one of these targeted names that the government often gives bills is indicative of its mediocrity. It is named “an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts”. My experience in this place in the last number of years is that the government has introduced bills with very tempting names to try to promote them. In this situation, we do not have that. I think that is an indicator of where we are right now.

As New Democrats, we will support this bill. We will move it forward. The member for Beaches—East York has done a good job on this file, the best he can. The committee has as well, making amendments to the bill.

It is important, because it is about judicial systems and about judgment to our military families. I come from an area where military families are a tradition and an honour. The Windsor and Essex County area has been, since the birth of this nation, participating in the military on a regular basis. The first time was in 1749, a French militia, and subsequently in the War of 1812, the South African War, the First World War, the Second World War, Korea, peacekeepers, Afghanistan. We have been a regular recruitment zone for military service.

We have some of the strongest veterans' organizations out there. It is important. I have seen what happens to some of our officers and some of our regiment, and those who are supporting them, and their families when they have come home. I have had a chance to sit in on some sessions at the Legion, involving everyone from Afghan vets to World War II vets still talking about how difficult it is to get to the next day. It is very difficult, but at the same time they are very proud of those traditions.

I have a little personal experience with this as well. My grandfather, John Clifford Addison, was an ordinary code man who went down on the HMS Scorpion in the fall of Burma. I did not know my grandfather. I never met him. I do not know much about him. I have his medals. I have his soccer medals, as well.

I was very fortunate. Like so many others, my grandmother, Irene Attwood, was in England at the time. She married Fred Attwood. When he came to Canada, he treated me as his own grandson. I was at the house all the time, listening to my grandfather telling his stories, talking about experiences and his mates at the kitchen table. I can still smell the flavourful scones my grandmother would cook and the tea, with big band music in the background, as we sat and discussed what took place.

The reservation I have for this bill is that if justice is not served properly to those in the military, then we are going to have consequences outside when they finish their service. I have seen that. What worries me about this bill is that we have not done enough with regard to the amendments that needed to take place in order for this bill to be improved, whether it be giving the Chief of the Defence Staff the financial authority or whether it be making sure that the processing is done properly so that they can actually have justice at the end of the day.

There have been a number of witnesses who have come forward suggesting that this is not complete. We had a number of amendments made at committee that were not done. That concerns me, because this bill has been around this place for so long.

I am going to go through some of the changes we wanted to take place and that perhaps can get done at another date. I do not know if the current government is interested in doing that. It is a risk we have to take. The bill is going forward anyway, with some modest improvements, but I hope there is some sincere attempt to go further on the recommendations that came through a lot of work, thought, discussion and debate. As I noted, this bill has been kicked around this place for a number of years, and it is time to finally get something done, but it is disappointing that we have not had some of the other elements we wanted.

One of those was to conduct an independent wall-to-wall review of the military justice system and provide a legislative response to the LeSage report within a year. Neither the report in 2003 by the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer, nor the report from the former chief justice of the Superior Court, the Hon. Patrick LeSage, provided a complete independent review of the entire military justice system. We think it is time to do that. We think it is time to move that point forward, and I think there is enough support to do that.

Another thing we wanted to have is reform of the summary trial system. The Hon. Patrick LeSage said:

Suffice it to say I have very real concerns about obtaining a criminal record from a summary trial conviction. The issue of criminal records flowing from convictions at summary trial must be reviewed. The very damage that flows from a criminal record and the potential effect on a person's life is far too severe a consequence for most offences tried by summary trial.

This is where I get into my background of working with youth at risk and other persons who have disabilities, where stigmas are evolved or are created on a person and there are consequential effects. For example, if individuals have that on their record, it affects them in going for a job, in education, in their neighbourhood, with applications for credit or for any type of assistance, if it has to be disclosed. Those individuals are living with this cloud over top of them.

I see it on a regular basis, even in my home riding, where I have a good example with regard to a stigma staying left over. I have a Ford truck driver who smoked marijuana, got caught and has a federal conviction, so every time he goes into the United States, he is rightly pulled over because he has a record, but sometimes he is made to sit there for four or five hours. We have to intervene and say the authorities should pull him over and go through the vehicle and do all the inspections and enforcement they want to do, but the just-in-time delivery that the person is doing right there is important for both of our economies. He has to live with that type of stigma and that type of potential every single time he crosses the border. It is his own fault and he has to pay for it, but the reality is that there is a consequence.

Therefore, as an employment specialist on behalf of persons with disabilities and youth at risk, what I worry about is that even some of the minor convictions can make a difference in terms of a person being able to get a job or employment. It is critical that this issue is addressed in here, because if our military personnel have that, even if it is not something that is openly known in the community, they are still living with that bubble above them.

I have one last point. We want to expand on the service offences exempt from criminal records as well and, last, to reform the grievance system so that there are more appropriate opportunities for someone to grieve a situation.

With that, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this chamber to this issue, and I welcome comments and questions and will be prompt in terms of my response.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. members for Windsor West and Beaches—East York for their half-hearted support of the bill, but support nonetheless. We will take it, at this point.

One of the things the member referenced in his speech was the summary trials. Supreme Court of Canada former chief justice Brian Dickson, who examined the summary trial system, stated:

The requirement for military efficiency and discipline entails the need for summary procedures. This suggests that investigation of offences and their disposition should be done quickly and at the unit level.

Former chief justice Lamer also said:

Canada has developed a very sound and fair military justice framework in which Canadians can have trust and confidence.

There certainly have been in-depth examinations of the summary trial process and it has been found to be fair, and found to be constitutional as well.

The member mentioned the undue hardship on a member with post-service consequences of summary trials. However, the reason the members are supporting the bill at third reading is that 95% of convictions at summary trial stage would no longer appear on a criminal record. Would the member not agree that this would be a step in the right direction, and that is the reason they are supporting the bill?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member is absolutely right that it is one of the improvements in the bill and a significant step forward. However, there are just so many other issues that it leaves me with a certain amount of duress with regard to what we could be doing.

As this bill has been around the House and chamber for so long yet is only moving forward modestly, it gives me a great deal of duress to think about how long it will take to get the job done.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I too will not criticize the NDP members for their half-hearted support for this bill. The half of the heart is quite justified.

The hon. member has articulated a concern with respect to convictions that translate into records that follow people for the rest of their life. He would know that the pardon system has been replaced by some other system, although we are not quite sure what. To access the pardon system, people virtually need to engage a lawyer who needs to fight his or her way through the bureaucracy, the result of which is that offences that might be relatively minor, in civilian terms, end up following those soldiers for the rest of their lives and affect their ability to cross the border, gain employment and so forth. Those are serious consequences.

Notwithstanding the half-hearted support, I would be interested in the hon. member's concerns, if he could put those on the record.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the great question as well as being a good defenceman this year when we played hockey. I wanted to acknowledge that.

What is very important is the trail that follows the individual afterward.

Also, that is an interesting and important point about having to engage the legal system. We often see people who are exiting the military transition to some other type of occupation. Having to do that with a lawyer in tow would be a great burden on those individuals. That really shows what needs to be improved by the bill. One of two things would happen. They would either go without legal defence if they could not afford it, or they would spend some of their resources on that defence, as opposed to on training and transitioning to another occupation.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will start by saying that I am pleased to be sharing my time with the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, who will undoubtedly echo my remarks today.

First of all, as some of my colleagues have mentioned, it is important to say that the NDP will support the bill at third reading stage. We remember the process that the bill went through in the House at second reading and then in committee. It has now come back to the House, and it will have the NDP's support for a number of reasons that I will discuss.

I will provide a bit of background on what happened with this bill and where it came from. I will be brief because my comments are not necessarily related to third reading stage. On October 7, 2011, the Minister of National Defence introduced Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, or the Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act.

Bill C-15 amends the National Defence Act in order to strengthen military justice. It was introduced in response to the 2003 report by the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and the May 2009 report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. Those are the origins of the bill.

To give everyone some context, I will go through the objectives of this bill. It provides for more flexibility in the sentencing process. It also provides for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, intermittent sentences and restitution. It would modify the composition of a court martial panel in accordance with the rank of the accused person. It would also modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and would allow an accused person to waive the limitation periods. The bill sets out the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal's duties and functions. It makes amendments to the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff's powers as the final authority in the grievance process.

That is a summary of the bill, which is rather long and impressive. It includes many things that deserve to be debated and discussed at length in the House.

As members know, the NDP feels that Bill C-15 is a step in the right direction. However, it is very important to note that the government could have perhaps done more, including listening to the opposition, which expressed a number of concerns and continues to do so, even as we are at third reading and approaching the final vote. However, perhaps the other place will consider the concerns we have raised.

Today I will discuss four issues that I think are the most important. I will first talk about the summary trials process and about police investigations conducted by military police. We know that there is the possibility of interference in these investigations. I will also talk about criminal records, and more specifically about our victory with certain crimes, which we are very happy about. I will talk more about this. Lastly, I will talk about the grievance process.

We thought that the summary trials issue was very important. We felt that sometimes, members of the Canadian Forces did not necessarily have the same rights as other Canadians who are protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We did not think that was right. Unfortunately, the government did not address this in the bill and the summary trials process remains unchanged.

I have a great deal of respect for members of the Canadian Armed Forces. I often cross paths with them because there are two reserve units stationed in my riding. I therefore often have the opportunity to interact with them, to talk to them, and to learn more about them. I did not have the opportunity to serve myself, even though I wanted and intended to. In the end, it did not happen. I took another path that led me here today. However, this job still allows me to talk about the armed forces, to get involved and to have fairly frequent contact with members.

I could not believe that all members of the Canadian Forces did not necessarily have the same protection.

As Canadians, we are protected by the charter. We have the right to a fair and equitable trial and we have access to a lawyer and legal advice. That is not necessarily the case in a summary trial. Members of the Canadian Forces do not always have access to this type of counsel, and the NDP believes that they do not have the same rights as Canadians who are not members of the Canadian Forces. We must do everything we can so that those who decide to serve our country and give their time, energy and sometimes their lives get more respect from our government, are well protected and have the same rights as everyone else.

We have another concern about this bill. It pertains to military police investigations. The bill makes a few changes to a provision that would allow the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff to intervene in military police investigations through the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal. I am using some terms that I am not really familiar with, but I know enough about them after examining the bill, especially since I had the opportunity to speak about this bill at second reading. I familiarized myself with this process. I found it unbelievable that this potential interference could not be avoided since the provision gave the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff the authority to intervene with regard to how the military police investigation should or should not be conducted. In my opinion, this provision caused the military police to become somewhat less independent.

To draw an analogy with the current civilian police, it would be inconceivable for the mayor of a city to call the chief of police in that city to say that there is no need to continue an investigation or to tell the chief how to carry out the investigations under way. The same goes for provincial police and a premier. We can draw a parallel. In the case of military police, we must make sure that no interference is possible and that the police maintain their independence. When the police carry out an investigation, they have to do so as independently as possible so that the results are as reliable as possible.

In terms of criminal records, we have some good news. As my colleagues mentioned today, we were particularly concerned about the issue of criminal records. From the very beginning of the process, when various bills were introduced in the House, we have expressed reservations on a number of occasions. It was inconceivable that, after a summary trial, which I mentioned earlier, members of the Canadian Armed Forces would often end up with a criminal record. I will not list everything, but the NDP worked very hard to include exemptions for minor offences and to ensure that the people who decide to serve us will not have criminal records for those minor offences—which a regular Canadian would not have—especially after going through a process that is not necessarily fair and equitable.

I would have liked to talk about the grievance system. Perhaps I will have an opportunity to do so during questions and comments.