Debates of May 30th, 2013

Safer Witnesses Act

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is quite right. The issue of a conflict of interest came out of the recommendations made following the Air India tragedy.

As I said, we have confidence in the members of the RCMP, and we thank them for the excellent work they do every day. In a society based on law, justice and democracy, it is important that we have measures to ensure accountability and a degree of transparency. In this case, it is very important.

We protect witnesses who are often criminals as well. Sometimes they are members of street gangs or organized crime. We have to be very careful to have the mechanisms we need to avoid conflicts of interest. I believe that this serves us well and that it is good for the legal system, which the bill is trying to improve.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to talk on Bill C-51, the safer witnesses act.

I thank all of my colleagues across the House for their interventions, and of course I thank the NDP members for supporting this bill. I think some of their arguments are flawed, but they are supporting it, and that is tremendous.

I would like to share with members why I support Bill C-51 and why my constituents and community organizations in Etobicoke Centre support it. I will also share why I think it represents an important step forward in making the protection of witnesses an effective and relevant program for our country today and for law enforcement in the future.

I have two police divisions in my riding, 22 division and 23 division of the metro Toronto Police Service. I discussed Bill C-51 with Staff Sergeant Doug MacDonald of 22 division today, and he told me something rather interesting. He said that the public are the eyes and ears of the police.

The TV shows on police forensic investigators, and other shows of that type, are often misleading and give the public the wrong perception of how forensic evidence can be linked to a perpetrator. In the course of an hour, the show will depict a major forensic investigation being done, or the police all on their own linking a perpetrator to a particular crime, but that is not always the way it works.

A lot of the forensic evidence is most certainly there, but often the police are not able to take that one further step to definitively link the evidence to the perpetrator, because we are a country of rule of law. Before a person can be charged for a crime, the police have to be absolutely sure they have the right person. Often they may know it in their heart of hearts, but without the public stepping forward, without witnesses coming forward, they have a very difficult time in achieving that. Therefore, this act would be hugely important in solving those cases by giving the confidence to the public and witnesses to step forward and provide the testimony to put serious criminals away and safeguard our streets and communities.

I have to give a shout out to the metro Toronto Police Service. They are outstanding under Chief William Blair. Also, I think this House would like to note that the Toronto Police Service sends 10 officers abroad every year to serve as mentors and police liaisons in very dangerous places around the world, such as Afghanistan, to help bring the rule of law to those people in those lands. I thank the metro Toronto Police Service for doing that.

Our government is committed to ensuring the safety and security of constituents in Etobicoke Centre, but unfortunately violence does occur. In 2011, Toronto had 86 homicide victims. On July 5, 2012, Abdulle Elmi was killed in a hail of gunfire in a quiet street in my riding, and it was believed he was a member of the gang Sic Thugs. Community organizations, not wanting to see any more bloodshed, advocated for strengthened witness protection programs. Our government listened and we have acted.

As we have heard in the interventions during the debate, this bill would make important amendments to the Witness Protection Program Act, which has been in place since 1996. Since then, Canada's witness protection program has served our police services well and has forged many new identities for those who have risked much to see justice through to the end.

However, as time passed, the witness protection program has proven to be in need of fine-tuning. It is a program that serves us well, but it could work better, and my constituents agree with that. It is a program that needs to adapt to our changing environment to better protect those who come forward and those who protect them, and this bill would do just that.

This proposed legislation acts on a number of recommendations that have come forward based on some key and tragic events in our history. Sources include, for example, the 2008 study by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, the 2010 Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India Flight 182 and stakeholder consultations with federal departments and agencies, the provinces and law enforcement agencies.

I would like to focus my time here today on how this proposed legislation would address the concerns that we have heard from federal and provincial stakeholders as well as my own constituents, community organizations and other stakeholders in Etobicoke Centre whom I have spoken to on this important matter, such as Staff Sergeant Doug MacDonald, who, of course, was an operator in all of this.

Bill C-51 would make the witness protection program more balanced and secure by allowing for a more seamless co-operation among law enforcement services and going beyond jurisdictions.

The federal program differs somewhat compared with the programs currently administered in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. If there is a need for a witness to be referred to the federal program, that decision rests with the particular law enforcement agency dealing with a specific case. That means provinces have jurisdiction over their cases and can select and use their own good judgment in being able to bring these cases to the RCMP, if required.

What is consistent among all programs is they are adaptable, allowing decisions to made, as I said, case by case, factoring all the key information, such as the costs involved, the resources available, the level of threat to the witness, and the time needed to appropriately afford protection and safety to those individuals in need. In, for example, complex federal cases, provinces can decide whether to refer witnesses to federal authorities for admission in the federal witness protection program. One area that has consistently been raised by provincial stakeholders is the need to streamline the current process for obtaining secure identity changes for protectees in provincial programs.

Let me share an example of that, and how the bill would improve how jurisdictions could work together across this country.

When it comes to secure identity changes and federal documents required, we have heard from provinces that the RCMP currently assists only those protectees under federal jurisdiction.

The way this is currently set up means that the provinces must temporarily admit their protectee into the federal witness protection program in order for the RCMP to assist in the process. By doing this, and provincial stakeholders have been very clear on this point, the process can slow down and create time-consuming paperwork and delays that in fact could put lives at risk. What that can also lead to is then a lack of co-operation by witnesses, because it may cause a lack of confidence in the system. People would be afraid and not step forward; crimes would go unsolved. That is an outcome that we do not want.

We can all imagine that when it comes to something as significant as a secure identity change, further delay could cause undue stress and hardship, as I said, for those in need of protection, not to mention those brave individuals on our police forces who are trying very hard to safeguard our communities.

Now, the changes of Bill C-51 would improve federal and provincial collaboration. That is something that has come up time and again this evening. Designated provinces would no longer need to have their witnesses entered into the federal program and would retain decisions on who to protect and how. Bill C-51 would help improve the way jurisdictions work together, with a new framework that would allow for provincial witness protection programs to be officially designated.

This new framework would allow the provincial authority to make a request to the federal Minister of Public Safety. An official designation would then allow the province to ask that the RCMP assist it in obtaining the necessary federal documents required for a secure identity change for a provincial witness. This would eliminate the need to first admit the witness into the federal program.

Furthermore, an official designation would only need to take place that one time. It would streamline the whole process. It would be quicker, it would be safer, it would be faster and we would get convictions.

We have also heard statements by the provinces asking that the RCMP be removed from the process so that the provinces could request secure identity documents directly from federal departments. However, let us remember that these are not always simple cases and witness protection is not a typical program. These cases affect an individual's very identity and his or her personal security. I believe that the RCMP needs to play a central role in this, and a key role in this, and act as a single point of contact in order to protect the operational security of this program.

As they say, too many fingers in the pie and we could ruin that pie.

By doing so, our federal police service would add a level of security that would allow for the efficiency and consistency in cases that can be, and often are, very complex.

Balancing the safety of protectees with the needs of those administering the program is a key feature of Bill C-51. That is why I am here today, to show my support for these important changes.

It also proposes changes to prohibitions on disclosure. Bill C-51 proposes changes for designated programs, such that the prohibitions of disclosure would be extended to provincial witness protection information; the means and methods of provincial witness protection programs; as well as information about those who provide protection. This prohibition would apply across Canada.

I would like to urge all our hon. members to support Bill C-51. This is an act that is in need of change right now because, as all countries do, we have evolved as a nation. We have evolved to the point, especially in our law enforcement, where these changes are required. I think all members of the House have already stated they do support this bill at the end of the day. For those on the opposition benches who may still be troubled by it, I encourage them to support the bill because it would help the people most in need and it would help our law agencies to do their best job.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member.

Bill C-51 does not contain any provisions that would allow an independent organization to administer the program in accordance with the recommendations made in the Air India investigation report.

As a result, the RCMP will continue to be responsible for the program, which could put it in a conflict of interest, because it will be both the investigating body and the one to decide who benefits from protection.

Does my hon. colleague have anything to add in that regard? Does he intend to take that recommendation into account?

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this has been an expanded program as well, so it would allow the federal institutions that have a role in national security, national defence or public safety to make referrals to the RCMP for possible admission. Of course it allows, on a case-by-case basis, those related foreign agencies to make submissions to the RCMP, in that we have arrangements and MOUs with them.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I know that both Chief of Police Rick Hanson, in my own riding of Calgary Centre, and the former justice minister were calling for some of the changes that were made in this bill. One of their concerns in particular was that we need stronger protection to make sure we can catch bad guys, especially so that people who are eyewitnesses will come forward.

Could my hon. colleague tell us what would this do for witnesses, for bringing forward the people who can help the police solve crimes?

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I discussed this today with Staff Sergeant Doug MacDonald at 22 Division of the Toronto Police Service. He told me quite clearly that he is looking forward to its passage. In Etobicoke generally—Etobicoke North, Etobicoke Centre and Etobicoke Lakeshore—there have been some serious crimes and serious gang crimes perpetrated right across those areas. Often what is preventing the solution to those crimes is witnesses lacking the courage to step forward and provide testimony. He is convinced that the new provisions in this act would provide the confidence for those witnesses involved to step forward, be assured of their security and help the police put some bad guys away and solve a lot of cases.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member for Etobicoke Centre's speech. He raised some very interesting points.

I would like to know what he thinks about the testimony that Alok Mukherjee gave in committee on March 19 of this year.

He is the President of the Canadian Association of Police Boards. He stated:

Our conclusion has been that there needs to be more funding available than currently is the case. Without the availability of sufficient funding, our ability to take advantage of the program will be limited.

What are your comments on that?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

I have no comments on that. However, I am sure the hon. member for Etobicoke Centre would like to respond.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if my hon. friend reads the testimony of the other police forces as well, this individual seems to be somewhat in the minority in that respect because much of this is an enhanced program. As we heard from one of the other hon. colleagues, the province, the federal government and municipalities have a funding formula that they work out.

In the case of the RCMP, it feels that it has enough resources. I know through my own time in the military when things like this came up, not an exact template, often there would be administrative changes with respect to the way we operated and the way we conducted the procedures, but that does not often come with a price tag.

I think all levels of government would be able to review this as the bill is passed and goes forward and, if there are any changes down the road, those levels of government could reallocate funds that are downloaded from the federal government.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to speak about Bill C-51, something that I am genuinely concerned about.

This bill contains measures that have long been called for by the NDP. It proposes a better process to support provincial witness protection programs. It applies the program to other agencies with responsibilities for national security. The bill will broaden the eligibility criteria for the protection program to include repentant members of street gangs who are willing to testify against others in their gang.

Federal departments and agencies that have a national security and public safety mandate may also suggest witnesses for the program. The bill will extend the emergency protection period and will eliminate a number of technical problems relating to the coordination of provincial programs. It is a necessary bill, and one that addresses flaws that were identified a long time ago.

The NDP has been demanding the expansion of witness eligibility for protection programs for nearly two decades now.

In 1996, this House passed the Witness Protection Program Act. In 1999, the NDP voted for Bill C-223 to broaden witness protection in cases of domestic violence. This bill was overturned by the then Liberal majority.

Since then, the fundamental issues of eligibility, coordination and funding have never been dealt with by Canada’s successive governments.

Since 2007, members of the NDP have been calling for changes to be made to the witness protection program. It has taken the Conservatives six years to finally respond to our requests.

The issue is real, however. Close relatives and the various stakeholders have said for a long time now that the program must be expanded. In May 2010, the RCMP submitted a report to the Minister of Public Safety in which it asked that the witness protection program be strengthened.

As we know, in order to fight back against investigations into their activities, street gangs have no qualms about intimidating the families of witnesses. They want to stop witnesses from speaking out against them. Street gangs are very violent and quick to use intimidation to avoid going to jail.

Members of street gangs are afraid of speaking out against their accomplices, because they know they will not be protected. However, in cases involving street gangs, the best witnesses are gang members themselves. Members of street gangs who want to get out of crime and are willing to testify against their associates must be allowed into the witness protection program.

My colleagues have pointed this out on a number of occasions this year. I repeat it again this evening. In 2012, only 30 of the 108 applications for protection were accepted. The program served only 30% of those who were asking for help.

Bill C-51 will solve this particular issue, because it raises the level of protection for witnesses and informants who assist our police officers, in addition to expanding the use of these information sources. We will be able to fight directly against street gangs, which are becoming ever more common in Canada’s suburbs.

That is not all. If the Conservatives really want to improve the witness protection program, they must also commit the money for it to happen. It is fine to talk about protecting victims in order to appeal to voters, but the government needs to walk the walk.

I would like to remind the House that it costs $300,000 to protect each witness. If the definition of “witness” is expanded, as Bill C-51 aims to do, we will be sticking taxpayers with a bigger bill.

We support the bill, but we condemn the fact that the Conservative government has refused to commit additional funding.

Once again, it will be up to the municipalities and police forces to absorb the higher costs. They already have tight budgets. The commissioner of the Canadian Association of Police Boards said this on March 7:

...sometimes the cost of protecting witnesses hinders the investigations, especially for small law enforcement agencies that have a tight budget.

She also said this:

[The government must] ensure that legislation passed...does not result in a downloading of additional costs to the municipal police services that we represent.

The government cut nearly $190 million from the RCMP and more than $140 million from the Canada Border Services Agency. Investigations into drugs and crime in areas of federal jurisdiction are handled by the RCMP. However, the RCMP bills local police forces for the cost of protecting witnesses even though the local forces often cannot afford it.

Recently, the Conservatives announced that they would no longer fund recruiting programs for local police forces. A $400 million envelope was earmarked for the police officers recruitment fund, but the Conservatives decided not to renew it for 2013. That is appalling. These cuts will impact how effective Bill C-51 can be.

I commend the intention behind this bill. However, I hope that the federal government will allocate a significant budget to this bill and not make the municipalities and provinces cover the cost. The government is certainly not short on money: it gives $1.2 billion a year to the oil sands industry and forked out $70 million to celebrate the war of 1812. I want to remind the government that it has a responsibility to ensure that its laws do not increase the burden on the provinces.

In closing, although I am not happy about the lack of funding, I think that strengthening the witness protection program will improve public safety. After so many years, we are pleased that the government is finally making the changes that we have been calling for.

I therefore support Bill C-51 at third reading so that it can be passed. I support it on behalf of all the people, agencies and associations that want this bill passed. I am supporting this bill so that those who want to blow the whistle and testify can do so without fearing for their safety and that of their families. Bill C-51 will allow them to be better protected. I also hope that the government will increase the budget so that the municipalities will not have to foot the bill.

The NDP is once again building safer communities by giving the police more tools to help them fight street gangs and organized crime.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like my colleague to tell us about the government's lack of will to enforce the law. It is all well and good to pass legislation, but the government must ensure that it can be enforced on the ground.

The following appears on the RCMP's website:

There are instances when the costs of witness protection may impede investigations, particularly for smaller law enforcement agencies.

Indeed, even the RCMP's website mentions the funding problem. Would my hon. colleague comment on the fact that enforcing the law and passing legislation in Parliament are two completely different things?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her question, which as always is very pertinent.

In the case of Air India, the commissioner lamented the fact that the RCMP had a problem with accountability. However, there is also the problem of funding, or should I say underfunding. The RCMP delivers the witness protection program, but passes the bill for it on to the municipalities, which are already overwhelmed.

In my riding, there are about 40 small municipalities. I know that they work very hard to balance their budgets and they are unable to do so because of this kind of thing.

In addition, because my riding borders on Vermont, I know that a pilot project is being carried out to replace border services officers with automated crossings.

This is not something that is going to solve the crime problem in Quebec and in Canada.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that is troubling to the official opposition is the fact that the government has not adopted the recommendations of the Air India commission, and I believe the member mentioned this.

The commission recommended the creation of a new position, the national security witness protection coordinator, to be independent of the police and prosecution and be a person who inspires public confidence and has experience in criminal justice, national security and witness protection matters.

I wonder if the member could speak to that and to why we support that recommendation.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her question.

The Air India Commission recommended that there be more transparency and greater accountability. As one of my colleagues said in an earlier speech, there is often an underlying conflict of interest. The RCMP often wears two hats: it conducts investigations and it provides witness protection services. To promote greater accountability, the government must heed the Air India Commission's recommendation.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to discuss Bill C-51, the safer witnesses act. Witness protection is one of the most important tools law enforcement has at its disposal to combat criminal activity. An effective witness protection program is particularly valuable in the fight against organized crime and terrorism.

Witness protection has been informally available in Canada since the 1970s to protect persons who are deemed to be at risk because they provided assistance to law enforcement or because they provided testimony in criminal matters. The testimony or co-operation of these individuals can be vital to the success of law enforcement operations. In 1996, the Witness Protection Program Act officially established the federal witness protection program in an effort to ensure consistency in protection practices across Canada and, at the same time, to establish greater accountability. While the witness protection program is serving the criminal justice system well, it has not been changed significantly since 1996.

In the last 17 years, crime, and specifically organized crime, has evolved substantially and is now more global than ever in nature. The safer witnesses act, which we are discussing today, would help to further strengthen the federal witness protection program and help to ensure it is appropriate to meet the ever-evolving nature of crime. Administrated by the RCMP, this program provides a gamut of protective measures. These can range from temporary protective services to relocation with a name change.

The RCMP is required by statute to use a number of criteria to assess if an individual should be placed in the program. For example, this includes examining the risk to the witness and taking into consideration the danger to the community if the person were to be admitted into the program. It includes looking into the nature of the inquiry and the importance of the witness in the matter. The criteria also include taking into consideration the value of the information and evidence to be given by the witness and the likelihood the witness can adjust to the program.

In addition, factors such as the cost of maintaining the witness in the program and alternate methods of protection available and other factors deemed to be relevant are all taken into account. Currently, there are approximately 800 protectees in the federal witness protection program, and new persons are admitted into the program every year. Admission numbers fluctuate yearly due to changes such as the number of cases being investigated or the size of the witnesses' families.

Of note, there were more than 100 cases referred for admission into the federal witness protection program in 2011-2012 alone. Of those cases, 30 individuals were accepted into the program, with 23 of these individuals being granted a secure identity change. The difference between the number of referrals and the number accepted in the program is stems from various reasons. Some candidates may decide they are not interested in the program, while others may not meet all the criteria outlined, but rest assured that the individuals requiring protection will receive it.

Provincial governments are responsible for the administration of justice. The Provinces of Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have established their own witness protection programs, which differ from the federal program. These provincial programs provide a range of valuable services in support of those at risk. The interaction between provincial programs and the federal program, however, has not always been as efficient as it could be. For example, a protectee in a provincial program must now be admitted temporarily to the federal witness protection program in order to obtain the federal documents for a secure identity change. This can sometimes lead to delays in the process of securely obtaining new identities.

Bill C-51 aims to remedy this situation. It proposes to establish a process whereby provincial programs can become designated witness protection programs. The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Public Safety, would have the authority to make this designation at the request of the provincial authority. It would then no longer be necessary for witnesses to be temporarily admitted to the federal program to obtain federal identity documents for secure identity change.

Moreover, the provincial designation regime proposed in Bill C-51 would further streamline the process for obtaining federal identity documents. This would be achieved through a process whereby the provincial official representing a designated provincial witness protection program would then be the single point of contact for that program. The official can request federal identity documents from the RCMP, which would be the single federal point of contact. A provincial official acting on behalf of all law enforcement agencies within the designated program would limit the number of persons involved in the request to the RCMP, thus streamlining the process. Fewer individuals involved in the process would also ensure that it is more secure.

Another way that Bill C-51 would strengthen the security of witness protection regimes in Canada would be through changes to the current prohibitions against the disclosure of information.

The disclosure of information about the location and change of identity of protectees in the federal witness protection program is prohibited by the Witness Protection Program Act. Bill C-51 proposes to expand on this and prohibits the disclosure of information of individuals who provide or assist in providing protection for witnesses, as well as how the program operates. These prohibitions will also extend to designated provincial programs. This means that the disclosure of information regarding witnesses, the people who provide protection and information about the designated provincial programs themselves will be prohibited.

Bill C-51 also specifies that no one shall disclose any information, either directly or indirectly, that reveals the location or change of identity of a protected person or the information from which the location or change of identity may be inferred. Disclosing information directly could include situations such as telling someone that a protected person's name is whatever. Disclosing information indirectly could include leaving information about the protected person unguarded.

C-51 also seeks to expand the categories of witnesses who may be referred for admission into the federal witness protection program to include persons who assist federal departments, agencies or services that have national security, national defence or public safety mandates and who may require protection as a result.

As chair of the Standing Committee on National Defence, our committee often hears about acts of terrorism, acts of war by a government on its own people, people who witness genocide, acts of war and terrorism. These people often require protection. They could be somebody who is employed by the Department of National Defence or they could be members of the Canadian Armed Forces. They could be fearful for their lives because so many foreign states and the leaders of those states have the ability to implement assassinations. Therefore, these individuals would be intimidated from ever testifying in a court in Canada or in an international court such as the Hague, where it tries so many war crimes.

Expanding the category of witnesses who are eligible also addresses one of this government's commitments under the 2010 Air India inquiry action plan. In terms of funding, the federal witness protection program is currently funded from the RCMP's existing operational resources. That would continue under Bill C-51. Because the system is more efficient, it would not require any extra resources.

In conclusion, Bill C-51 addresses a number of operational issues based on experiences gained in administrating the current program over the past 15 years. It would modernize the Witness Protection Program Act, improve interactions between the federal and provincial witness protection programs and ensure better protection of information.

Bill C-51 responds to many of the needs of provincial and territorial governments and to the needs of law enforcement officials and other stakeholders involved in the criminal justice system.

By building on our efforts to combat organized crime and terrorist activities, Bill C-51 would help us continue to fulfill our commitment to build safer streets and communities for all Canadians.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on April 5, the Barreau du Québec sent a letter to the Minister of Justice. The letter is easy to find, since it has been made public.

The letter contained recommendations, including an amendment to Bill C-51 in relation to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I will list a few of them.

These questions have to do with the terms for lifting the protection granted to witnesses, the circumstances that allow an individual to maintain that he or someone else has always had the same identity, and the disclosure and communication of confidential information in relation to the witness with the right of the accused to make a full answer in defence, in accordance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Were the Barreau du Québec's recommendations to the Minister of Justice taken into consideration?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the committee and the government considered all these things when designing the bill, when we had testimony. There were a number of great testimonies at committee. One of the quotes that is quite relevant is from the British Columbia assistant deputy minister, Mr. Pecknold, who said:

Based on our analysis, the amendments in Bill C-51 appear responsive to the specific needs of law enforcement in British Columbia and to the issues raised by our partners and stakeholders, including the broadening of the disclosure prohibition to include information on the program's methods for providing protection, extension of the emergency period beyond 90 days, and a process for voluntary termination.

Definitely the Province of B.C. at committee was very satisfied with the bill and with everything that was included in it. We know that on the information the amendments would authorize disclosure of otherwise prohibited information for the purpose of providing protection to a protectee and for matters relating to national security or national defence. Other exemptions would permit federal and provincial institutions to share prohibited information for the purpose of public safety or the administration of justice. Therefore, it is about co-operation and cohesiveness of the systems across Canada.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to hear my colleague across speak. I miss being at committee with him. He was a fabulous chair.

However, I noticed that my hon. friend did not fully quote the representative from the British Columbia ministry of justice, who also advised the committee that he would be watching carefully to ensure the program was appropriately funded and that they had a voice in the level of funding. He said that from this perspective, the program would not be effective and efficiently administered unless it was adequately funded and the costs were not downloaded to municipalities.

Could the member speak to that?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the committee heard from a number of different witnesses, including the RCMP. The assistant commissioner from the RCMP in charge of federal and international operations said, “As a result of the designation regime” and the way the program is going to work “the RCMP will deal directly with the designated official for the provincial witness protection program”. He said, “This will promote efficiencies in services provided to the provinces and will further enhance the security of both the federal and the provincial program”.

Because of the gains and the efficiencies that are inherent in Bill C-51, there will be a savings that will be able to fund all the concerns that have been raised by the different provincial partners.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure this evening to speak to the safer witnesses act. As members may know by now, it is a product of extensive input from knowledgeable parties across the country. Indeed, I am pleased to note that the proposed legislation has earned plaudits from several provinces and law enforcement agencies. This positive reaction speaks volumes about the thoroughness and timeliness of Bill C-51.

Members may recall that in March 2008, the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security produced a review of the witness protection program. The government responded in July of that year. The review was certainly a key reference document for the policymakers who developed Bill C-51.

For my part in today's debate, I would like to identify how the proposed legislation responds to the review's nine recommendations.

The committee heard from many witnesses who stated unequivocally that the federal witness protection program was an essential tool in the fight against serious crime, organized crime and terrorism. Nevertheless, witnesses had some concerns, including four recommendations to promote greater fairness and efficiency in the management of the program.

First, the committee recommended moving the witness protection program out of the RCMP's hands and into an independent office within the Department of Justice. Through its own consultations, this government confirmed that the RCMP should continue to manage the witness protection program. For one, the justice department simply does not have the expertise to protect witnesses or deliver the programs; it is not what it does. Moreover, simply the physical moving of the administration of the program to justice could create potential security risks.

This government is embracing the intent of this recommendation, which is to ensure objectivity of witness protection matters. The RCMP is developing a reporting structure that separates its investigative and protective functions.

Second, to ensure a good fit between participants and the program, the committee recommended automatic psychological assessments of candidates over the age of 18, including family members. The government concurs that not everyone is a good candidate for the witness protection program. The RCMP now has psychologists who assess candidates and offer counselling to both candidates and protectees. I would stress the word “offer” because the decision to accept counselling belongs to candidates and protectees and is not imposed upon them.

The third recommendation is of a similar nature. The committee proposed to automatically offer legal counsel for candidates during negotiations for entry into the witness protection program. The RCMP continues to offer legal counsel to both candidates and protectees. Again, however, legal counsel is offered rather than imposed.

In its fourth recommendation, to improve fairness and efficiency in the witness protection program, the committee called upon the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP, or CPC, to handle complaints from candidates and protectees as required. The government agrees with the intent of this recommendation and, as all hon. members know, we are currently working to pass Bill C-42, the enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police accountability act.

Under that legislation, the CPC would be replaced by a new civilian review and complaints commission. Amendments to the RCMP Act under Bill C-42, would give this new civilian oversight body limited and secure access to information about protectees.

The committee's fifth and sixth recommendations fall under the theme of facilitating access to the witness protection program. The committee called for federal, provincial and territorial ministers for justice and public safety to develop a funding agreement for participation in the witness protection program. It is believed that this recommendation was predicated on a national witness protection program with minimum national standards. Following consultations again, the government did not accept this recommendation. There is no funding in the fiscal framework to support such an agreement.

The sixth recommendation also touches on relationships between and among jurisdictions. It is recommended that the body responsible for the witness protection program enter into agreements with provincial and territorial governments. The goal would be to accelerate the processing of witness protection files.

The government recognizes that in some instances, it can take too long to process secure identity changes for provincial witnesses. That is why it has introduced amendments through Bill C-51 to improve the process, and as such, those proposed agreements are no longer necessary.

The committee's seventh recommendation revolved around establishing minimum standards for the witness protection program. The government considered this idea, but as I indicated earlier, the provinces objected, because the administration of justice falls within their jurisdiction, and national standards were reviewed as an encroachment. Consequently, the government did not accept this recommendation.

The final two recommendations related to promoting transparency within the witness protection program. The committee suggested that independent research into witness protection be permitted and encouraged. I am pleased to say that Public Safety Canada has already undertaken some comparative research. RCMP psychologists may also pursue limited secure research.

While the government agrees on the value of research, it sounds a note of warning. Researchers and risk management experts must take the necessary precautions to maintain the privacy and security of protectees and the program. They must not let their quest for knowledge trump concerns about the release of information.

Finally, the committee recommended more and better information in the annual report of the witness protection program. Since the release of the committee's review, the annual report has, in fact, been enhanced to account more thoroughly for expenses. The Minister of Public Safety reserves the right to request more information at any time, of course.

In summary, the government appreciates the hard work of the standing committee in preparing its review of the witness protection program.

The government consulted stakeholders about nine recommendations and gave them serious consideration in the preparation of Bill C-51. Indeed, most recommendations have found direct or indirect expression in the bill in changes to the RCMP Act or administratively within the federal program.

Through its own extensive consultations, the government believes that it has developed a solid and coherent approach to improving the witness protection program. Given the positive response so far from key stakeholders, I am convinced that Bill C-51 and administrative changes would continue to achieve the intent of the committee's recommendations in the areas of fairness and efficiency, greater access and transparency.

I thus invite all hon. members to join me in supporting Bill C-51, the safer witnesses act.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her speech.

I wonder if she could comment on the testimony given in committee by Alok Mukherjee, president of the Canadian Association of Police Boards, on March 19, 2013. I will read a short excerpt from his speech:

Our conclusion has been that there needs to be more funding available than currently is the case. Without the availability of sufficient funding, our ability to take advantage of the program will be limited. In places like Toronto, that's a big problem because, as you know, we're dealing with serious violent crimes and often rely on witnesses from the community, not informants and others but witnesses from the community. Their needs may not be significant, as was mentioned. All they may need is a little bit of protection, but that requires that sufficient funding be available for us to be able to do it. That, for us, is a problem.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am aware that on March 19 at committee meeting 76, Dr. Mukherjee, president of the Canadian Association of Police Boards, said that both he and his colleague support the principle of the legislation.

I think the hon. member's concerns regarding resources are unfounded. In fact, the RCMP Assistant Commissioner of federal and international operations, Assistant Commissioner Todd Shean, said,

[w]ith the changes this bill brings about, the RCMP is comfortable that we have the resources within our existing resources to run an effective witness protection program

He also said,

It's not a question of resources; it's a question of the assessment that's done. Once the assessment is completed...during the assessment process the person may decide that they dodo not want to enter into the program...or...that they are not suitable for the program.

However, the RCMP has clearly said that resources are not the issue.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to hear my colleague speaking on an issue that a lot of us are interested in.

When we talk about the RCMP or other police forces having the resources to carry out important responsibilities, I have to tell the member that I have dealt with those budgets. If we tell them that they have to find it within their resources, they will do what they can, limited as that may be.

I cannot quite understand why we are all here debating this important piece of legislation at 9:30 at night, at $50,000 an hour, when we all agree that it is a good bill and that we want it passed. I am sure that my colleague has better things to do at this time of night as well. It is not as if anybody disagrees with the legislation, so why are we debating something that all members in the House agree with?

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if my hon. colleague across the way does not like debating things that we all agree on, then maybe she will vote for the next time allocation motion. That way we can go home at 11 o'clock tonight instead of midnight.

In the meantime, I want to tell her what Chief Bill Blair of the Toronto Police Services had to say about Bill C-51. Toronto is in close proximity to my riding of Mississauga South. He said:

In Toronto, we have seen the fear caused by intimidation and the threat of retaliation in gang investigations. Witnesses with valuable information are deterred from coming forward. We support the government's initiative as a valuable step in protecting public safety.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be up here this evening with everyone here. I am standing to support Bill C-51, the safer witnesses act.

This is just another block in the work that has been done by our great and capable Minister of Justice to provide Canadians with justice, law and order with our crime initiative to make our streets and communities safer. Why it is so important is that one of the first callings of government is to provide security and public safety for its citizens. It reminds me of that great quote by Thomas Jefferson. I have mentioned it a few times in the House. It is about what good government is. He says that a government that protects its citizens from harming one another and otherwise leaves them to individual pursuit of enterprise and “does not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.... This is the sum of good government”.

The first issue, of course, is that the government provide law and order and protect its citizens from harming one another. Bill C-51 addresses that part of good government that we are supplying for Canadians.

Bill C-51 would strengthen the witness protection program. The government is demonstrating once again its commitment to building those safe and secure communities for all Canadians.

Before highlighting the main provisions of the bill, let me reflect on how the proposed legislation would be an important tool for fighting serious organized crime.

Since coming into office in 2006, which was the time I was elected, our government has been focused on building safer communities. We have had a larger mandate at every election, because we have been doing that job. Among other actions, we have provided law enforcement officials with the resources to clean up our streets. We have introduced legislation to increase the accountability of offenders, and we have taken steps to modernize the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Strengthening the witness protection program through this bill before the House is a next step in our efforts to combat crime.

Statistics Canada has reported a 30% growth in the trafficking, production and distribution of cocaine in our country in the last 10 years. Such a staggering increase is not a result of small-time and isolated dealers bringing more drugs into our communities. Rather, it reflects a concerted effort by organized crime that is likely global in scope and increasingly difficult to nail down. Organized crime has become adept at harnessing new information technologies, both to carry out cybercrimes and to avoid detection from traditional activities such as drug trafficking. At the same time, they could also be using new technologies to track down potential witnesses to their crimes.

More than ever, the law enforcement community depends on informants willing to infiltrate criminal gangs and gather evidence against them. Understandably, witnesses are often only willing to testify if they are offered protection from threats. That is why Canada's federal witness protection program is so vital in our effort to fight crime and provide Canadians safe streets.

Indeed, in her comments on Bill C-51, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of British Columbia said that in the fight against crime, protecting witnesses is essential.

We must also recognize that the federal witness protection plan is based on legislation that is two decades old. The program has held up well over the last 17 years, but the time has come for this act to get into the 21st century. Only in this way can we deliver the kind of protection witnesses need and deserve, the protection that will help us fight serious and organized crime.

For my part today, I would like to focus on how the bill would streamline relations between the federal program and its provincial counterparts and in doing so, heighten safety for both witnesses and those who protect them.

Currently Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec have their own witness protection programs. Unlike the federal program, which generally is geared to protect witnesses for life through relocation and secure identity changes, provincial programs are typically set up to offer short-term protection.

If the scope of the protection becomes too large for the provincial program, help may be sought from the federal counterpart to obtain a secure identity change. However, this process can be cumbersome and time-consuming, requiring the witness to be temporarily admitted into the federal program.

Imagine the emotional state of a witness in this situation. He or she has co-operated with the authorities to testify against the ringleaders of serious crimes in return for protection before the upcoming trial. Already the witness is experiencing heightened stress that only a few of us could imagine. Now provincial authorities receive new intelligence: the risk for their witnesses are higher than previously believed. A new identity is required, and quickly.

The witness, already stressed, would be thrown into a state of emotional turmoil, first at the news of heightened danger and second at the thought of adopting a new identity and all the upheaval that would bring. Then, having made the difficult decision to join the program, the witness asks if the paperwork is finally complete, and the answer may very well be, “Not yet.”

Witnesses may have their own motivation for co-operating with the authorities, but the bottom line is that their actions may be instrumental in helping law enforcement take criminals off our streets and put them behind bars. Thus, witnesses are an important tool to prevent crime, and the system needs to serve them well.

I am speaking not only of witnesses currently in the system; I am thinking of all the potential witnesses whose testimony could take a bite out of crime in Canada. Before they are willing to co-operate, they need to have the confidence in the management of a witness protection program.

I am pleased to say that Bill C-51 introduces amendments that would help streamline the process to obtain secure identity changes for provincial witnesses. Essentially, it would allow for the designation of a provincial or municipal witness protection program. This designated status means that the witness would no longer have to join the federal program to obtain a secure identity change.

Allow me to highlight several other provisions that would strengthen and streamline the witness protection program for the benefit of the witnesses and those who protect them.

Among other goals, Bill C-51 would do the following: clarify and add provisions on the disclosure of information about protectees, including about how they are protected, and about the persons providing the assistance with that protection; specify under what circumstances disclosure of protected information is nevertheless permitted; expand the category of witnesses who may be admitted to the program to include people who are helping with the investigation of a terrorist act; give protectees in the federal program the right to end their participation voluntarily; and extend the period during which the protection may, in an emergency, be provided to a person who has not been admitted to the witness protection program.

The federal witness protection program is a key weapon in the fight against crime. It gives informants the confidence to put their lives in danger by testifying against organized crime.

For the sake of those witnesses, present and future, and for the safety and security of our communities, I urge all members to join me in supporting the safer witnesses bill.