Debates of April 30th, 2013

Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will start by saying that I am pleased to be sharing my time with the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, who will undoubtedly echo my remarks today.

First of all, as some of my colleagues have mentioned, it is important to say that the NDP will support the bill at third reading stage. We remember the process that the bill went through in the House at second reading and then in committee. It has now come back to the House, and it will have the NDP's support for a number of reasons that I will discuss.

I will provide a bit of background on what happened with this bill and where it came from. I will be brief because my comments are not necessarily related to third reading stage. On October 7, 2011, the Minister of National Defence introduced Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, or the Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act.

Bill C-15 amends the National Defence Act in order to strengthen military justice. It was introduced in response to the 2003 report by the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, the Right Hon. Antonio Lamer, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and the May 2009 report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. Those are the origins of the bill.

To give everyone some context, I will go through the objectives of this bill. It provides for more flexibility in the sentencing process. It also provides for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, intermittent sentences and restitution. It would modify the composition of a court martial panel in accordance with the rank of the accused person. It would also modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and would allow an accused person to waive the limitation periods. The bill sets out the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal's duties and functions. It makes amendments to the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff's powers as the final authority in the grievance process.

That is a summary of the bill, which is rather long and impressive. It includes many things that deserve to be debated and discussed at length in the House.

As members know, the NDP feels that Bill C-15 is a step in the right direction. However, it is very important to note that the government could have perhaps done more, including listening to the opposition, which expressed a number of concerns and continues to do so, even as we are at third reading and approaching the final vote. However, perhaps the other place will consider the concerns we have raised.

Today I will discuss four issues that I think are the most important. I will first talk about the summary trials process and about police investigations conducted by military police. We know that there is the possibility of interference in these investigations. I will also talk about criminal records, and more specifically about our victory with certain crimes, which we are very happy about. I will talk more about this. Lastly, I will talk about the grievance process.

We thought that the summary trials issue was very important. We felt that sometimes, members of the Canadian forces did not necessarily have the same rights as other Canadians who are protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We did not think that was right. Unfortunately, the government did not address this in the bill and the summary trials process remains unchanged.

I have a great deal of respect for members of the Canadian Armed Forces. I often cross paths with them because there are two reserve units stationed in my riding. I therefore often have the opportunity to interact with them, to talk to them, and to learn more about them. I did not have the opportunity to serve myself, even though I wanted and intended to. In the end, it did not happen. I took another path that led me here today. However, this job still allows me to talk about the armed forces, to get involved and to have fairly frequent contact with members.

I could not believe that all members of the Canadian Forces did not necessarily have the same protection.

As Canadians, we are protected by the charter. We have the right to a fair and equitable trial and we have access to a lawyer and legal advice. That is not necessarily the case in a summary trial. Members of the Canadian Forces do not always have access to this type of counsel, and the NDP believes that they do not have the same rights as Canadians who are not members of the Canadian Forces. We must do everything we can so that those who decide to serve our country and give their time, energy and sometimes their lives get more respect from our government, are well protected and have the same rights as everyone else.

We have another concern about this bill. It pertains to military police investigations. The bill makes a few changes to a provision that would allow the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff to intervene in military police investigations through the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal. I am using some terms that I am not really familiar with, but I know enough about them after examining the bill, especially since I had the opportunity to speak about this bill at second reading. I familiarized myself with this process. I found it unbelievable that this potential interference could not be avoided since the provision gave the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff the authority to intervene with regard to how the military police investigation should or should not be conducted. In my opinion, this provision caused the military police to become somewhat less independent.

To draw an analogy with the current civilian police, it would be inconceivable for the mayor of a city to call the chief of police in that city to say that there is no need to continue an investigation or to tell the chief how to carry out the investigations under way. The same goes for provincial police and a premier. We can draw a parallel. In the case of military police, we must make sure that no interference is possible and that the police maintain their independence. When the police carry out an investigation, they have to do so as independently as possible so that the results are as reliable as possible.

In terms of criminal records, we have some good news. As my colleagues mentioned today, we were particularly concerned about the issue of criminal records. From the very beginning of the process, when various bills were introduced in the House, we have expressed reservations on a number of occasions. It was inconceivable that, after a summary trial, which I mentioned earlier, members of the Canadian Armed Forces would often end up with a criminal record. I will not list everything, but the NDP worked very hard to include exemptions for minor offences and to ensure that the people who decide to serve us will not have criminal records for those minor offences—which a regular Canadian would not have—especially after going through a process that is not necessarily fair and equitable.

I would have liked to talk about the grievance system. Perhaps I will have an opportunity to do so during questions and comments.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have three or four quick points and a quick question.

The speaker from Windsor West was lamenting the lack of a flowery title. I point out that the short title of the bill is very descriptive. It is called strengthening military justice in the defence of Canada act. That is pretty descriptive.

I will say that I believe that my hon. colleague is only 20, so he has lots of time to have a career in Parliament and then to sign up for the military. I would encourage him to do that. It is a great profession.

I will point out that the Provost Marshal, in discussing Bill C-41, said that he had faith in the independence of the system, which goes to one of the situations to which my hon. colleague has taken exception.

On the point of counsel, the vast majority of cases are minor in nature. For summary trials and other measures, people all have either counsel or an assisting officer who can assist them through the process.

One of the important features of the military justice system is timeliness, especially in a field of operation like Afghanistan. We would want to get the individual through the system and back into ops to conduct the mission of the forces. The vast majority of cases are minor, and timeliness is of the essence.

Does my hon. colleague have any comments on the necessity for timeliness in the military justice system?

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for the exceptional contribution he is making. He served in the Canadian Forces for decades.

As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, in my role as MP, I have crossed paths with many members of the two Canadian Forces reserve units in my area. Those encounters have fuelled my growing passion for military issues, which is why I am pleased to be able to speak to this issue involving the Canadian Armed Forces.

As a member, I hope to be able to contribute as much as possible, in my own way. As for the suggestion that I serve as part of the Canadian Armed Forces, I cannot reject it outright, but only time will tell.

He also mentioned that timeliness is of the essence. There are times when the process needs to be quick because the situation warrants it. However, I find it unfair that anyone would want to deal with these types of cases as quickly as possible. An individual whose trial is rushed will have a criminal record forever.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on whether the hon. member is fit for a military career. I can comment on whether he is fit for a hockey career, and certainly on that score, the Montreal Canadiens could use his shooting skills, but possibly not his skating skills.

The hon. member's party voted against Bill C-15 at second reading. It submitted 22 amendments, all of which were defeated, filibustered the bill and voted against the bill at committee. Now members have made quite a number of half-hearted speeches.

I actually agree with the content of the hon. member's speech. I do not quite understand how, after voting for all of this period of time and speaking against the bill, and in some instances quite eloquently, they have now decided to support the bill.

I wonder if he could enlighten us as to their thinking.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his kind words regarding my skills. For the record, I do not plan on embarking upon any new careers. For the time being, I will focus on my work here and dedicate my time to trying to foil the defence.

That said, we certainly worked very hard on this bill, particularly at the committee stage, where we presented 22 amendments and five subamendments, and we managed to score a victory.

The issue of criminal records is something that we are extremely concerned about. We have been talking about it since the very beginning of the process, even before Bill C-15 came along, but we voted against the bill at the time. Now, however, after examining the bill in committee, we scored a victory. We were as fair as possible and we managed to work hard to achieve this success.

My speech focused on the less positive aspects, but generally speaking, the bill is a step in the right direction.

We hope that Parliament will not wait another 10 or 15 years before reviewing military justice again, for that is how long it took this time. If any changes need to be made in the future, because someone sees something wrong, we hope those changes will be made as quickly as possible.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-15, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. This is the second time I have spoken about this bill, because I made another speech during second reading.

It is a privilege to speak to this bill even though, as we have seen today, the other parties seem to think we should be cutting debate short. They are saying that we should not take the time to discuss it since everyone is in favour.

I believe it is important to talk about it, however, so that my constituents will understand what we are voting for and so that I can explain why the NDP voted against the bill at second reading and why we are voting for it now.

Many of my colleagues have said that they have reserve units in their riding. Unfortunately, there are none in my riding; however, many of my friends, acquaintances and family members serve in the Canadian Armed Forces, and I would like to say hello to them today. I would also like to acknowledge the three legions in my region because I think that the work they do is very important, even though they fall under a different department. I am talking about the legions in Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, Lachine and Dorval.

I would like to give some background on this bill. In 2003, the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, Mr. Lamer, issued his report, which contained 88 recommendations and resulted in the current bill. In May 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs also tabled a report, and on October 7, 2011, the first version of this bill was introduced.

What does this bill do? Basically, it provides for greater flexibility in sentencing. This means additional sentencing options including absolute discharges, intermittent sentences and restitution orders. It modifies the limitation period applicable to summary trials. It sets out the Canadian Forces Provost Marshall's duties and functions. Finally, it amends the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff's powers as the final authority in the grievance process.

Today, I will focus on two points, but first, as my colleagues pointed out, I want to say that we will support this bill even though it was a long process. Things happened bit by bit. The minister should have been working on this for the past 10 years. Still, none of this should come as any surprise considering what the minister has done so far. The minister made mistakes with respect to helicopters. He made mistakes in the fiasco involving soldiers in Afghanistan, where some soldiers were paid more than others because of danger pay. Who could forget the F-35 fiasco and the millions of dollars spent on advertising? Clearly, the minister is incompetent, but at least we have a bill that is good enough for us to support.

The reform did not happen fast enough, but we will work with what we have.

We have agreed to vote in favour of this bill because the committee passed an amendment concerning criminal records that was very important to us. That was the focus of my speech at second reading. Under some circumstances, soldiers who committed certain minor offences could end up with a criminal record. A criminal record can close a lot of doors in a person's life. Consider travel. It can be harder to travel to certain countries if one has a criminal record. Some employers want to know whether a potential employee has a criminal record.

I know that soldiers, members of the Canadian Armed Forces, represent rectitude, that they should be role models for everyone and that they should always do the right thing. However, when I see the minor offences that could result in a criminal record, that seems pretty heavy to me.

I am glad that provision was withdrawn. I would like to talk briefly about how that happened. In committee, we proposed 22 amendments and five subamendments. The Liberals did not propose any, and the Conservatives proposed two. The amendments often overlapped, but at second reading, most of my colleagues emphasized their concerns about the issue of criminal records. By the end of the committee stage, we managed to resolve the problem. This is also an excellent example of co-operation, of a bill that can make its way through the legislative process, referred from the House of Commons to a committee and then sent back to the House, while being amended to ensure that all parties can support it.

Unfortunately, we do not see this very often in this Parliament. When I was first elected, I was extremely disappointed to see how hard it is—especially in the current political context of a majority government—to have our voices heard, to share our point of view and move bills forward in the right direction. We want to represent all Canadians. If the government constantly shuts down all debate and ignores others' comments, we are not going to get very far. I would therefore like to thank the government for listening to us—this time—and for supporting our amendment. That is what happened at committee in March.

The second thing I wanted to talk about, which some of my colleagues have already mentioned, is how summary trials work. I would like to read what the Department of National Defence website says about summary trials:

The purpose of summary proceedings is to provide prompt but fair justice in respect of minor service offences and to contribute to the maintenance of military discipline and efficiency, in Canada and abroad, in time of peace or armed conflict.

Summary trials are a very important part of military justice. They were put in place because they work well in the military justice system. One aspect of the bill that I find interesting concerns changes to the duration of summary trials. That is very important. As we mentioned, if we want members of the Canadian Armed Forces to have fair trials for minor offences, the trials cannot be rushed, as my colleague said. If we speed through trials, and people do not have the time to defend themselves properly or to fully present their arguments, the trials will not be as meaningful and may not get to the bottom of things. Therefore, it is very important that we improve this system in order to ensure that it works better and is more fair and just, one of the first things mentioned on our website.

Several elements of the LeSage report were included in the bill. We would have liked a more direct legislative response. The report was submitted to the government in December 2011. It was tabled and presented to the House on June 8, 2012. There was a six-month interval. I really mean it when I say that the reforms are piecemeal. We would have appreciated a more direct legislative response. I understand that the bill refers to the report, but we could have done more.

In closing, I want to quote at least two people who support our position. I will only quote one as I have little time left. At least two people supported our position.

I am referring to Glenn Stannard, Chair of the Military Police Complaints Commission, a key player. In February, he said:

As far as the commission is aware, there have been no problems with the accountability framework that justify its revocation at this time, and proposed subsection 18.5(3) runs counter to...

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The hon. member for Sherbrooke has the floor for questions and comments.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am even more pleased to have shared my time with the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine because of her wonderful speech.

Still, I will ask her a question about a topic that she may not have had time to fully address. It has to do with protecting the rights of those serving in the Canadian Armed Forces.

What does the member think about those rights? Should they be protected? Should members of the Canadian Forces have the same rights as all other Canadians?

I would like to hear what she has to say about the rights of those who have agreed to serve our country in the Canadian Forces.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Sherbrooke for his question and flattering remarks.

There is no question that members of the Canadian Armed Forces should have the same rights as everyone else. I cannot disagree with that. I am also surprised to see how many people think that those serving Canada in the forces do so in conflict zones abroad. Actually, they also carry out many peace and humanitarian missions. I commend them for that.

Clearly, there is no question that their rights should be at least as good as the rights of every other Canadian.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-15 does not deal with the issue of rights for counsel for summary appeals. There is no right to an appeal. No transcript is kept. On the other hand, in other forms of justice systems that is allowed to take place. Could she provide an explanation as to why she does not believe those types of needs are good for our military personnel?

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

I used the interpretation system and the question was not quite clear. Could I have an extra 30 seconds so that the member can repeat the question? It did not come through very well.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. Apparently there was a problem with the translation. Is the translation of English to French working now?

Is the interpretation from French to English working as well?

Maybe the member for Winnipeg North could restate the question very quickly.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there are concerns in regard to the summary “appeals”, no right to counsel, no right to appeal, no transcript — or summary “trial”, sorry. Does the member believe that members of the Canadian Forces should have the same rights that would take place in civil courts?

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for allowing my colleague from Winnipeg North to restate his question.

In fact, summary trials are specific to the military justice system. This system works for the forces. It was developed for the forces. If we want to revisit the fact that military personnel are not entitled to counsel or a transcript, perhaps we should consider the issue in greater depth. At this point, they are not entitled to those things. This is the way things are. Yes, military personnel are entitled to the same rights. Perhaps we should change things so that they can have access to counsel and have a transcript. However, I wanted to express the view that, if at least there were no longer any limitation period, this would be a step in the right direction.

Regarding the recommendations made by Justice LeSage, yes, there should have been a more comprehensive review of the reform package. As I have said on many occasions, things happened bit by bit, in a piecemeal fashion. Perhaps there should be a more comprehensive review in order to have a reform that covers all the issues. At that point, we could perhaps allow transcripts or change some of the procedures in summary trials.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise to speak to Bill C-15. The other day I had the opportunity to say a few words prior to its coming to third reading. It is always a pleasure to share some thoughts and ideas and provide comments on the important issue of military justice versus civilian justice.

I would like to start off, as I have done in the past, by indicating that I had the privilege and honour of serving in the Canadian Forces for a number of years. I was posted to Edmonton. The Griesbach and Lancaster Park is located in Edmonton. The military jail is located in Griesbach. The jail was quickly pointed out to us. Fortunately I never had to use the facility other than to visit it. However, I have an interest in this area.

I have been trying to follow the debate today. The NDP has been all over the map on the issue. I came in this morning shortly after 10 o'clock when the debate had just started. The Minister of National Defence and the NDP House leader were here. It was if they were coming together, and it is not the first time. I instantly had a flashback to the anger moment when the leader of the official opposition was quite upset and the Minister of National Defence had to walk over and possibly prevented a fight because of the anger issue within the New Democratic Party—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. The hon. member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord is rising on a point of order.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that the language used by my Liberal colleague is unworthy of his office. He should choose more appropriate words to describe what goes on in the House, so that he does not use language that is almost unparliamentary.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

I was momentarily distracted and did not hear exactly what was said. However, I will use the opportunity to remind all hon. members to reference their colleagues with the respect they are due.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that I did not use any unparliamentary language. I was reminiscing about something that took place here.

It was nice to see this morning that there was affection, once again, between the New Democrats and the Conservatives on this bill, Bill C-15. In fact, as has been pointed out, there was a time when the NDP opposed Bill C-15, to the degree that it voted against it going to second reading. Liberals were actually quite open-minded about it. We had suggested that we should wait to see what took place at the committee stage, recognizing the value that could potentially be gained on the government side.

Then the bill went to committee. I understand that the New Democrats made in excess of 20 amendments. I believe that is what members have said time and time again. What they do not say is that they were blanked out. Not one amendment passed from the New Democratic caucus. Then—

[Jamie Nicholls]

That is not true.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

That is not true? Did any NDP amendments pass in committee?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Not that I recollect.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

They might want to check the committee records, Mr. Speaker. If there is one, they have 10 or 15 minutes to maybe explain exactly which amendment of theirs passed.

I know that a couple of Conservative amendments passed. There has been a different style of government ever since this Reform-Conservative government came into power. Unless they are Conservative amendments, they do not typically pass. We have seen that. Liberals have introduced well over 1,000 amendments. The Conservatives do not like to pass opposition amendments. They have their own agenda. It is very difficult. At times, there may be a bit of a bend here and there, but not beyond that.

The New Democratic Party members ultimately voted no in committee on the legislation itself. Something happened in between. I suspect it may have been the opposition House leader working with the Minister of National Defence, because they have a good working relationship, as I pointed out at the beginning of my comments. Now they are happy and are supporting it and are taking turns taking shots at the Liberal Party in the House, because it is actually taking a principled stand on the legislation and is saying that there are serious issues. We are not prepared to do what the NDP has done and abandon them. We believe that we should seriously look at voting against it.

I would like, and I say it somewhat tongue in cheek, the NDP to revisit the issue. As best I can tell, it is voting in favour of the government's bill today because of the issue of minor offences. Whereas an individual who committed a minor offence could have ended up with a criminal record, the government has minimized it by way of an amendment it brought to the House of Commons. As a result, it has garnered the support of the New Democratic Party. That is an important issue.

When we look at the legislation as a whole, there are some positive things being done in Bill C-15. Liberals do not question them. However, there is a very serious issue, which the government has refused to look at. I made reference to it when I posed my question a few minutes ago. I said that I was a member of the Canadian Forces. I always considered myself a Canadian first and foremost, as all members of the Canadian Forces see themselves. At the end of the day, we would all like to think that they have a fair system. We recognize that there are discrepancies between military justice and the civil justice system, and we know that in some situations, that has to be the case.

I have cited in the past examples of being at work on time. There is a much stiffer penalty in military discipline with respect to showing up late or missing a day or two. If they miss a day, they could be accused of going AWOL, and there is a huge consequence for doing that. In the civil service, it is quite different. Within the private sector, it is quite different.

We recognize the need to allow that difference, but we should be trying to narrow the gap wherever we can so that we have a system that is fair. I believe that the NDP has missed the boat, or has maybe jumped out of the boat, on the issue of fairness in dealing with individuals who are members of the Canadian Forces.

At committee, Justice Létourneau spoke eloquently, I thought. He said that soldiers are citizens and should enjoy the same constitutional charter rights as all Canadians. He stated:

We as a society have forgotten, with harsh consequences for the members of the armed forces, that a soldier is before all a Canadian citizen, a Canadian citizen in uniform. So is a police officer...but he's not deprived of his right to a jury trial. Is that what we mean by “equality of all before the law”? Is not the soldier who risks his life for us entitled to at least the same rights and equality before the law as his fellow citizens when he is facing criminal prosecutions?

He then answers the question by saying that yes, it is.

Another presentation was made by Michel Drapeau, a distinguished Canadian. He served in the Canadian Forces brilliantly, I must say. He is actually a retired colonel. I think it is important to take note of some of the things he said in committee.

Again, I will quote directly what the retired colonel said:

...someone accused before summary trial has no right to appeal either the verdict or the sentence. This is despite the fact that the verdict and the sentence are imposed without any regard to the minimum standards of procedural rights in criminal proceedings, such as the right to counsel, the presence of rules of evidence, and the right to appeal.

He continues:

In Canada, these rights do not exist in summary trials, not even for the decorated veteran, yet a Canadian charged with a summary conviction offence in civilian court, such as Senator Patrick Brazeau, enjoys all of these rights. So does someone appearing in a small claims court or in a traffic court.

I find it very odd that those who put their lives at risk to protect the rights of Canadians are themselves deprived of some of these charter rights when facing a quasi-criminal process with a possibility of loss of liberty through detention in a military barracks.

To me, this is one of the underlying principles of the legislation. It is something to which we should all be giving special attention. Do we want the fairness provided to the civilians to be provided to individuals who put on our military attire?

As someone who has been a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, I would have liked to have seen that sort of system in place.

I cannot say how many times I have sat here and listened to New Democratic members of Parliament talk about how legislation is not perfect, so they are voting against it. They say that if it goes to committee, it needs to be made good. If it has to be amended, they will make amendments. If the government does not pass the amendments and it is not perfect legislation, they will not support it.

I have asked questions about that. I have challenged the opposition members and asked if they would support legislation if, on balance, it was good but there were some issues they had problems with. The wonderful thing about Hansard is that we can look at it. Time and time again, they say no, they want perfect legislation.

That is not what we are seeing here today. This is not perfect legislation by any stretch of the imagination. There is a need for us to make some changes to the legislation. In many pieces of legislation, one would find that there is a need to make amendments. We already know what the government is going to do with amendments. If it is not one of its amendments, it will not pass.

In many cases, we attempt to bring forward amendments. In other cases, we hope and have faith that the government will do the right thing. In this situation, the government has not chosen to do the right thing. That is unfortunate.

This is legislation that has been before the House before. The government talks about having 100 members of Parliament who have spoken to it. It has spent time in committee. Through the years, the government has failed to bring in the legislation. They have to take responsibility for it not always passing. An example is that the government chose to prorogue a session, something that had a huge, negative reaction from the Canadian population. That killed the bill.

Whether it is elections or the proroguing of sessions, the government has not been successful in bringing forward this legislation in a timely fashion.

It has also demonstrated that it does not recognize the importance of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, our Constitution and fairness in our justice system when it comes to our military personnel.

A number of changes are being proposed in Bill C-15. It would provide security of tenure for military judges. It would allow for the appointment of part-time military judges. It would outline sentencing objectives and principles. It would amend the composition of the court martial panel according to rank. It would change the name from the Canadian Forces Grievance Board to the military grievances external review committee.

In fact, there were even some amendments brought forward from the government that ultimately passed. They dealt with an issue I made reference to yesterday.

The idea of giving someone a criminal record for something that took place while they were serving in the military in relatively minor situations is just unfair. We needed to see some changes on that front.

We are glad that the government has seen the light, at least in part, on that issue. It is exceptionally difficult, when individuals go for an interview, after serving x number of years, whether it is three years, eight years or whatever it might be, in the forces, during which time one day they were a little upset and used some profanity toward their superior officer, and a profound disciplinary action was taken.

Let us compare that to civilian life. In the military life, that could actually lead to a criminal conviction. They would not even have had the opportunity to see a transcript or to appeal the decision in a summary trial. We have to think of the consequences of that. Those individuals now go out into civilian life, and because of that moment of stress, anxiety, pressure or whatever it might be, when a question is posed on the application about whether they have a criminal record...we have to think about that outcome.

That is the reason there was a need for change. Having said that, I really believe that when we talk about summary trials, what is really at the crux of it is the idea that someone does not have a right to counsel, does not have a right an appeal and there is no transcript.

We are not saying we have to go it alone; other countries in the world have moved in that direction. One could ask the question, why not Canada?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, now let us get this straight.

For decades in the 20th century, we had a summary trial system. Under Liberal governments, it was seen as constitutional, and indeed legal in every respect, a model to the world.

After 1982, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was entrenched in our Constitution. We had Liberal governments for about 20 years at that time, the better part of two decades. The Liberal Party of Canada saw summary trials as they existed in our unreformed National Defence Act as constitutionally legal.

Fast forward to 2003 and the Lamer report, which recognized summary trials as legal and constitutional, but recommended some modifications, some updating of the National Defence Act. The Liberals did not act on that for three years.

From 2006 to now, Liberals, as they are today, blocked every attempt to make these amendments, but on the final stage of third reading of the fourth attempt to bring these changes in, they decided that summary trials were no longer constitutional and legal.

Does the Liberal Party simply not have a position, or has it changed its position 180°, and if so, why?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, things change through time. There will be a time on this particular government, I must say. Having said that, the hon. member made reference to the 2003 report to the minority government. There were in fact efforts made toward changing the system.

The member is saying that it has been debated enough inside the chamber, and even though the Liberal Party might be right, it does not matter. He saying that we should all just give a good, big, group hug, support it and pass the legislation. That is the mentality that the member is a proponent of.

I would suggest that the bill itself is fundamentally flawed because you have not, and you could have, in fact, improved the bill. You or the government—