House of Commons Hansard #40 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was banks.
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
I invite the House to take note of today's use of the wooden mace. The wooden mace is traditionally used when the House sits on February 3, to mark the anniversary of the fire that destroyed the original Parliament Buildings on this day in 1916.
The House resumed from November 29, 2013, consideration of the motion that Bill C-473, An Act to amend the Financial Administration Act (balanced representation), be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak on Bill C-473, legislation that would amend the Financial Administration Act to achieve balanced representation of the number of women and men serving as directors on boards of parent crown corporations, by establishing the minimum proportion of each.
I want to commend my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles for an initiative which builds on the work of the senator for Bedford, Quebec.
Before I discuss the merits of the legislation, I would like to note that women's rights are human rights and there are no human rights that do not include the rights of women. Therefore, it is incumbent upon each of us to give expression to this fundamental message through concrete action and to understand that the tools to promote the objectives of equality are in our own hands. That is, we must commit ourselves to this cause without delay. Canada ranks 20th among 133 countries regarding the gender gap, behind Nicaragua, Latvia, Cuba, and Lesotho. Status of Women Canada has a $29.6 million budget and only four offices. The government has yet to launch an inquiry into the 600 missing and murdered aboriginal women and girls. Violence drives 100,000 women and children from their homes into shelters each year. Canadian women earn 81¢ for every $1 that a man earns, and the government fails to value the enormous contribution that women make to the two-thirds of the 25 billion hours of unpaid work that Canadians perform every year.
While women make up 50.9% of the Canadian population, women hold barely one-quarter of the seats in the House. Canada ranks 42nd in terms of the gender gap in politics. This is a result of policy choices we have made and that we should change. While I will not go into the details here, we have examples from around the world, such as Norway and Sweden, that if we remove obstacles, including financial barriers, more women would run, more women would be elected, and we would improve gender parity in the House of Commons.
Beyond policy options to improve gender parity in Parliament, there are policy options with respect to equality more broadly, and that is what this bill is about. Bill C-473 is at second reading, and the question before Parliament is whether it should be sent to committee for further study. I believe the bill should indeed be referred to committee, so that witnesses can help inform the discussion and debate. I support the spirit and principle of the bill, as I believe gender parity is a goal we must pursue, and more importantly attain.
According to the research organization Catalyst, women make up 47% of the Canadian labour force, but only 14% of board seats among the 500 largest Canadian companies surveyed by the Financial Post. Women's representation on boards of publicly traded companies still stands at only 10.3%. There was new data out last night that suggests another study shows it may be 20%.
Many industrialized countries have discovered that legislation is needed to achieve balanced representation in the corporate world. Since 2008, at least nine countries, including Norway, Spain, France, and Italy, have adopted some form of quota requirements for diversity on corporate boards. Other countries do not have fixed quotas, but they have set targets for women that companies are either required to comply with or must explain publicly why they are not.
According to Deb Gillis, chief operating officer at Catalyst, “There really is a global conversation going on right now about the issue of women on boards”. Yet, in Canada, progress has been glacial. The Globe and Mail's annual “Board Games” report on corporate governance found that 41% of companies in the benchmark S&P/TSX index still have no women on their boards.
There are some questions to be addressed in committee regarding the scope and implementation of this bill. One question is whether the legislation goes far enough, in that the number of women on boards may not be an accurate indicator in and of itself of women's progress more broadly. Let me provide an example.
Just because we have gender parity on a board heading a science agency does not mean we are doing enough to encourage women to enter and remain in the sciences, or that women are equitably represented in decisions regarding science policy. We all hope that if more women are on boards, these boards and agencies will adopt policies and perspectives that are inclusive and sensitive to the need for minority representation.
However, we might wonder whether there are other metrics to be considered in this regard, such as compensation. Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, the bill seems to be silent on the matter of sanctions. That is, it does not outline penalties or remedial action for failure to adhere to the objectives outlined in the bill.
It specifically states:
An act of the board of directors of a parent Crown corporation to which section 105.1 applies is not invalid on the sole ground that the composition of the board is not in compliance with that section.
In other words, any decision made by a board without the designated gender representation is not invalid if the board does not meet the appropriate gender representation requirements. This clause would seem to lessen the strength of the bill.
I think we have to investigate whether we might have some sort of mechanism whereby we do not merely say, as this bill does, that failure to meet the required parity is just business as usual and we are sorry. Ultimately, without any consequence for failure to meet the quotas, this entire initiative may become an exercise in symbolism, which I am sure the hon. member who introduced the bill did not intend to be the principal impact.
There are multiple approaches to this question. Those studying the bill at committee should perhaps question what the goal should be, and if and when sanctions should be put in place. For example, should the goal be 50% parity in the statute and that sanctions be mandated with a figure of less than 40%, or should perhaps some other number be achieved?
We need to hear expert witness testimony before the committee. While Canada has seen little improvement in women's representation on boards, other countries have seen marked improvement. For example, in France, where mandatory quotas will take effect in 2017, women comprised 16.6% of directors in 2011, up from 9.1% just 2 years earlier.
I hope we can send this bill to committee so that witnesses will provide the evidence that we as parliamentarians can then use to inform our perspectives and the subsequent debate.
Before concluding my remarks, I would be remiss if I did not note that all issues of gender parity are not solved by this bill, though it is certainly a step in the right direction. There are indeed many other concerns, both domestic and international, that time does not permit me to address, including pay equity, ending violence against women, an inquiry into the 600 missing and murdered aboriginal women, matrimonial real property, gender budgeting, women in armed conflict, etcetera, on which I would encourage the government to adopt a more progressive and inclusive approach.
Until that time, I hope more private members' bills such as this will seek to advance the equality cause that arguably the government has abandoned.
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to speak on Bill C-473, An Act to amend the Financial Administration Act (balanced representation), which concerns balanced representation on the boards of crown corporations.
We are at second reading, which is the point at which this House determines if a bill has the merit to be sent to a committee for further study.
I want to thank my colleague who submitted this bill, the member of Parliament for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, and also her predecessor, Irene Mathyssen, who did a lot of work on this issue as well. I thank them—
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
Order. I remind the hon. member that she must not refer to other members of this place by their given names, but rather by their constituency.
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I meant to refer to the member for London—Fanshawe. Thank you for that reminder.
Mr. Speaker, the bill is an important measure about gender equity, and specifically it proposes that the representation on the boards of crown corporations achieve gender parity within six years, and I will be more specific in terms of what it is proposing.
The bill would seek to increase the representation of women to 30% after two years of coming into force and 40% after four years; six years after the bill comes into force, 50% of the board members be women. The bill does not suggest that—
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
Order. I am not sure what the cause of the disruption was, but the hon. member for Parkdale—High Park has the floor.
The hon. member for Parkdale—High Park.
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Mr. Speaker, I notice there is a group who might be very enthusiastic about this New Democrat private member's bill. I hope that is the case for their comments.
The bill seeks to improve the representation of women on the boards of crown corporations. It does not, at this point, seek to change any representation of companies, corporate entities, financial institutions, or publicly trade companies, but we do believe that this is one important step toward gender parity in our public institutions.
Why is that important? It is important because more than half of our population is women, and these are public institutions that are paid for with our tax dollars and deserve to have the input and the representation in a balanced fashion.
My colleagues opposite may say they do not want anything that interferes with the merit principle, but I would argue that the current lack of representation of women on our boards of crown corporations, which is less than 30% today, is ignoring the merit of more than half of the population, which is women and ought to be represented in these public institutions. That is what the bill is seeking to do.
Diversity on boards of directors is vital to the good governance of organizations. It allows a more holistic view of the environment and better representation of those who are clients, shareholders, and so on. The bill aims to achieve balanced representation among women and men in the management of public finances over a reasonable time horizon and to position Canada as a world leader in gender representation on boards and boards of directors of crown corporations.
Women are still underrepresented within our country's decision-making authorities, and the NDP is the only party suggesting concrete action to promote the equality of women and men, which includes equal representation in managing our public affairs. That may well be because we are the first party to achieve 40% representation among our members of caucus here in the House.
Diversity within corporate boards enables organizations to seek out women with exceptional expertise or specific skills. Boards of directors can gain access to vital, complementary competencies, allowing women to contribute to their full potential.
As the member of Parliament for Parkdale—High Park, I live in a riding in Toronto where we have an incredible diversity of talent, women and men. I note that there are many artists, professionals, and leaders of community organizations. Of the two city councillors, one MP, one MPP, and one school trustee in our community, all but one are women; so we have an incredibly talented base of people in our riding. The fact that they are not equally represented in our public institutions, in the House, nor in our crown corporations, is an incredible waste of talent.
At the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women, held in Beijing in 1995, the participants concluded that only equal participation of women and men at all levels of the decision-making process could allow us to achieve the balance needed for democracy to work and grow stronger. The most recent data indicate that there are 2,000 Canadians who hold positions in more than 200 crown corporations, agencies, boards of directors and commissions across the country, but women are under-represented on boards of directors, where they currently hold only 27% of positions. According to the list of heads of crown corporations drawn up by the Library of Parliament, in Canada's 84 crown corporations, 6 of the 84 presidents are women, which translates to only 19%.
Quebec is the only province to have passed legislation aimed at achieving gender parity. In 2006, Quebec passed Bill 53, An Act respecting the governance of state-owned enterprises and amending various legislative provisions, with a view to achieving gender parity on boards of directors of crown corporations by 2011. That legislation required that the boards of directors of all such corporations include an equal number of women and men as of December 14, 2011.
In December 2011, which marked the end of the five-year period by which crown corporations were to have achieved gender equality, 141 women and 128 men held positions on the boards of directors of 20 Quebec crown corporations. Women therefore made up the majority, or 52.4%. What a success.
I know my time is rapidly winding up, but I just want to affirm that countries that have legislative quotas have made tremendous progress. Even those that only require mandatory reporting and transparency have shown tremendous progress; they are well in front of Canada. It shows the talent is there. If we want to use it, we need to allow women to fully participate in our crown corporations.
I want to close with a rather, I think, indicative statement from the former head of the Conference Board of Canada, Anne Golden. At a 2010 Senate committee she said that, at the current rate of women's representation on boards and agencies, it would take 151 years before women are represented on boards to the same degree as men. This is unacceptable. That is why I am urging all my colleagues to support the bill today.
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to rise and speak in strong support of Bill C-473, an act to amend the Financial Administration Act (balanced representation). I commend my colleague, the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, for her hard work on this important initiative.
I first want to discuss what this bill is designed to accomplish. Then I want to address some of the arguments that may be aligned against it.
At the outset I want to say that I am deeply indebted to my constituent Ms. Nancy Singh, who has been a tireless researcher and passionate advocate for this very issue. Her analysis has been helpful to the presentation I will make today.
Bill C-473 aims to achieve gender parity in representation on the boards of directors of crown corporations over a period of six years. It is a gradual, phased-in initiative. It would also have the effect of indirectly forcing crown corporations to widen their search for qualified high-calibre applicants and target non-traditional recruitment pools.
What the bill would not do is in any way legislate measures for companies, private sector corporate entities, financial institutions, or the like. As an NDP opposition, we believe that taking steps to gender equity on government corporations would set an example desperately needed in the private sector to achieve balanced representation in the management of our important industries, and it would mirror the demographic makeup of our very country.
Canada is one of the few western countries with no policy or legislation on women's representation on corporate boards. Therefore, we are depriving ourselves of the talent women would provide to decision making. Most experts who have studied corporate governance have concluded that this is a positive contribution that should be made.
There are obviously enough women qualified to serve in these capacities. For many years I taught at a law school. Year after year women were in the majority of applicants. Also, that composition has been or is being achieved in many of our provincial superior courts. However, as I will discuss in a moment, that has not been the case on corporate boards or in the crown corporations of Canada.
In March the Toronto Star reported on a report entitled “Get on Board Corporate Canada”, written by Ms. Beata Caranci, the deputy chief economist of the TD Bank. She stated that nearly half the companies listed on the TSX composite index have only one female board member and just over a quarter have no women on their boards.
This is why an example must be set. She said that based on a widely accepted international measure, termed the GMI index, just 13.1% of corporate board seats in Canada were held by women in 2011, a figure that actually dropped from sixth to ninth place among industrialized nations over a three-year period. In other words, it is getting worse, not better.
There is no strategy at all, no cohesive government policy to address this issue.
Many have talked about a policy whereby, if a corporation cannot comply, it must explain why not. That has been the latest option in some of the private sector. As has been pointed out by no less than the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan, this voluntary measure is having little or no impact. That is why it recently asked the Ontario Securities Commission to require all public companies to have at least three women on their boards. It is not tokenism. Rather, it is a requirement that it recognizes to achieve better decisions on boards reflecting the diversity of this country, so we have a more holistic view of the environment in which these corporations act. It is no different in crown corporations.
Since 2008, we have had at least nine countries around the world—Norway, Spain, France, and Italy—that have some sort of quota representation requiring diversity on corporate boards. Other countries have set targets. What has Canada done? Canada has done nothing.
In 2012, the EU justice commissioner announced that European countries would be forced to hire a female candidate over an equally qualified male or face sanctions, unless women occupy at least 40% of board seats in Europe by 2020. Other countries are getting serious about this problem. What is Canada doing? Canada is doing nothing.
So what about crown corporations? Most recent data show that among the 2,000 Canadians who hold positions in more than 200 crown corporations, agencies, and commissions across this country, women are currently under-represented. They hold only 27% of senior management positions. The Library of Parliament tells us that according to the list of directors of crown corporations, out of 84 crown corporations in Canada, only 16 of those 84 presidents are women, or 19%. Women are over 50% of our population.
Quebec has done something. Quebec is the only province that has passed legislation to attain gender parity on the boards of their crown corporations. The goal was to do so by 2011. What has happened in that period? The results have been impressive. In December 2011, the deadline to have achieved parity, 141 women and 128 men held positions on the boards of 22 state-owned enterprises in Quebec. Therefore, women have become a majority of board members. The task now is to balance representation in each board of state-owned enterprises covered by the legislation. It can be done. It has been done in other European countries; it has been done in Quebec; it can be done at the federal level.
That said, what is the problem? Why would people be opposed to this, if indeed there are any people opposed? Let me suggest that there are probably three arguments.
The first might be that appointments to a board must be based solely on merit. We agree. However, there are so many women with the very credentials and skills needed who are not being brought forward that we have a problem. There are qualified people, and that has of course been proven elsewhere.
The second argument is that there somehow is a quota system, even a temporary one, and it imposes a rigid straitjacket on the appointment process. I too find the word “quota” an ugly word, and in Canada it has an ugly connotation and an ugly history. However, we must work to ensure that there are opportunities for women and girls coming forward. The government has to show leadership. I believe that introducing a quota is a last resort, but the status quo is simply not working. This must be a function of what is termed “effects discrimination”. We cannot look at the statistics I have quoted without coming to a different conclusion.
For example, a woman named Guylaine Saucier has been a very prominent director on Canadian corporate boards. She was on the board of the French food giant, Danone. When France announced it was creating a quota requiring corporate boards to have at least 40% women directors, she was initially an opponent. However, Ms. Saucier has come around to an entirely different view. The Globe and Mail reported:
“I’m beginning to evolve,” she confesses. “Yes, they appointed some token women, no doubt about that. But at the same time, I do see coming on board women that really were not known and are really good… And I’m sure I can bet you that they would never have been invited to boards without this legislation… I am more pleasantly surprised than I thought I would be”.
The third argument, I presume, is that the law is not necessary. It is necessary. The Quebec example obviously demonstrates that the opposite is true. A selection process can remain very simple, and a corrective measure like imposing quotas balances the representation on boards within a realistic timeframe. Women are willing to participate in the administration of large corporations, and certainly are more than ready to participate in large Canadian crown corporations.
It is proven that the simple passage of time does not translate into a significant increase of women on boards. We have tried, but nothing meaningful has occurred. It is time for action. It is time for Canada to join with its European counterparts, to join with the Province of Quebec, and to get into the 21st century, to show the kind of diversity that we desperately need in our boards.
I strongly support this initiative and hope my fellow members of Parliament will do so as well.
Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-473, which was introduced by my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles. Because I am fortunate enough to share a desk with her, we have had a number of discussions about this bill.
This bill would introduce progressive measures to address the under-representation of women on crown corporation boards of administration. This bill is about professional equality between men and women. Equality in every dimension results from a long process of democratization that leads to recognition that both sexes have the same rights.
Nevertheless, women with the same skill sets as men still do not have equal access to senior positions. This problem affects both boards of directors and senior management teams.
This bill expresses the political will to fight this type of inequality. Politicians can commit to taking meaningful action to foster gender equality in the realms where it is possible for them to do so. I want to emphasize that it takes political will to walk the talk and pass this bill, a bill that can change things.
Women entering the workforce was a major change for our democracy. Our country is relatively young, but in its early days, there were hardly any women in the labour force. Things changed very fast. Now women are in the workforce. The labour market has also become more democratic over time. We have to keep up the fight and take meaningful action to conquer this kind of inequality.
Economically, implementing social policies that encourage women to join the labour force is a win-win situation. It is a technical win because when there are more women in the labour force, there is more taxable income, which means higher tax revenues for the state.
It is also a win because when men and women play an equal role in governing public corporations, their decisions take a much wider range of perspectives into account. Influenced by different viewpoints, their decisions are more thoughtful and effective. It is no secret that men and women often see the same problem from different angles.
When we have the views of both men and women on how to address specific problems, the outcome is more effective. Companies are usually at an advantage when they choose to include more women on their boards of directors or management teams. In fact, research conducted by Catalyst has shown a positive correlation between a company's sound financial results and a high number of women in its executive ranks.
For instance, the crown corporation Canada Post says it has financial difficulties, but its vision is probably more masculine. If more women had been on its board of directors, the visions would have been more varied and the corporation would have taken more acceptable and effective actions.
The vision of Canada Post would have been much broader. As we can see in the case of private companies, such a vision leads to better financial results. I think the government would benefit from adopting this type of policy, since it has a positive effect on financial results.
This legislation remains an effective tool for achieving the goal of gender parity. By examining international experience in the area, we can see that, unfortunately, voluntary incentives in no way lead to the expected results. When you rely on people's goodwill and you encourage them without putting legal measures in place, you will not achieve the desired results. In our example, what really matters is the outcome. Once we realize that a voluntary approach does not work, I think it is very important to take a stand and pass the appropriate legislation.
In addition, when legislation is not passed, inaction often seems to reinforce inequalities. The longer we wait to pass a piece of legislation, the more the situation worsens or at least does not improve. I think this clearly demonstrates the need to pass this legislation.
Once the bill comes into force, the objective of ensuring gender parity on the boards of crown corporations must be achieved within six years. Practically speaking, this means that it is important to pass such legislation quite quickly.
A gradual approach is used so as not to shake things up too much all at once and to allow people to adapt and slowly achieve their objectives. Quite often this means there will be one or two more women a year. At the end of six years, the target will be met. This is done gradually to give the organizations the time to develop new recruitment strategies. They will definitely need it. Often, women need to be encouraged to join boards of directors and they have to be sought out. Nonetheless, there are just as many well-qualified women as men. Sometimes women need to be sought out and encouraged to join boards of directors. The skills that these women have acquired and developed throughout their careers would be taken into consideration. This timeframe would allow the crown corporations to explore new labour pools and adjust their recruitment policies in order to bring qualified executives into their boards of administration.
The NDP has clearly demonstrated that it is leading the way in Canadian politics, and one way we have proven that is with our nominations. Fifty percent of NDP candidates are women. This has been good for democracy. I think I am a good example among my peers. By doing something tangible we are leading by example. The NDP currently has the largest female caucus in Parliament. It is important to do something tangible.
If women do not make up 50% of the parties' candidates, then it will be hard to have more female members of Parliament. We have to force the hand of the authorities in place. By having female candidates, we are able to have female MPs. The same goes for boards of directors. By passing legislation and forcing their hand a bit, we will end up with excellent women contributing to our crown corporations. The government can then also contribute to the increased use of professional practices that are based on balanced representation and that, I hope, will go beyond those of the public enterprises in question.
In other words, the bill before us can truly provide a concrete strategic advantage to our crown corporations. What is more, considering that some crown corporations are in financial difficulty, this might even help them face the future much more effectively.
I think this bill will truly benefit Canada, and I recommend that all members support it.
Hélène LeBlanc NDP LaSalle—Émard, QC
Mr. Speaker, as both a woman and a member of the NDP, I am pleased to support Bill C-473, which was introduced by the hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles. This bill is designed to ensure that crown corporations have balanced representation.
I would like to talk about my own experience in politics. In 2009, I had the opportunity to run in a municipal election as a candidate for Project Montréal, a party in the Island of Montreal that encouraged women to run in municipal politics. That was my first experience, and then I had the opportunity to run again, this time for the NDP. The NDP encourages women to run for politics, and we can see the results.
That led us—the caucus and me, as a female politician—to think about the obstacles that keep some women from going into politics. The ripple effect from the 2011 election and the fact that many women ran for political office is proof of the NDP's desire to encourage women to join various fields of endeavour. All of that relates to Bill C-473.
Government is often regarded as a mover and innovator when it comes to building a better society, and this bill does just that. It sets out principles that would allow Canadian crown corporations to gradually work towards better gender parity.
We need to do this. Women have come a long way in recent decades, but there is still a long way to go. The document titled Women in Canada 2010-2011, drafted by Statistics Canada and Status of Women Canada, notes that there is greater representation of women in management positions. In 2009, women represented 37% of those employed in management positions, up from 30% in 1987. However, women have greater representation in lower-level management positions as compared to upper management positions. In 2009, women held 31.6% of upper management positions, but 37.4% of management positions at other levels.
There is still progress to be made, and it is not because women are not qualified for the job. The latest statistical profile from Statistics Canada shows that more women are completing post-secondary studies, are very well educated and can rise to the challenge.
Mr. Speaker, my riding of LaSalle—Émard is lucky to be represented by a woman, and furthermore, the mayor of the riding is also a woman. Several municipal councillors are women, and that is also the case in the Sud-Ouest borough, which is next to my riding. More and more women are rising to the challenge and answering the call. That has to continue. We have to eliminate barriers by establishing progressive policies that will lead to a fairer representation of women in crown corporations.
When the government sets an example with crown corporations, the private sector often follows suit. That is our hope.
An article in today's Globe and Mail notes that women account for 20% of seats in boards of directors, especially those of very large Canadian companies. However, if we consider small, medium-sized and large businesses overall, this statistic drops to 12%. That is really not a lot.
If the government sets an example, as the Quebec government did, by establishing progressive measures leading to increased gender parity in crown corporations, I am sure that private businesses would follow suit.
What is interesting about Quebec's example is that not only did it implement measures, but it also ensured that they produced results. Quebec measures results against goals, studies the barriers that could keep women from executive positions and finds ways to help them overcome some of those barriers.
I want the government and the Minister of Status of Women to show some leadership to ensure that there is balanced representation on boards of crown corporations. This will create a ripple effect and ensure that women—who represent more than 50% of this country's wealth, as we have already heard—have an opportunity to actively participate in running crown corporations and also private companies.
It is time for this government to show some leadership and commit to ensuring that more and more women are able to assume management roles and that they have the means to take on these positions and be involved in politics. By “means”, I do not necessarily mean financial means, although that helps. We must ensure that there are no barriers hindering women's promotion to these positions.
By breaking down these barriers, we would not only be helping Canadian women, but also advancing our society so that it is more just and fair and so that everyone has the opportunity to participate for the greater good. This has been proven in the research that my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles did when drafting this bill. It has been shown that diversity, including gender diversity, on governing councils and boards of directors can have a positive impact on debate and dialogue. Diversity also encourages boards to consider all aspects when making decisions and to take into account the experience of every individual on these boards.
A bill to achieve balanced representation on the boards of crown corporations will not only enable women to be promoted to these types of positions, but will also enrich Canadian society as a whole, in many respects.
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am really pleased to have this opportunity to rise again in the House today to continue the debate on my bill, Bill C-473, which proposes changes to the Financial Administration Act.
The purpose of the bill is to improve the representation of women on boards of directors of crown corporations and only crown corporations. I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate that gender equality must be a priority for Canadians. In its Constitution, Canada recognizes that men and women are equal. However, when it comes to economic independence, equality in decision-making, violence against women, pay equity and other issues, there remains a great deal of work to be done in order for men and women to be equal in economic, social and political spheres in Canada.
In previous debates, some of my colleagues raised a number of questions that should be clarified for everyone's benefit. I hope my responses here today will answer their questions. First, I would like to remind everyone that the heads of crown corporations—even though those corporations operate at arm's length of the government—are appointed by the ministers. The government therefore has the power to take the necessary corrective action to put an end to any undue discrimination currently practiced against women in the hiring process.
During my last speech, my main argument was that Canadian women are more qualified than ever, and accordingly, the government needs to bring in measures that maximize the potential of all that talent. Thus, I have to be critical of the parliamentary secretary's tactic of using misinformation when she stated the opposite of what I said. As I explained last time, the problem has nothing to do with qualifications, but rather with accessibility. Women have the skills needed, but they are not recruited as much because their resumés do not make it onto the minister's desk.
The solution is simple. We have to make sure that, during the appointments process, CVs from women and men with equal skill sets are provided to the minister's office. Quebec is a perfect example of how that can work. Contrary to what the parliamentary secretary said, there have been no problems and no negative repercussions on performance. There has been nothing rigid or arbitrary about this process, simply a pool of male and female candidates to choose from. My colleague opposite also presented an argument based on the effectiveness and benefits of the voluntary measures put forward by the government. Norway tried the voluntary approach, but it did not work. The Conference Board of Canada says that it will take another 150 years to reach parity if we rely solely on the voluntary approach.
I also want to mention the brave step that Morocco took in introducing legislation after the Arab Spring. Female representation in that Arab country went from 19% to 50%. Here in Canada, the voluntary approach has resulted in women being under-represented on boards of crown corporations and holding only 27% of senior management positions. How can the government claim to be doing everything it should be doing when the figures are clear and do not lie? There has been no progress on this issue. That is clear proof that the voluntary approach does not work and does not produce the expected results.
In a speech she delivered last fall, Christine Lagarde, managing director of the IMF, supported the introduction of quotas “because nothing has changed in the past 25 or 30 years!” I would therefore urge all of my colleagues to recognize the obvious and take appropriate measures to ensure that we achieve the goals Canada wishes to set for itself in terms of gender parity.
In response to other questions that some of my colleagues had, I would like to add that I am very aware that this bill does not fix all of the problems related to women's rights, especially not access to senior positions. However, I sincerely believe that Bill C-473 is a step forward, a corrective measure. Without it, a laissez-faire approach will change nothing.
I strongly suggest that we refer this bill to a committee so that we can give more thought to issues such as transgender individuals and sanctions in cases where boards do not achieve parity by the deadline. Experts, including people who were in charge of implementing the new process in Quebec, will be able to advise us on this matter.
It is our responsibility as parliamentarians to pass corrective legislation so that women can benefit fully from their rights. The NDP has always been and will continue to be a champion of women's rights.
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
In my opinion, the yeas have it.
And five or more members having risen:
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
Pursuant to Standing Order 93, the division stands deferred until Wednesday, February 5, 2014, immediately before the time provided for private members' business.
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
moved:
That, in the opinion of the House, Canadian consumers face unfair Automated Teller Machine (ATM) fees as a result of an uncompetitive marketplace and that the House call on the government to take action in Budget 2014 to protect consumers by limiting ATM fees.
Mr. Speaker, before I begin, it is important to inform you that I am splitting my time with the fantastic MP from Québec.
I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak to my motion, the NDP-sponsored motion calling on the Minister of Finance to announce action in budget 2014 to protect consumers by limiting ATM fees.
From my great riding of Sudbury to St. John's, from Val-d'Or to Victoria, every Canadian has at some point stood in front of an ATM in stunned silence staring at the screen showing just how much they have been gouged for taking out cash from their very own bank account.
Canadians are angry, and rightly so, that their families are being nickelled and dimed by banks reaping record-breaking profits while they struggle to put food on the table and pay for the other necessities of life.
According to the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, withdrawal fees can cost consumers as much as $5.90 per transaction at a bank-operated ATM. If we contrast the cost being forced down the throats of Canadian consumers with those being charged to consumers in other developed countries, it makes the cost of using an ATM in Canada even more unsettling.
For instance, in many European Union countries, withdrawals from ATMs are free. In the U.K., 97% of transactions are free of cost. In fact, a report from the British Bankers' Association comparing its banking system to those of ten other developed nations found that Canada had the highest fees for ATM withdrawals from their own bank.
This raises the question of why people in the U.K. and Europe get a break from their banks while ordinary Canadians continue to get gouged. Although estimates range, analysts agree that Canadians pay somewhere in the range of $400 million a year for the privilege of using ATMs, representing nearly 5% of the revenue of the biggest banks in Canada.
Thus, it is not surprising that Canadian banks are reaping record profits, amounting to $29.4 billion in 2013, up 5% from last year despite the weak economy, because they are doing it on the backs of hard-working Canadian families.
How did we enter this cycle of ever-increasing fees? Surcharging on ATM withdrawals have become standard operating procedure for Canada's banks since 1996, when the ban on surcharges was lifted following a ruling by Canada's Competition Bureau. In 2000, many banks began adding a new convenience fee in addition to their Interac fees for those consumers who use an ATM owned by a different institution or operator. This has led to ATM use becoming more and more expensive.
The most shocking part of ATM fees is that on average the real cost of processing a transaction today is estimated to be around 36¢. Where does the rest of the money go? We know that 0.7¢ goes to offsetting the cost of operating Canada's world-leading, not-for-profit Interac network. While there is obviously a cost to operating and maintaining these terminals themselves, the rest is going to pad the profits of the big banks, the big card networks, and independent machine owners.
Currently, there is no limit on what the operator of an ATM can charge a consumer for using their machine. This is unfair, and it is a policy we as parliamentarians must address head on. These fees are rip-offs, plain and simple, and the government has the power to act immediately to drive down the cost of ATM fees.
Some of my colleagues on the other side of the House may think that $2, for example, is not a burdensome cost for Canadians, but here is the unfair thing about it. When the average person going to an ATM machine takes out $20 or $50 to get them through a day or two, that person is charged $2.50 for accessing that money, yet someone else may withdraw $500, and they pay the same $2.50. This means that the financial burden of ATM fees falls disproportionately on low-income Canadians, and that is grossly unfair.
That is why groups such as the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, Option consommateurs, and ACORN support the NDP call to cap ATM fees.
At one point, the Minister of Finance seemed receptive to the idea of limiting these outrageous ATM fees. In 2007, in response to the NDP campaign to ban ATM fees, the minister told the House of Commons finance committee that the government agreed with the NDP that the banks ought to do something for consumers with respect to ATM fees and to try harder. However, in the end, after talking to the banks, the minister climbed down, and no action was taken to protect consumers from these outrageous fees.
Now, because of the minister's lack of action, ATM fees continue to rise for lower-income Canadians such as seniors, students, and persons with disabilities, for whom the minister expressed particular concern.
While the Conservatives talk a big game about the importance of protecting consumers from the most abusive practices of Canada's largest corporations, their failure to crack down on ATM fees and the plethora of other consumer abuses undermines this claim. Here is an opportunity for the Conservatives to prove they are serious and actually do something tangible for consumers. A failure to do so will make the government's priorities clear: Bay Street over Main Street.
The minister's friends at the banks will argue that capping ATM fees would significantly decrease the number of ATMs that banks offer to Canadians. However, according to the World Bank, Canada has the highest number of ATMs per capita in the world, with 204 ATMs for every 100,000 people. The OECD average is 74 ATMs per 100,000 people. However, if we think about the cost that Canadians have to endure every time they use an ATM, it is no wonder the banks have so many of these ATMs out there.
Moreover, the banks claim that the ATM fees must be high enough to cover all chequing account-related costs. That is undermined by the fact that banks also charge many other high consumer fees under the premise of covering those exact same costs. Canada's banks charge consumers scores of other fees for maintaining and accessing funds in their chequing accounts. There are monthly fees, overdraft fees, failed payment fees, fees for failing to maintain a minimum balance, e-transfer fees, and many more.
Given that banks are already recouping their costs through these other fees, the NDP's call for a 50¢ per transaction cap for ATM fees seems entirely reasonable. With a cost of 36¢ per transaction to the bank, this would still give them the ability to recoup their operating costs while maintaining a healthy profit margin. It would also restore a sense of fairness and balance to what is truly an asymmetrical relationship between consumers and their bank.
The Conservatives claim to be on the side of consumers, but time and time again this Conservative government, like the Liberals before them, has sided with the big banks by refusing to crack down on excessive bank fees. New Democrats have put forward a practical solution that would restore a certain amount of fairness to the relationship between consumers, their families, and the banks. By supporting the motion and including a provision to limit ATM fees in the upcoming budget, the government has an opportunity to help hard-working Canadian families who are already overburdened by household debt and are struggling to maintain their way of life.
I conclude that a failure to do so will demonstrate that hard-working Canadians cannot trust the Conservative government to do what is best for them and their families. We need experienced leadership that puts Canadians, not bank profits, first. Canadians deserve better.
Opposition Motion—ATM FeesBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders
Calgary Centre-North Alberta
Conservative
Michelle Rempel ConservativeMinister of State (Western Economic Diversification)
Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House, we are all for consumer protection too. We put forth a lot of work over the last year in terms of making sure that consumers are put first.
I have a couple of questions, which I hope are generic and non-partisan, around this particular motion. When my colleague is talking about the $2 fees, is he looking at customers withdrawing cash from their home branch or those who are withdrawing from other branches and generically owned ATMs as well? Does my colleague know what the aggregate cost per year would be to Canadians?
Also, do you know what the revenue created by those independently owned ATMs would be compared to the larger banks? In terms of small business ownership, what would the impact be if it was capped? I am just wondering if you consulted with these stakeholders in terms of what the impact would be on their business.
The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin
The Minister of State was asking me the question, but I believe it is her colleague, the hon. member for Sudbury, whom she would like to answer the question.
The hon. member for Sudbury.
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am more than happy to answer as best I can.
The first thing I need to make clear is that what we are talking about here today are the ATMs that are operated by our federally regulated financial institutions, the chartered banks. The ATMs that are privately owned in pubs or corner stores are in provincial jurisdiction. What we are talking about specifically are the financial institutions.
I have an account at a specific bank here in Canada, as most Canadians do, or a credit union, and I pay a monthly fee. I am going to make this number up. Say I pay $14.95 and I have 20 transactions that will I not be charged for. Once I go over that limit, even though I am using the same bank, the one that I am a member of, I get what is called a regular maintenance fee. The banks eliminate what they call a foreign fee. The foreign fee is actually a convenience fee, which is charged when using another bank's ATM. Then I have to pay a dollar for that, plus pay the other bank two bucks. It is starting to skyrocket out of control because it is unregulated. We need to hamper this and that is what this bill and motion are talking about today.