House of Commons Hansard #36 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was union.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, as has already been mentioned, two-thirds of Canadians do not receive their mail door to door, and certainly this is something that the other one-third need to address.

The bigger question, of course, is that through the consultation it has been revealed that many customers are prepared to pay a reasonable portion for their services, provided they are not subsidizing a part of the business that is losing a significant amount of dollars. It has been quite clear that if nothing is done and everything is left to go as it is, it will cost Canadians up to $1 billion a year. Someone will have to pay for that. Through the consultations that have taken place throughout the country, generally the indication has been that they do not want taxpayers to be subsidizing a part of the business that is not profitable.

I think Canadians would expect that Canada Post would focus its attentions, dollars and infrastructure on those areas that are very competitive, that Canadians demand and expect as a service, and to remain competitive and profitable in that area.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Essex Ontario

Conservative

Jeff Watson ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, the member will know that at the transport committee, in a hearing on December 18 of last year, not only was Canada Post called to explain and defend its five-point plan, but we also heard from other important witnesses. They were academics on the left and right, groups of Canadians who have disabilities, and we heard from the union itself. One of the interesting things that was made very clear was that there is a structural problem. It is a global problem, and everybody agreed to that.

In fairness, there were differences of opinion about how to resolve it. However, this is a complex problem that does not lend itself to easy solutions. For example, small businesses said they had no problem getting rid of door-to-door delivery, but consumers said they would not mind if it was alternate-day delivery. It is not easy to reconcile all of these things.

I wonder if the member could comment on this complex situation, the structural problem and that action needs to be taken now, and whether or not he believes this plan put forward by Canada Post will bring the corporation back into balance.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt, first of all, that one has to face the reality and note where Canada Post is operating efficiently and making dollars and where it is losing dollars. The fact of the matter is that taxpayers, generally speaking, are prepared to make some accommodation to ensure they are not on the hook for $1 billion a year. That is a lot of money.

I appreciate that they would like the action to be taken in such a fashion that it would have the least possible impact, and where it could be mitigated, that steps would be taken to mitigate those actions. At the same time, one has to be realistic and ask what a corporation is prepared to do to ensure it becomes closer to a self-sustaining position.

Of course, community mailboxes would bring a savings of about $400 million to $500 million, with higher stamp prices being $160 million to $200 million, and franchised post offices and streamlined operations, $140 million to $200 million. Those are the kinds of things that have to be taken into account to bring Canada Post back in balance and where it should be.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Souris—Moose Mountain for his thoughtful comments today and for sharing his time with me.

I want to focus my speech on a fundamental truth that is at the heart of this debate, and that is living within one's means. Last year's throne speech highlighted our government's unwavering commitment to controlling spending while investing in Canadian priorities to safeguard our economy. Year after year and budget after budget, we have put in place credible plans to achieve financial sustainability and have set clear targets to bring our deficit down. These actions were crucial as we dealt with the damaging effects of the worldwide recession, one of the worst in more than seven decades. We had to get our fiscal house in order to keep Canadians working and our economy strong.

More than just managing debt, our government is tackling spending. In the same way that Canadian families and businesses have to make tough choices about how to spend their hard-earned money, we are reducing the size and cost of government to ensure taxpayers get good value for the money. We are working hard to make government more efficient and responsive to the needs of Canadians. This is because our overarching goal is to create the conditions for jobs, economic growth and prosperity for all Canadians. Our impressive track record in advancing this agenda has made Canadians the envy of the world.

Since we introduced the economic action plan to respond to the global recession, Canada has recovered more than all of the output and more than all of the jobs lost during the recession. Real GDP is significantly above pre-recession levels: the best performance in the G7. This success has not gone unnoticed. In fact, in Bloomberg's recent 2013 ranking of best countries for doing business, Canada jumped from sixth to second place, challenging Hong Kong for top position. This recognition reinforces the benefit of being good fiscal stewards. Reducing spending, lowering taxes and paying down debt are enabling us to seize new economic opportunities as we promote free trade and innovation. These are the keys to job creation, economic growth and prosperity.

I lay out these facts to underline that these same truths apply just as much to Canada Post as it faces unprecedented challenges. In the same way that our government had to make tough decisions and take decisive action to respond to the global economic downturn in 2008, Canada Post must also tighten its belt and develop new strategies for success as it copes with the detrimental impacts of the digital economy on its traditional business.

The pace of postal decline has been accelerating here in Canada and in other developed countries for a number of years. However, it accelerated after the economic slowdown struck in 2008. Companies cut their mailing costs as part of their overall cost reductions, and many opted to shift more billing, statements and marketing to an online solution. At the same time, individual consumers began moving en masse from traditional to digital communications. In fact, Canadians are now more likely to send and receive a text message or email than to write, post or wait several days for delivery. This is especially true with the under 35 crowd. They are a population of people who are starting to move into their first homes and who have led to a growth in the number of new addresses that Canada Post must serve.

Not surprisingly, rapidly declining mail volumes, combined with the need to deliver mail to more households, is causing serious financial challenges at the corporation.As other speakers have noted, mail volumes per address dropped by nearly 25% between 2008 and 2012, and a further 6% decline is forecast in 2013. We do not need a crystal ball to see where this trend is going. A 2013 report prepared by the Conference Board of Canada into the corporation's future projects states that unless major changes are made, annual operating deficits will reach nearly $1 billion by 2020. Quite simply, the corporation's current business model no longer allows it to earn sufficient revenues to offset its costs. Without changes, the future viability of the postal service is clearly in question.

Canada Post is not the only postal service in the world facing these challenges, nor is it the only one to come to a similar conclusion. The U.S. Postal Service, for example, has reduced service hours and the number of employees to address these financial pressures, while the U.K.'s postal service has been privatized, which has led to a significant increase in stamp prices.

The digital economy is not going away. The corporation cannot turn back the clock and change the fact that fewer Canadians are using the mail system and visiting post offices. Canada Post has no option but to find new ways of doing business in order to keep its operations profitable.

Like the people living in the millions of households that it delivers mail to or like any level of government that is accountable to taxpayers, Canada Post must manage its business prudently. Indeed, it has a mandate to operate on a self-sustaining financial basis. Its financial responsibility has been a legislated obligation since 1981.

The services currently provided by Canada Post are clearly no longer affordable. The corporation needs to spend within its means in the same way that individuals do as they manage their family budgets. More than that, change is essential at Canada Post if it is to keep pace with the choices Canadians are already making about the way they prefer to communicate.

To meet this goal, the corporation is focusing on the best ways to reduce its expenditures. Since delivery accounts for about 40% of Canada Post's operating costs, it is the most obvious place to start.

Door-to-door delivery is by far the most expensive mode of delivery. It costs between two and three times the cost to deliver to community mailboxes. Let us compare $283 annually for home delivery versus $108 for community mailboxes. They are also cheaper than delivery to a rural mailbox, which rings in at $179 a year.

To be clear, we are talking about changes affecting only home delivery. Businesses with large volumes of mail or located in business zones will generally retain their door-to-door delivery. However, the remaining one-third of Canadians who still have door-to-door service—a minority of people in this country, I would add—will gradually shift over the next five years to community mailboxes instead.

Community mailboxes provide secure mail storage in a convenient place close to home to receive parcels and packets. The people using them will join the 10 million other Canadians who have been receiving their mail this way for decades. Let us remember that Canada Post introduced community boxes back in 1981, so Canada Post has been successfully delivering mail and packages this way for a very long time.

Since labour is another significant component of Canada Post's rising costs, plans to return the corporation to self-sustainability have to address labour costs, including the sustainability of Canada Post's pension plan. The corporation expects to reduce its workforce by between 6,000 and 8,000 positions by 2019. This will be achieved largely through attrition. Like most workplaces populated by baby boomers, a lot will leave the workforce in a few years' time. Nearly 15,000 employees are expected to retire or leave the company over the next five years.

Another way that Canada Post is addressing its revenue shortfalls is by increasing the basic stamp price to $1. As others have explained today, there are ways of lowering this cost by buying stamps in larger quantities, which will help to keep mail costs lower for small businesses.

By taking these necessary and progressive steps, Canada Post will be able to remain productive and competitive into the future. Most importantly, these steps will enable Canada Post to become financially self-sufficient again, as it was for the 16 years up until 2011.

While Canada Post is a crown corporation that operates at arm's length from the government and is solely responsible for its day-to-day operations, all Canadians have a stake in Canada Post's long-term welfare. Canada Post has put forward a plan that it is confident will return the corporation to financial self-sustainability by 2019. It is important that this plan be implemented as quickly as possible and that these results be achieved.

Canada Post must fulfill its mandate of operating on a self-sustaining financial basis in order to protect taxpayers while modernizing its business and aligning postal services with the choices of Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I find it most frustrating and disturbing to watch Conservative after Conservative get up today to try to rationalize or justify these cuts that are going to hurt the services that many Canadians have relied upon for generations and make us become the only developed country in the world not to have door-to-door service. This is the legacy of Conservatives.

Let us talk about the sustainability of a corporation that has been profitable for 17 of the last 18 years and over that time has turned a net profit back to the Canadian taxpayer of $1.7 billion. What is unsustainable about this corporation, exactly?

As well, the Conference Board study that the Conservatives keep repeating is out by $300 million in its first year of estimates as to what was going to happen. Oh, by the way, who was the Conference Board contracted by to do this study? Canada Post. Whose CEO sits on the board of the Conference Board of Canada? There are conflicts of interest all over the place.

What is not a conflict of interest is that Canadians have to rely upon the service. Of course mail delivery is down, but parcel delivery has more than picked up the pace.

Changes need to be made to Canada Post. Let us innovate. Let us make the changes that would allow Canadians to have the services they need right across the country, rather than have these draconian measures that the Conservative government supports.

The worry we have is that this sets up Canada Post into a Conservative ideology, a Conservative movement that would allow for its privatization. There has been no assurance from government today. It is not that we would much believe a Conservative promise on privatization, but there has been no assurance that Canada Post is not being made ready to sell by a government that has only been interested in lowering expectations and lowering services to Canadians time and time again.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, Canada Post lost approximately $195 million in the last quarter alone as a result of technology, changes in methods of doing business, and decline in mail volume. Yes, we have seen an increase in parcel delivery, but it still represents only a third to a half of overall mail delivery and it is in decline. Clearly it is the responsibility of management to adapt the company to changing times and deliver on the promises of self-sustainability for which it is mandated.

I would encourage my colleague by saying that it has given us a five-step program. Clearly the five-step program should achieve all of the required objectives, and by 2019 we will once again have an organization that is self-sustainable.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on the operational side referred to by a number of the Conservatives in saying we have to do these types of things as a cost-saving measure.

It is not the first time the Conservatives have used the idea of a financial crisis to provide or encourage certain directions. The direction we are seeing today with respect to Canada Post has caused a great deal of Canadians to be very fearful and very suspicious of what the current government's true motivations are with regard to Canada Post.

There is a fear factor out there related to the privatization of Canada Post. Who can blame the postal workers for seeing and understanding and appreciating that it is a real factor?

My question for the member is about operational costs, and I posed this question to the minister responsible for Canada Post. What is the cost of just the upper end of management—the president, the group presidents, the senior vice-presidents, the vice-presidents, just that group alone, some 21 or 22 people? What does it cost to have those individuals run Canada Post?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, clearly the management is responsible to ensure that it delivers on the promise of managing a crown corporation to self-sustainability. That point has been made throughout the day without exception.

The hon. member addresses how many top executives there are, et cetera. Every corporation has executives who are responsible to do a job and do it every day when they come to work, just as when we come to work in this place. We are accountable to somebody to get the job done, and clearly the management of the corporation is responsible for providing this format, these five action plans, that will deliver the results.

I understand that for the member of the third party, the change is difficult. I would encourage him to have a look at these plans and review them. This is the change that is necessary in a digital economy to get the job done, and I applaud the executives of Canada Post for delivering an action plan that will deliver sustainable results.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my learned colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, even though 10 minutes is not enough time to defend Canada Post and I have a lot to say.

I will start with a story that dates back to February of last year, when the Conservative government came up with the brilliant idea to stop sending out income tax forms by mail, telling everyone they were readily available online. However, one of my constituents, a blind man, had trouble finding the form on the Internet and, despite his disability, went to the postal outlet closest to his home. That postal outlet no longer reports directly to Canada Post because many post offices were closed, while postal outlets opened in pharmacies, convenience stores and businesses of all kinds. Then, after several minutes of arduous walking in the middle of February, that man was told that the postal outlet no longer received income tax forms.

I then served as his letter carrier for a while and went to get the income tax form from a post office that was still open in Trois-Rivières, finally delivering it to him. I did not have the heart to tell him that not only would he not be receiving his form in the mail next year but that soon he would not be receiving anything by mail.

It seems to me that approving and supporting a decision such as this really shows a total lack of understanding of what a public service is. I am astounded by the Conservative speeches I have been hearing for the last while. I get the impression they are using their speeches to prepare the public for a full privatization of Canada Post. What they have been doing for years now, in a barely concealed way, is to represent Canada Post more like a private company, whose primary aim is to maximize profit rather than deliver services to the public. I repeat, however, that Canada Post is a public service.

I would not go so far as to say that Canada Post could operate at a loss because it is a public service, but the corporation has nevertheless made a profit in 17 of the past 18 years, even sending revenues to the government of Canada. Suddenly the government would have you believe that it is a disaster waiting to happen by 2020. However, that disaster in the making is based in large part on a report by the Conference Board of Canada, which selected 2012 as its reference year and called it a deficit year in its report. However, Canada Post finished 2012 with a budget surplus. Furthermore, three months of operations at Canada Post were overlooked in the figures used in that study because it was completed before the end of the corporation's fiscal year. Consequently, the most profitable months for Canada Post, which occurred around Christmas time, were not reflected in the budget. That is quite extraordinary—not to mention that the CEO of Canada Post sits on the board of the Conference Board of Canada. Which way do they want it? I think they wanted it both ways. This study served as a basis for all the Conservatives' arguments and all the decisions that were curiously announced the day after the House rose in December. I would not go so far as to say that the report is not worth the paper it is printed on, but it is questionable to say the least.

That raises serious questions about the Conference Board of Canada's independence from the government and about the reliability of its diagnostic analyses. Clearly, it also raises serious doubts about the acceptability of the conclusions. For a while now, in almost all the speeches made by my Conservative colleagues, I have heard the same old story of how Canadians have turned a digital corner and no longer write letters to put in the mail. I am starting to develop a serious allergy to that story.

One thing the callowest administrator to come out of a Marketing 101 course knows or should know is that letter mail is decreasing. The graph of the decrease in letter mail is probably Canada Post's most predictable feature. So any top-notch administrator, not the kind who is paid $10 million per year, should be able to predict the loss of revenue that comes with that decrease. However, there is a limit; it will not drop to zero. We are not far from seeing the decrease in letter mail bottom out.

On the other side of the ledger, we hear very little about the rather exponential increase in parcel post resulting from our transformation to the digital economy. People are sending more and more emails, and they are doing more and more online shopping. That means parcels need to be shipped.

Of course, when we are getting a parcel shipped to us, we can choose the company that will deliver it to our door or to the nearest pick-up point. Do we know of any private parcel-delivery companies operating in Canada that have distribution network, in both rural and urban areas, that is as large and extensive as Canada Post's? Once again, it seems to me that it does not take a graduate degree in marketing to understand that this is an area to be developed and that Canada Post's network is not a liability but an asset, a driving force for the change needed in Canada Post's services.

However, what did that same Conference Board of Canada report from the 1970s propose? The only proposal is about managing the drop in letter mail. Is that an acceptable vision for such well-paid managers, to tell us and try to convince us that the only issue Canada Post has to deal with is managing the drop in letter mail? That is unbelievable and inconceivable.

On the contrary, we can see from the decisions that have been made—such as eliminating an excessive number of post offices—that we are only a few post offices away from hitting the minimum number required by the agreement. I imagine that some other way will then be found to close more.

What does all that mean? I believe the Conservatives are quietly setting the stage to present Canada Post as a private business, one that generates enough profit to interest a private investor, once they have done away with anything that might be weighing it down.

However, a public service is about give and take. What is cumbersome on one hand should be compensated for by rapidly expanding sectors. In the Conference Board of Canada report, there is not a single word about emerging sectors for the future or innovation. The only thing it talks about is managing the drop in letter mail. That is terrible.

During the private meetings I attended, I could sense how stubborn the Canada Post officials were. If you listen to them and look at their outcomes, it seems as though there is no solution. That is completely untrue. We must be wary of privatization. Canada Post is more than just a public service; it is vital for Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by thanking my colleague for his eloquent speech on the imminent demise of Canada Post and for presenting all of the facts.

This situation defies comprehension. The Conservatives boast of being businessmen and sound managers of the economy. However, here they are abandoning Canada Post and the people who depend on this service without seeking out any solutions other than making cuts until selling off the corporation is the only option. They could try to come up with some innovative solutions that would enable Canada Post to take in more revenue.

I was especially aghast earlier during question period. The NDP put a question to the government about Canada Post’s plan. The NDP outlined the concerns of seniors and persons with disabilities who will be forced to navigate icy sidewalks and brave weather conditions that are potentially hazardous to their health. The Conservatives laughed and said that this was Canada and cold weather was a fact of life.

As I see it, these are considerations that the government must take into account when making decisions that affect so many Canadians. I would like my colleague to elaborate further on the possible negative impact that ending home mail delivery will have on Canada’s seniors and persons living with a disability.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question.

I have a two-part answer. First, regarding the supposed imminent demise of the corporation, I would argue that Canada Post is not at death’s door and never will be. My biggest fear is that this jewel will be sold off to private interests.

This government does not appreciate the importance of maintaining public services. It thinks the private sector can do everything for less money. In truth, there would not be much of a cost saving. In fact, for the same price, we would enjoy far fewer services.

As for the impact of the decision on seniors, I would like to expand on this because seniors are not the only group affected. By repeating the same ridiculous thing over and over again, the Conservatives hope to make us believe that what they are saying is true. They say that a certain percentage of Canadian households no longer receive home mail delivery anyway, but that does not mean that these households are satisfied with the service they do receive.

A few years ago, I moved to a neighbourhood with mailboxes. I got used to it, but I do not really like it. It is clear that, for many people in my riding, especially the elderly, it is a deciding factor when considering a move. People have to consider whether they will be able to live where they do not have access to door-to-door postal service because they cannot get out easily, especially not in winter.

Nobody wants the situation to get worse, but maybe it could get better if there was a real survey of Canadian consumers to find out whether they are satisfied with the mailboxes they will be forced to use.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to congratulate my colleague on his speech. We live in more or less neighbouring regions, so our realities are similar.

My region, however, has more rural municipalities. Every year since becoming an MP, I have had to deal with issues around postmasters' work because Canada Post finds all kinds of ways to hold up the process and prevent us from replacing those people.

I also have to deal with issues involving the survival of postal outlets in the smallest municipalities. The problem with this government is that, citing Canada Post's lack of profit, it is gradually turning the whole corporation over to the private sector.

What if we look at what other countries are doing? For example, in Italy, profits had been declining for 50 years; worse still the postal service was running deficit after deficit. Then its postal outlets began offering financial services, and now the Italian postal service is turning a profit again.

The same thing happened in Australia, France and South America. There are all kinds of examples of ways to help Canada Post improve its bottom line. Just because there are fewer clients and somewhat fewer letters, but more packages, does not mean the postal service is to blame and privatization is the only answer.

Does my colleague think that, before we let Canada Post dismantle our essential service, it would be a good idea to look at what other countries are doing and follow their example?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question.

If I were a Conservative MP—something that would never happen—my answer would be simple: we do not want to look at new services because we want to sell. We are not going to bother developing new sectors because that might prove that we can make Canada Post profitable again.

What is clear is that the unionized employees, namely all the people who are behind Canada Post and want to maintain this public service, are presenting a united front and wondering why the government is not benefiting from international experience.

Canada is not the first country to have to adapt its postal services in response to the new realities. Unfortunately, there are two categories of people who are turning a blind eye to this issue: the Conservatives and Canada Post management. Obviously there is a brick wall between them. Everyone knows that they do not talk to one another. Oddly enough, on the morning of the announcement in December, the Conservative government issued a press release two hours later to say that it totally agreed with the battery of measures that had just been announced.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, Official Languages; the hon. member for York South—Weston, Privacy; the hon. member for Drummond, The Environment.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, as this is my first opportunity to speak after returning from holiday break, let me state the very obvious, and that is how much I enjoy being back in my riding for more than just a Friday and a Saturday.

Let me state the other obvious, my shock at being back in the polar vortex when the daffodils in my yard are already about four inches tall and the first ornamental fruit trees bloomed in our neighbourhood this week.

More seriously, I welcome the fact that the holiday break gave me a chance to talk to my constituents. It gave me the opportunity to do important things like visit the Edward Milne Community School in Sooke where, as usual, I faced tougher questions from high school students than from people almost anywhere else I go.

While some have questioned the seemingly cynical timing of Canada Post's announcement of service cuts, strangely, it facilitated my dialogue with constituents. That is what they wanted to talk to me about all through the break period. Wherever I went, the most common topic was the Canada Post proposal to eliminate home delivery.

This is a loss of a service very important to seniors and those with mobility issues, but I also heard from small business owners in my riding who communicate with their customers through Canada Post and who fear that their mailings will not make it from that community box into the house. It is hard enough to get people to pay attention to mail between the mailbox and the recycling bin, but if it never gets to the house at all, small business are quite worried that it will take away one of their main ways of communicating with customers.

Canada Post has the obvious mandate to deliver mail. It has been doing so profitably, returning $1.7 billion to public coffers in 16 out of the last 17 years. It is a bit rich for the Conservatives to stand up and talk about a crisis we are having with Canada Post when it is a profit-making corporation. Yes, things have changed and Canada Post has to change with the times. However, we are not in a crisis situation that caused this drastic reduction in public services. Why did Canada Post not turn a profit in one year? That was the year Canada Post locked out its employees.

It is true that in my riding not everyone has home delivery service, but it is also not true, which the Conservatives seem to conclude, that those people would not rather have home delivery than community boxes. In fact, I appeared on local radio right after this decision was made, and we heard from a disabled resident in a part of my riding that does not have home delivery. She cannot access the mail in a community box due to her disability. She contacted Canada Post and asked what she was supposed to do. She was told to get someone to get her mail for her. Her right to have access to mail was being denied by the fact that community boxes are not accessible to most people with disabilities.

Conservatives have tried to divide Canadians on this issue by putting forward the false statement that only one-third of Canadians have home delivery. They have forgotten about the 5% who have rural delivery at their boxes and those who get delivery at apartments, somehow saying that this is not home delivery.

In fact, only 25% of Canadians get delivery at community boxes, and I bet that most of those, if they had a choice, would choose home delivery.

Why is this wrong-headed idea of the Conservatives going ahead? They have put forward a number of excuses that we have heard over and over here today.

The first of those, of course, is that Canada Post is an independent crown corporation and it made this decision without any reference to the government. I find this a bit strange when we all know that the public owns Canada Post, and the Conservatives have filled the board of Canada Post with people who are not known supporters of public services, including a president and CEO who is a director of the Conference Board of Canada, a group that, coincidentally, issued a pessimistic report on Canada Post in the spring of 2013.

What were the options in that report, which forecast a $1 billion deficit? They were ending home delivery and increasing the price of stamps. Now we find out, of course, that the report was in fact commissioned by Canada Post, by the CEO of Canada Post who sits as a director on the Conference Board of Canada's board. Here we have an obvious conflict of interest, as well as a report that projected a shortfall of $1 billion. However, in the first year after the report came out, it was wrong by more than $350 million on the performance of Canada Post.

Canada Post appears to be at arm's length when it is convenient, but not at arm's length at other times. I remember when we first came into the House of Commons in 2011, those of us who were first elected then, and the government used its legislation to end the labour dispute. Why was that an emergency that required all-night debate? It was because it would halt mail delivery.

Now we have the same government back in the House saying that it is okay to halt mail delivery. There is a bit of inconsistency here in the way we treat the issue of Canada Post.

The second excuse is that it had already consulted Canadians. We know that the consultations were done primarily online. In British Columbia, the only communities that were invited for consultation were Nanaimo, Vancouver, Coquitlam and Kamloops. No one in my riding or in any of the ridings near the area I represent was asked to be part of that consultation. Interestingly, the results from that narrow consultation are not being released by Canada Post, so one would think that it did not hear what it wanted to hear since it is not willing to even tell us what that limited sample told it.

The third excuse I have already touched on, that being that Canada Post's business plan is necessary to avoid a future crisis and losses that might extend to $1 billion a year. If it really were faced with this crisis, as my colleague from Trois-Rivières said, those with even basic training in business would say that a good strategy would not be to raise prices and cut services. That would dig a deeper hole. Instead, other nations have looked at how they use the largest retail outlet network in the country, something that spans urban and rural Canadians, to make more profits to support maintaining this essential service.

We have the example of New Zealand Post, which got into the proposal for postal banking. Earlier, I heard one of the members ask how we would capitalize that and pay for it. New Zealand Post had no trouble doing that. It is making a profit off this business, in addition to maintaining its essential service.

One of my personal favourites is that we might have seen Canada Post bid on the broadband auction. It could have used its retail network to provide real competition to the big three telecom companies by entering the cell phone service business. Competition would have been a good thing for the big three. Of course, with a board at Canada Post dominated by private sector business people, it is not an option it even looked at.

A closer look at the business plan for Canada Post reveals something else that is interesting. It has a president and CEO who is paid nearly $500,000 a year. This is an organization with two group presidents, whatever that means, seven senior vice-presidents and twelve vice-presidents. According to its 2012 annual report, the senior management group of 22 people received more than $10 million in annual compensation, not including $2 million in termination benefits. The CEO of Canada Post did say it would look at cutting some of these 22 presidents and vice-presidents after it finished eliminating up to 8,000 family-supporting jobs across the country. This is a curious economic strategy at a time when the Conservative finance minister keeps reminding everyone that the economy remains fragile. How will eliminating thousands of stable, full-time, well-paying, family-supporting jobs, distributed in communities all across the country, contribute to our economic recovery? The answer to that is obvious.

On this side of the House, we are definitely hearing from our constituents on this issue. Several of my colleagues have held town hall meetings like the ones in Victoria and North Delta, which had standing-only crowds, including seniors who are concerned about maintaining their independence. This week I heard from the daughter of a man who is still living on his own at the age of 95. His ability to access his post and take care of his own business is an important part of his independence and dignity as a senior. This is very much threatened by putting up a box. In my community there is certainly not room on every block so it would be two or three blocks away from this senior who would lose his ability to take care of himself and his independence.

We heard from people with disabilities at these meetings. I mentioned earlier the very concrete example of the difficulties that people with disabilities have when it comes to accessing community mailboxes.

We heard from members of the public who do not want one of these in front of their house. The municipalities in my riding have taken up the concern as to how they would install community mailboxes safely and conveniently in existing neighbourhoods. It is a real problem. Who would bear the expense of the planning and construction? How would they accommodate traffic around those in existing neighbourhoods? The municipalities in my riding have promised to pass resolutions asking Canada Post to reconsider this idea of ending home delivery.

In conclusion, this is not just an urban issue. My colleague from British Columbia Southern Interior shared with me a letter he wrote to the minister almost immediately after the cuts were announced.

In this letter, he makes many of the same points I have made in my speech, but he emphasizes the impact of the elimination of home delivery in rural communities in B.C., like Nelson and Trail, which not only have steep hills but have something Victoria does not have, and that is regular icy winter weather to deal with. He also pointed out that in most rural areas in British Columbia there was no consultation of any kind and that job losses in rural communities would be very hard to make up and they would have a severe impact.

This leaves me with a question. The Conservatives say they are not really hearing an outcry against this policy, which would make Canada the only developed country without home delivery. Are they really not hearing the outcry or are they just not listening?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Essex Ontario

Conservative

Jeff Watson ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, I am glad we have returned to the question of New Zealand. The New Zealand post office created the Kiwibank and capitalized it out of postal revenues to the tune of about $360 million. This is a country, by the way, of about four million people. Kiwibank has been very profitable—the member is correct—but it is cannibalizing postal services, actually. The capitalization of Kiwibank has cannibalized the postal delivery service.

The member can google this right now if he wants to, but New Zealand is cutting back delivery to three times a week, closing dozens of postal offices and slashing 1,000 postal jobs. I thought that postal banking, as New Zealand was saying it, was supposed to save those jobs. It is not helping postal delivery services. It is helping a postal bank, by the way.

Will the member be able to tell us how much creating a postal bank would cost in Canada? How much would it take to capitalize it; how much would it take to run post offices as branch banks; and how would Canada Post be able to afford that in its current fiscal situation?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question, but it is peculiar in a couple of ways. One is that he is a member of a government that is making a proposal to end home delivery without considering alternatives like how much a postal bank would cost and how that could support the delivery. It is also a government that has appointed a CEO who is paid more than $500,000 a year to ask basic questions like that and who has 21 vice-presidents assisting him who might have questions like that, which might have been able to save home delivery in Canada. No, they were too busy to ask those questions. I am not sure exactly what they were doing, but it was not planning to maintain home delivery for Canadians across the country.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is important that we take note that there is no crisis with Canada Post today. In fact, if we take a look at the history of Canada Post, we will see that it has done exceptionally well. It has been a great deal for taxpayers across this country. We will find that the public has had an overwhelmingly positive experience and values this particular crown corporation. I believe the concern is that the Conservative government cannot be trusted. The types of changes that are being imposed upon Canadians are being driven more by the Conservative government than even by Canada Post itself. Canadians lack trust and confidence in the government when it deals with crown corporations like Canada Post, CBC and so forth.

The question I have for the member is this. Does he not share the belief that I, Liberals and many others have that Canada Post has not done enough in terms of working with the different stakeholders, in particular Canadians and employees of Canada Post, in doing some strategic planning going into the future? There is no doubt that Canada Post continues to and must play a very strong role in the development of our nation.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear how Canada Post planned. Its CEO went to the Conference Board of Canada, asked for a report saying that home delivery should be eliminated and prices increased, paid for the report it wanted and then used it as the excuse to do what it intended to do all along. I certainly would agree with the member that there are many other ways to deal with the changes that are taking place in our economy that affect Canada Post.

One thing I have heard from some people is, of course, that young people do not mail letters. No, of course, they do not. They shop online and get things delivered to their homes. We are seeing changing patterns through the generations, but it is a pattern that Canada Post should have tried to figure out how to capitalize on because, as many members before me have said, this is an operation with the largest retail network that spans the entire country. Surely to God, managers who are paid as much as they are could figure out a way to make an additional profit, which might take up any slack that occurs in the future.

We definitely do not have a crisis at Canada Post, and we definitely should not be standing here today considering the elimination of one of our essential services. We owe it to seniors, to people with disabilities and to the struggling small business community to continue this essential service.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by saying that I will share my time with the member for Random—Burin—St. George's.

I think it is worth pointing out once again that postal services are essential services. I think that is something that everyone in the House agrees on, regardless of our party affiliations.

Why am I rising here to say it is an essential service? First of all, the government is the one that made this declaration when it put an end to the Canada Post strike in June 2011. The government felt the need to legislate an end to the strike because, as members on the other side of the House claimed at the time, it is an essential service. Everyone needed to get back to work as quickly as possible.

We can see that it is an essential service because, over the years, Canada Post has proposed some changes to its policies. We often see an outcry from the business community, especially small and medium-sized businesses, about how policy changes have an impact on their bottom line. This is an essential service.

The new strategy was announced rather quietly, once the House of Commons had adjourned for the winter break. If postal services are essential, I hope that this strategy is not the first step toward the eventual privatization of Canada Post. As I said, this is an essential service.

Because this is an essential service, it is structured like a crown corporation and not like a private company that is not accountable to the Government of Canada.

It is a crown corporation because when we are talking about an essential service, some accountability is needed. If it were not a crown corporation, we could not debate its future here in the House. It is very important to have that accountability.

As a crown corporation—or quasi-governmental organization, if you would prefer—the Canada Post Corporation is required to consult before making a major policy change. It apparently conducted consultations before it decided to stop home mail delivery. Unfortunately, I have noticed in the past that these consultations seem to essentially be bogus. I will share two examples.

In my constituency, they decided to close a very small post office. It is actually one of the smallest I have seen in my life. Obviously, they asked for people's opinions. The post office was in my constituency, in the village of Pointe-Claire. A consultation was held and people were asked to send their comments by mail or by email. I myself took the opportunity to write to Canada Post to ask for the post office to remain open. People everywhere were opposed to the closure. Even the municipal council in Pointe-Claire asked the Canada Post Corporation to join with it in holding some kind of open public meeting to discuss the matter.

Despite all that, the post office was closed. Frankly, I think that the decision had already been made, because everything that needed to be done to close the post office had already been started. This is the first example of why these consultations seem to be bogus. The same thing happened in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. The post office was closed, even though people were against the idea.

Members on the other side of the House are constantly on their feet in this debate to explain to us that the world has changed. We know that the world has changed: everyone here has a BlackBerry, and the Internet is critically important in modern communications. We do not need to be told that over and over again. The world has changed; email is a common form of communication and we have to adapt to that. Canada Post has to adapt, for sure. In this day and age, the organizations that successfully adapt are those that demonstrate creativity. We hear it everywhere. Administration and management experts tell us that a modern organization must be able to come up with creative strategies, to adapt and to change its culture from the inside, and so on. We have to believe it.

I get the impression that the Canada Post Corporation has not reacted very creatively in this matter. Rather than suddenly stopping home mail delivery, the corporation needed to have been more open to the ideas going around that could have helped it to adapt better, some of which have been mentioned in this debate. That culture of openness is nowhere to be found inside Canada Post and I will come back to that a little later.

Many MPs have received complaints about Canada Post over the years, so they know that in many cases, the elderly and people with disabilities have trouble getting to community mailboxes. I would like to share a case I dealt with a few years back. I will not mention any names because I want to protect these people's privacy. There was a couple in my riding, and both members had multiple sclerosis. The community mailbox was on a little island across from their house. They had serious problems getting their mail. First of all, the mailbox was too high. Second, the box itself was too deep, so they could not reach all the way to the back to get all of their mail. Canada Post was contacted, and a comedy of errors ensued. In the end, the lock was changed, and this person could not longer get mail at all. The community mailbox was across from their house, and even then it was a nightmare for this couple with disabilities. It caused problems.

I would like to share some comments people made during a meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities held before the holidays about how Canada has a fairly high number of people with disabilities. According to the 2012 Canadian Survey on Disability, “about 3.8 million people, or 13.7% of Canadians aged 15 and older, reported being limited in their daily activities because of a disability.” The prevalence of disability increases steadily with age.

Our population is experiencing rising levels of reduced mobility, and we need to take that into account. Canada Post has not done so. There should be broader consultations to get ideas from Canadians about how to solve problems related to our new technological reality.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Essex Ontario

Conservative

Jeff Watson ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, listening to the debate today one would think that the problems with postal service in Canada were somehow Canadian only, but in fact, they are happening all over the world.

From a report in the U.K., declining letter volumes have accelerated since 2008, declining by 20% by 2015, at a rate of 3% a year. Losses are increasing for the Royal Mail, and its pension deficit is worsening. The U.K. government responded by privatizing its postal service.

If we look at the independent GAO report in the United States, there is a decline of 27 billion pieces of letter mail, and plummeting revenues with it. There is $90 billion in unfunded pension liability, and it is growing, barring substantial restructuring. They proposed draconian things, like cutting the workforce in half in the United States.

Canada Post has a five-point plan. Canada Post is having similar problems, with one billion fewer pieces of letter mail in 2012 versus 2006. There is no solution, by the way, or no thought about a solution, from the other side; just much more talk and less action, which leads to a growing problem for Canada Post.

I want to point to something the member said. He talked about mail as an essential service, and I presume in the context of door-to-door delivery. He believes the same.

Does he then advocate that door-to-door delivery should be extended to the two thirds of Canadian addresses that do not currently have door-to-door? If so, how would he propose Canada Post, in its current financial situation, pay to expand that service?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, the member mentioned drastic measures that have been taken in other countries. How do we know that Canada Post does not have another five-point plan in its pocket?

I do not think we can really put much faith in Canada Post's ability to be transparent and accountable when we see it announcing its decision to stop mail delivery the day after the House of Commons rises for the Christmas holidays. That is not a company headed by a CEO who believes in transparency. We do not know if there are more drastic measures coming or not, which is why we are having this discussion and why we need to have an even larger discussion.

We understand the new Internet reality. We understand that organizations and corporations need to adapt, but what we are questioning is the ability of this organization to adapt and whether it has the management culture to adapt without harming so many Canadians in one fell swoop.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I find my colleague's comments interesting. He stands there and defends our public services. He says all the right things, and the NDP agrees with most of what has been said. However, in spite of all this goodwill, I find it a little hard to believe him. We have not heard the Liberal Party comment on Canada Post's decisions in the media.

I was here in Ottawa on Sunday at the demonstration in support of our postal workers and all the Canadians who were there. We numbered in the thousands, and yet not one representative of the Liberal Party was there. I understand that it was -30oC. It was a little cold and quite windy. It was not easy, but when you truly believe that you have to stand up and fight for public services, particularly Canada Post, you have to make the effort to stand alongside Canadians who are out there demanding that the Prime Minister and his government give them the services they are entitled to.

I have to ask, how can Canadians really believe that the Liberal Party is sincere about defending Canada Post, when the Liberals are not even willing to face the cold and fight alongside Canadians as they demand the services they are entitled to from Canada Post?

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, here in the House, we express ourselves by voting, and we will be supporting this motion.

No matter which party we belong to, we all defended our constituents when they submitted complaints about Canada Post. We will continue to defend them.

Opposition Motion—Canada PostBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion today:

That, in the opinion of the House, door-to-door mail delivery is a valuable service provided by Canada Post, and that this House express its opposition to Canada becoming the only country in the G7 without such a service.

Just a few months ago, the Conservative government claimed to be committed to addressing the needs of consumers and middle-class families. Clearly, nothing could be further from the truth. Now the Conservatives are endorsing a plan to further reduce a service provided by Canada Post, which will negatively affect both consumers and middle-class families. With budget 2014 looming, the Conservatives are once again making empty promises to consumers while at the same time drastically cutting vital consumer services such as mail delivery.

This motion speaks directly to residents of Stephenville, in my riding of Random—Burin—St. George's, who will lose their door-to-door mail delivery service as a result of this latest decision. Residents are writing to me to say that this decision will have a serious impact on them and that it will “also hurt people with disabilities and seniors”.

Contrast these legitimate concerns with a callous comment made by the Prime Minister's appointed President and CEO of Canada Post, Deepak Chopra, who suggested that the cuts to mail service delivery would benefit seniors by ensuring that they receive more exercise. This unfortunate and insensitive comment when asked if Canada Post was concerned about the negative impact these cuts would have on seniors proves again that the Conservative government does not understand the needs of aging Canadians. Many will now be forced to commute, sometimes in dangerous conditions and for long distances, should they need to stay connected to the world through the traditional mail service.

Let me just speak about mailbox delivery for a minute, because in rural Canada, we do, in fact, have mailboxes. I can tell the House that they are not something people enjoy having to go to. In fact, depending on where they are located, if they are exposed to the weather, a lot of mail gets ruined. It gets wet. Locks are frozen. People have to try to defrost the locks to get at their mail. In a lot of cases, we have had to ask Canada Post to build shelters to cover the mailboxes.

Pointing to mailboxes as a solution is hardly one that is acceptable to Canadians, certainly not those who have experienced the conditions that those who presently use mailboxes have had.

As is its practice, the Conservative government has once again chosen to not consult Canadians before implementing drastic changes that will impact people from coast to coast to coast. Under the Conservative government, Canada Post is not only drastically reducing services to cut costs, it is increasing the cost of service by raising the price of postage stamps to $1, up from 63 cents, when purchased individually.

For a government that prides itself on being pro-business, it seems to know very little about how to manage the business of mail delivery. Increasing costs while decreasing service may insulate the Conservatives' deficit from expanding in the short term, but in the long term, it will only increase Canada Post's challenges and drive more customers away, ensuring an uncertain future for Canada Post, especially in rural communities.

In addition to cutting delivery services and increasing postage costs, Canada Post also plans to reduce operations and address the cost of labour by cutting between 6,000 and 8,000 jobs over the next five years. These job cuts and the reduction of employee hours will affect not only the employees but the economy of the area, particularly in rural communities, where the loss of well-paying jobs really hits hard.

The fact that letter mail volume has been dropping for a number of years now should have seen the government working with Canada Post to find ways of changing business practices without imposing cuts that will make it difficult for Canadians. Rather than presiding over a slow and steady march to the end of the traditional mail service on which many Canadians still depend, especially in rural communities, the Conservative government should have taken the opportunity to implement creative solutions to encourage more people to use Canada Post.

One solution being suggested by some is to incorporate banking services into post offices to increase revenue, as some countries have done. Of course, to do something different and creative and productive would mean thinking outside the box instead of opting for the easy way out, which is to cut service, and in doing so, to cut employment.

Instead of suggesting sensible solutions, the government put forward a reprehensible tax in the form of a $5 surcharge on all parcels delivered to people living in Fort McMurray. Although I represent a riding in Newfoundland and Labrador, it is well known that a significant number of people from Newfoundland and Labrador work in Fort McMurray, including some of my constituents, who travel back and forth, because they want to work, and do so. However, they are forced to be separated from their families on a regular basis for extended periods of time. This tax imposed an unfair cost for communication between them and their loved ones. Fortunately, the government was forced to withdraw the surcharge because of a public outcry.

One has to wonder why a government that claims to stand up for consumer rights would entertain such a suggestion by Canada Post in the first place, if the suggestion came from Canada Post. The fact is that the Conservative government continues to put its own priorities first while claiming to be acting in the best interests of Canadians, something Canadians will not forget.

While letter mail volume has been declining, parcels and larger package shipments have been increasing, thanks to a rising modern Internet consumer economy on which Canada Post has failed to capitalize. One would think that those involved in the decision-making process at Canada Post would have the support of the government to be creative and to implement policies that would be good for consumers. That certainly does not appear to be the case, unless these decisions by Canada Post play into a political strategy by the Conservative government to create the conditions for the privatization of Canada Post, something we are all fearful of. We seem to be pointing in that direction.

Canada Post says it currently delivers the mail door-to-door to more than five million Canadian households, whose residents represent about one-third of Canada's population. Yes, ending door-to-door delivery is a serious issue, as is the situation that many people in rural Canada face, including many in Random—Burin—St. George's, who are fighting just to keep postal service of any kind in their communities because of decisions made by Canada Post that have been supported by the government.

While the NDP has chosen not to include rural Canadians in its motion today on Canada Post, these proposed cuts to door-to-door service are in addition to the drastic service reductions affecting rural Canadians already. For example, the Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association was recently informed by Canada Post that the crown corporation plans to further reduce postal services in 38 rural communities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, including Baine Harbour, Frenchman's Cove, Harbour Breton, Harbour Mille, and Rushoon in my riding of Random—Burin—St. George's.

Many of these communities will see their post office hours reduced or the post office closed entirely on weekends. For many people who work, weekends are when they need to be able to access their mail. Despite the dependence of Canadians living in those communities on timely and reliable postal service, they are being totally ignored. These most recent cuts are in addition to those that have already taken place in communities throughout Canada.

The government must recognize that, unfortunately, many rural Canadians do not have the same level of access to high-speed Internet as their urban counterparts. There is all this talk about online banking rather than putting banking services in some postal areas.

The government simply does not understand the situation a lot of people find themselves in, particularly in rural communities. They depend on traditional mail service to communicate. By cutting their access to traditional mail service, the Conservative government is further isolating individuals and businesses from the national economy, which will only increase the urban-rural divide. The federal government has a responsibility to ensure that rural Canadians are not treated like second-class citizens.

I have repeatedly conveyed my concerns about this to the minister responsible for Canada Post Corporation, but nothing seems to happen. All the concerns seem to fall on deaf ears.

In response, the Conservative government continues to abdicate its responsibility by pointing to Canada Post's status as a crown corporation. However, as a crown corporation, Canada Post reports directly to the Government of Canada, to the Minister of Transport.