Debates of Feb. 3rd, 2014

Opposition Motion—ATM Fees

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud today to once again defend my constituents who are fed up with seeing their purchasing power disappear like melting snow while the government stands idly by and does nothing.

The people of Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles are fed up with having to pay all kinds of ridiculous fees at a time when household debt in Canada is increasing at an alarming rate while salaries are stagnating or shrinking.

The fees charged by the major banks and white label ATM owners are part of the price Canadian families pay simply to access their money. This situation is patently unacceptable. For that reason I rise today to support the motion by my colleague from Sudbury.

Among other things, this motion calls on the government to take action in budget 2014 to protect consumers by limiting ATM fees. Canadian consumers face unfair ATM fees because of an uncompetitive marketplace.

In order to fully understand the issue before the House today, it is important to review certain facts and look at where matters stand in other OECD countries.

ATM surcharging is not regulated in Canada. ATMs come under federal jurisdiction, whereas white label ATMs fall under provincial jurisdiction.

The ban on ATM surcharging was lifted 18 years ago, further to a ruling by Canada’s Competition Bureau. The lifting of the ban opened the door to abusive practices on the part of the banks, which have regularly increased ATM withdrawal fees.

Furthermore, in 2000, many banks began charging convenience fees to their depositors who use another institution’s ATM or a white label ATM, over and above the Interac fees charged. According to the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, ATM withdrawal fees currently range from zero to $5.90 per transaction.

Three different types of fees are charged to consumers who only want access to their own money on deposit with a financial institution. There are standard fees charged by banks to consumers for withdrawing funds from any bank. These fees are often included in the overall services provided by the consumer’s banking institution.

In addition, the consumer’s bank charges a network access fee when its depositors withdraw money from a non-bank-owned ATM. These fees are over and above standard bank account fees.

Finally, white label ATM owners as well as financial institutions charge “non-depositors” convenience or network fees for using their ATMs. These convenience fees are in addition to the network access fees and standard bank account fees.

An ATM user is considered a non-client when he or she uses a debit card from a different financial institution.

To look at a very concrete example, we could say that a client who withdraws $20 from an ATM belonging to another bank, because his own financial institution has no machine in a given area, may be charged between $1 and $5.90 to make a single withdrawal. This represents a cost of 5% to 29.5% for a single withdrawal.

Clearly, the consumer should not have to pay such a staggering proportion of the amount of his withdrawal to get his money, when it has been shown that the actual cost of a transaction for the financial institution is about 36¢.

These are the same financial institutions that reap billions of dollars in profits every year, while families keep tightening their belts more and more. We are talking about $29.4 billion in profit in 2012, representing a 5% increase over the previous year, despite the weak economy.

Other countries have also seen major changes in the banking sector and their citizens’ consumption patterns over the past few decades. If we look at how these countries have handled the transformation, it seems obvious to me that Canada has plenty of models that could serve as inspiration for establishing a better balance between fair treatment for consumers and profits for the banks.

Indeed, in a number of European countries there are no fees for withdrawals from ATMs. In the United Kingdom, 97% of withdrawals are free of charge, as a result of pressure from the public. The Central Bank of Ireland bans ATM user fees. In Austria and Finland, cash withdrawals are free for any owner of a card for the national network of ATMs.

For their part, the banks contend that caps on ATM user fees lead to a significant reduction in the number of machines they make available to Canadians. However, it should be noted that Canada already has the highest number of automated banking machines per capita in the world.

There are over 60,000 bank machines in Canada and 18,303 of these are bank-owned ABMs. According to the World Bank, Canada has the highest number of ATMs per 100,000 people, that is, 204. The average for OECD countries is 74 ATMs per 100,000 people.

I think that rather than closing ATMs in order to save money to the detriment of people living in rural areas, banks should find a fair balance between profit, physical access to ATMs and appropriate fees imposed on the consumer.

It is the NDP’s opinion that a cap of 50¢ per transaction is a reasonable way of reaching this fair balance, as it will enable the banks to maintain a certain profit level for an activity that of course does cost money, while at the same time giving consumers a bit of space. This is only one in a series of changes that the NDP is proposing. It is a step forward in defending the interests of Canada's middle class.

If the government really meant what it said in its last Speech from the Throne, it would not wait until the next election to give Canadians election-style gifts. It has to act now with the 2014 budget to show Canadian families that it can take meaningful action to ensure they have more cash in their pockets at the end of the month.

Canadians deserve better. They deserve a little breathing room. They deserve a paycheque that covers their needs and allows them to live decently without going into debt. We can take practical measures now to make life more affordable for Canadian families, and that is what the NDP wants to do.

Is the government ready to do that? I hope that we will all vote in favour of this motion to stand up for the interests of the people we are supposed to serve: our constituents.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am interested in knowing to what degree the NDP would like to have a universal cap of 50¢ per transaction implemented. They have been talking a great deal about the banking industry, in particular, our major banks, whose ATMs make up a significant but minority percentage of the ATM machines out there across Canada.

Would she in an ideal world want to see that 50¢ cap incorporated for all ATM machines?

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the motion as written applies only to existing ATMs.

Banks will still make a huge profit even if they charge only 50¢.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles for her speech. She pointed out that the cost of living is going up, but people are not making more money.

I would like her to comment on another aspect related to our economy. Can she comment on the fact that we have lost so many well-paid full-time jobs in various industries? I understand the Quebec region has been hit hard by industries shutting down. Those well-paid jobs are often replaced by less stable, poorly paid jobs.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member will understand that that is not exactly the topic that is on the agenda. However, that is indeed the case. One could say that our well-paying jobs have been replaced by ATMs.

The banks are making bigger profits in part because they have replaced staff who dealt directly with the customers who went to the bank. Those employees have been replaced by ATMs. If one million people per hour pay $2 to use an ATM, the banks instantly make a $2 million profit. In the past, there were more jobs in the banks and people went to the counter. That was a lot more costly for banks. Indeed, they have eliminated those high-quality jobs.

Perhaps the banks need to stop wanting to increase their profits all the time and think about whether people might stop using them one day because they will no longer have the means to pay for it.

[Jonathan Tremblay, NDP, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her excellent speech.

I have noticed in the House today that Liberal and Conservative members have asked only two or three questions, which we have already answered and on which we all agree. I have to wonder why they keep asking the same questions. That raises certain doubts.

The motion is simple: all we are asking for is that it be regulated. We have proposed a cap of 50¢, which we have left open. I do not understand why the members opposite would not want to leave consumers a little financial wiggle room.

I would like to hear my colleague's thoughts on that.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we need to leave consumers with a little more pocket money because families really do have too much debt, and that can lead to social unrest.

This morning, we heard about ATM installation, upkeep and maintenance costs. I was doubled over with laughter. Just now, I heard a member ask whether people who live farther away should be charged more.

Why are they asking such questions when we know that it is simpler and quicker to use an ATM? The money accumulates at the same time everywhere. As I pointed out, if one million people pay $5 to a cable company to watch a movie, the company makes $5 million, less maintenance, upkeep and regional costs. It is terrible to think that way. Profits continue to increase. In 2012, banks turned a profit of $29.4 billion.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity today to speak on such an important topic. Let me begin by saying that I find it passing strange that the NDP members are trying to label themselves as the party of consumer protection when it has been our Conservative government that has actually taken action to protect Canadian consumers.

What has the NDP done for consumers? The answer is nothing. Unlike the NDP, our government recognizes that financial decisions are some of the most important choices Canadians make. At the same time, we also recognize that financial products are becoming increasingly complex. Our government believes that the cornerstone of any consumer protection framework is one in which there is competition, fees are disclosed, and consumers can exercise choice.

That is why our government has engaged with the banking industry on many occasions on the issue of ATM fees. In fact, we have highlighted that some consumers such as seniors, the disabled, and students may not have access to different banking options. Several banks acknowledged our concerns and responded by expanding ATM access in or near colleges and universities to help students avoid fees, unveiling low-fee accounts for seniors and students and improving access for the disabled.

The NDP may not be aware, but we have an entire federal agency devoted to consumer issues, the Federal Consumer Association of Canada, or FCAC as it is frequently referred to. Through the FCAC, consumers can access information on banking costs such as ATM fees. The FCAC developed innovative tools to help Canadians understand the different types of financial products in the marketplace. For example, in addition to information on ATM fees, the FCAC has resources to help consumers shop for the most suitable credit card, as well as banking packages that most effectively meet their needs. The NDP should know that this objective, reliable, and free resource is available to all Canadians to help them make sense of the everyday financial questions they face.

I would encourage the members opposite to take some time today and visit the FCAC's website. They will see how this service is helping Canadians acquire the skills they need to be informed financial consumers. However, that is not all we are doing to help consumers.

The NDP might be interested to know that in 2010, our government introduced regulations to enhance Canada's consumer protection framework. These regulations protect consumers by requiring clear and timely disclosure of financial information related to credit frauds. Specifically, these regulations mandate an effective minimum 21-day interest free grace period on all credit card purchases when a consumer pays the outstanding balance in full; lower interest rates by mandating allocations of payments in favour of the consumer; allow consumers to keep better track of their personal finances by requiring express consent for credit limit increases; limit debt collection practices at financial institutions used in contacting a consumer to collect on a debt; provide clear information in credit contracts and application forms through a summary box that sets out key features such as interest rates and fees; help consumers manage their credit card obligations by providing information on the time it would take to fully repay the balance if only the minimum payment is made every month; and mandate advance disclosure of interest rate increases prior to their taking effect, even if this information has been included in the credit contract.

In addition, these regulations require that any disclosure by financial institutions be in plain language and presented in a manner that is clear, simple, and not misleading. However, for a reason known only to themselves, the NDP members did not think that clear and transparent disclosure is important for Canadian consumers. That is right: the NDP voted against each and every one of these measures.

I find it the height of hypocrisy for the NDP to stand here today and pretend to be on the side of consumers. What party that claims to defend the interests of consumers votes against increased transparency and disclosure on credit products? Apparently the NDP does.

Not to worry, we will not be discouraged by the NDP. Our Conservative government continues to introduce measures to protect consumers. For example, in action plan 2010 our government committed to bring greater clarity to the calculation of mortgage prepayment penalties. However, in typical NDP fashion, it voted against this as well. Clearly the NDP does not want Canadians to have important information at their disposal when they want to purchase their home, possibly the most important financial decision a family will ever make.

Now let us take a close look at what NDP members have voted against.

They voted against providing families an explanation of the differences between mortgage products and the prepayment privileges that they can use to pay off their mortgages faster without having a prepayment charge. They voted against providing families with an explanation of how prepayment charges are calculated and a description of the factors that could cause prepayment charges to change over time. They voted against requiring banks to provide clear disclosure on the amounts families must pay to the lender if they prepay their mortgage and on how the amounts are calculated. They also voted against allowing the borrower the opportunity to speak with a staff member who is knowledgeable about mortgage prepayments.

I have asked this question already, but I have to ask it again. How can NDP members pretend to be on the side of consumers when they opposed our government's action to provide Canadian families with clear information before making the most important financial decision of their lives?

Thankfully, our Conservative government understands the importance of having this kind of information available, and others agree. Here is what the Canadian Bankers Association had to say:

With the new Code, every year bank customers will receive information that will help them better understand mortgage prepayment charges and how they are calculated if they want to pay their mortgage off early. The Code also builds on the advice that banks have always provided to make sure the customer is making an informed decision.

Thanks to this code, a young family can make the decision to buy a first home with confidence. Now that is what I call real action for consumers.

Unfortunately, there are still more examples of our government's consumer protection measures that the NDP voted against.

As part of economic action plan 2011, our Conservative government built on our strong record of consumer protection by introducing even more measures that benefit consumers. The NDP may not realize this, but a number of credit card issuers offer what is referred to as “credit card cheques”. These credit card cheques allow funds to be withdrawn directly from a credit card and are considered to be cash advances, which can accrue higher interest rates and fees and do not allow for an interest-free grace period. To ensure that consumers were not taken advantage of by these products, our government banned the unsolicited use of these credit card cheques.

Clearly, if NDP members really cared about protecting consumers from high interest rate products, they would have voted to ban this practice with us. Rather, they voted against restricting the use of these products. However that is not all they opposed; there is more.

In recent years, many Canadians have come to rely on the use of prepaid payment products, commonly referred to as “prepaid credit cards” for their daily purchases. Our Conservative government believes it is important that, when Canadians use these products, they understand what fees and conditions apply. By having this information, they can make informed financial decisions. In many cases, there were fees associated with prepaid credit cards that were not entirely clear to consumers. Thanks to our Conservative government, new regulations were introduced to ensure consumers are informed on fees and requirements related to prepaid credit cards.

For example, our government's regulations require that fees be disclosed to consumers in an information box displayed prominently on the product's exterior packaging. Furthermore, they require that other information associated with these products is provided in a manner that is clear, simple, and not misleading, prior to the card being issued.

These regulations also limit certain business practices that could be harmful to consumers. For example, they prohibit the amount on the card from expiring and they prohibit any maintenance fees for at least one year after activation.

These regulations will ensure that Canadians get the full value of their hard-earned dollars when using these products. Unfortunately, this is yet another proposal that the NDP did not support. Shamefully, the NDP voted against it in yet another vote against Canadian consumers.

Not only do NDP members continually vote against the interest of consumers, but their love for high taxes clearly shows that they have no desire to save consumers money. If NDP members had their way, they would introduce a $21 billion carbon tax that would raise the price of everything.

Our Conservative government would never do that. In fact, we have been doing the opposite. The fact of the matter is that this government has kept more money in the pockets of hard-working Canadians and their families than any other government.

In fact, since 2006, we have cut taxes over 160 times, reducing the federal tax burden to its lowest level in over 50 years. Overall, our strong record of tax relief has meant that the typical Canadian family will save almost $3,400 in 2014.

We have cut taxes in every way government collects them. This includes personal taxes, consumption taxes, business taxes, excise taxes, and much more. Unfortunately, the NDP has voted against each and every one of these tax cuts.

Let us list off some of the tax cuts that the NDP has voted against. It voted against cutting the lowest personal income tax rate. It voted against increasing the amount Canadians can earn without paying tax. It voted against pension income splitting for seniors. It voted against reducing the GST from 7% to 6% to 5%, which has put over $1,000 back in the pockets of the average family. It voted against the introduction and enhancement of the working income tax benefit. It voted against the tax free savings account, the most important savings vehicle since RRSPs. It voted against increasing the age credit, the pension income credit, and more.

More Canadians and their families are keeping more of their hard-earned money in their pockets because of the low tax agenda of our Conservative government. Furthermore, this tax relief is helping families at all income levels. Our government's low tax plan has helped remove over 1 million low-income Canadians from the tax rolls, including 380,000 seniors. For the NDP to suggest that our government does not stand up for consumers is simply absurd. There can be only one explanation: the NDP must be ashamed of itself for voting against each and every one of these consumer protection measures and against each and every one of our tax cuts.

As I said earlier, the NDP's indifference toward Canadian consumers will not discourage our Conservative government. We will continue to stand up for consumers. We will empower consumers, and we are taking bold steps to do so.

In today's marketplace, financial literacy has become a necessary skill for Canadians. Financial literacy, however, is not just a skill for adults. It has to start at an early age, and it should continue throughout one's life. As technology marches forward, so has its effects on financial services and products. With financial markets innovating constantly, it can be difficult for Canadians to manage the exceedingly complicated financial decisions they need to make. That is why financial literacy is a skill more relevant today than ever before. Clear and concise financial information and increased financial literacy can translate into higher savings levels and decreased indebtedness. It gives consumers the information they need to select the financial products and services that are right for them.

Our government is firmly committed to strengthening financial literacy across the country. Let me be clear: with economic action plan 2009, we created the task force on financial literacy with a mandate to make recommendations for a comprehensive national strategy to strengthen Canadians' financial literacy. It was this report that resulted in our government introducing legislation to create the office of the financial literacy leader. The financial literacy leader will work collaboratively with stakeholders and coordinate their efforts across Canada to contribute to financial literacy initiatives.

It is clear that the NDP does not have the interests of Canadian consumers at heart. While it claims to be an advocate for consumer protection, the fact of the matter is that it has done nothing to help consumers. On the other hand, our Conservative government has, time and time again, stood up and taken action to ensure that consumers are protected and have access to the information they need to make informed financial decisions.

We have no intention of resting on our laurels. Our Conservative government committed in the recent Speech from the Throne to further expand Canada's consumer protection framework. Our government made a commitment to take further action to expand no-cost banking options available to Canadians.

The NDP should stop pretending to advocate for consumer interests. It is clear from its record that it has no interest whatsoever in consumer issues or protecting consumers in any way. If the NDP truly cared about the Canadian consumer, it would have supported the government on the countless consumer measures we have introduced.

It is because of the NDP's hypocrisy on this issue that I will be voting against this motion, and I urge all members of the House to oppose it as well.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to provide another statistic, and I would appreciate it if my Conservative colleague would answer my question.

The profits of Canada's six largest banks rose from $19.1 billion in 2007—the Conservative government came to power in 2006—to $28.4 billion in 2012. Clearly, the Conservative government has really helped Canada's six largest banks, given that their profits increased by $10 billion between 2007 and 2012.

How does my colleague explain this?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, our government remains focused on what matters most to Canadians, and that is jobs, growth, and long-term prosperity. We have the strongest economy relative to all other G7 nations. We have created over one million net new jobs. We have the most sound banking sector for the sixth year in a row, rated by the World Economic Forum.

Only the NDP would consider profit to be a dirty word. It is passing strange. I would expect, from what the New Democrats are saying here today, that they want to go back to the founding fathers of the CCF in 1932-33, back to the Regina manifesto where they called for the nationalization of banks. This is where they seem to be going.

Profit is not a dirty word in our country. Profits mean jobs, prosperity, and opportunity for Canadians.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague, the member for York Centre, for a very passionate speech and a very timely one, because we are talking today about ATM banking fees, which are very important for our consumers. For example, I deal with a bank but I know that because there is a free market I have the opportunity for convenience. I can choose whether to withdraw money at a bank that I do not have an agreement with—that is available to me—or go to my own bank, where there is, perhaps, no payment for that.

One of my NDP colleagues brought up the issue with our banks and profits. I was wondering if the member could comment about the importance of a strong banking system, especially with our pension plans? Most pension plans are invested in our banking sector, even the Canada pension plan. The NDP says it is consumer friendly, but has he ever heard of something called the $20 billion carbon tax? Perhaps he could comment on that.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member hit the nail right on the head by saying that the New Democrats may call for reduction of ATM fees and they say profits are bad, but what they want to do at the end of the day is to impose a $21 billion carbon tax. That is just for starters.

It is interesting to go back, as I did the other night. I had absolutely nothing to do so I took out the old NDP platform from the 2011 election. What I found in there was that the NDP called for a credit card fee cap at 5% above prime. This would have encouraged more people to go further into personal debt and would have led to a huge problem in our consumer sector. It is interesting because the NDP seems to be calling for very anti-consumer friendly policies that would only hurt job creation efforts.

I suggest New Democrats get on board with our government, on the side of Canadians and Canadian consumers, to help create jobs, growth, and long-term prosperity in our country.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is fairly simple. Does the member believe there is any room whatsoever, in a targeted way, where there are situations where there might be a need for the government to look at ways to ensure that banking fees are in fact reasonable, making specific reference to ATMs? Could he further expand on that by looking into, for example, certain areas, whether in rural or even in certain urban areas, where banking facilities are maybe not as numerous as they are in the suburbs? If he could provide comment on that I would appreciate it.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, 70% of ATMs in our country are considered to be white label. White label ATMs are under provincial jurisdiction. That means only 30% are covered by federal jurisdiction. Therefore, for us as a government to be heavy-handed, as the NDP wants us to be, in a command-style economy, to go in there and perhaps even nationalize banks and impose a limit on ATM fees, would create a lack of confidence in our economy. It would create a Stalinist kind of approach to government that we in our country certainly do not accept.

The question from the member for Winnipeg North was a good one. It would be difficult for us as a government. We would prefer the banking sector co-operate with us, as it has done so far. We find that to be a much better system than imposing the heavy hand of government.

[Dany Morin, NDP, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my Conservative colleague likes to talk numbers. I do not want to talk about $1 million; I would rather talk about the 50¢ ATM transaction fee limit that the future NDP government will propose.

Right now, when someone withdraws money, it costs the financial institution a mere 36¢. We do not want a free market because, unfortunately, that led to abuse of the system. Over the years, that abuse has only gotten worse and fees can go as high as $2, $3 or even $6 per transaction.

Does my colleague think that a 50¢ limit on transaction fees is reasonable for consumers, yes or no? If an ATM transactions costs the banks 36¢, they would still make a small profit.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what I do not find reasonable is the NDP's claim that somehow profits are bad. Profits help Canadian consumers. They help to create jobs and create prosperity in our country. It is the labour unions that have invested in our public pension plans and that own stocks in the banking sector. They own stocks in Toronto-Dominion and the Royal Bank. The more profits that the banking sector makes, the better the labour unions and working Canadians do.

I suggest that my hon. friend go back to his labour union bosses and have a heart to heart discussion about banking fees, the banking sector, and the need for a strong economy, which Conservatives have created in Canada as a result of the economic actions plans of 2006 right through to 2013.

[Jonathan Tremblay, NDP, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is astonishing to see how our speaking time can be used here in the House. Our Conservative colleague spoke to the motion for 30 seconds and then spent another 15 seconds touting his performance in recent years.

We are proposing that the 2014 budget include measures to protect consumers by limiting ATM transaction fees. There is no pressure. We simply want to take the time to think about what we can ask of our banks to save money for consumers and bank clients. I do not see what would be so onerous about that. The committee can conduct the necessary studies to determine the ceiling required to ensure that these people are well served.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, these truly are crocodile tears that New Democrats are crying. Conservatives have brought in budget after budget of consumer-friendly, consumer-supportive regulations and laws, which have helped consumers through lower fees and lower taxes. The only thing that New Democrats stand for is a $21-billion carbon tax, plus tax upon tax.

They talk about profits being a bad word. On the other hand, they talk about how important it is for government to tax out of existence people's jobs, prosperity, opportunities, and hope. Conservatives and Canadians find that unacceptable.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to share my time with the member for LaSalle—Émard.

I listened to the member for York Centre. That takes some nerve. He gave the House a real million-dollar answer. The member just told us that businesses should make a profit and that the NDP is against that. A business is usually pretty darn happy if it makes a 10%, 15% or even 20% profit. We know what kind of profits stores and other companies make.

That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the fact that it costs banks 36¢, but they are charging $3 or $4 instead of 50¢. That is not a 10%, 20% or 50% profit. That is a 200% profit. That is a massive profit, and for whom? The banks. Who are the banks? Friends of the Conservatives. These are the same banks that made $22 billion in profits, and the government lowered their taxes.

In the Conservatives' budget that the NDP proudly refused to support, there was $40 billion in tax cuts over five years. The banks were getting tax cuts. They are being given tax cuts after they generated $22 billion in profit and were handing out bonuses. I want the member for York Centre to hear this. They handed out $11 billion in bonuses.

The Conservatives are not here to protect the consumer. Banks are not the ones voting for governments. It is the public, consumers, ordinary Canadians, the people who get up every morning and build our country all day long. They work hard. It is the men and women from all classes of society who are forced to give 200% to the banks and financial companies.

Some countries have said that this will no longer happen. For example, in the United Kingdom, 97% of withdrawals are free, as a result of public pressure. That public pressure did not come from the banks. Not from the Conservatives' buddies. It came from the public, the ordinary people who get up every morning, the men and women who work hard for their money.

Now, if someone shows up with cash, they are not even welcome anymore. You need a debit card. Everyone wants that card. The debits are done right away and the store has its money.

The member for York Centre said that the reason credit card interest rates are high is that people get themselves in too much debt. Boy, does he have faith in Canadian consumers. Basically, he said they are irresponsible. What he really said was that if interest rates were lower, Canadians would run up unbelievable amounts of debt, but it is actually the opposite. Before, people could go to the bank and get a loan at 6% or 7%. Nowadays, banks are refusing to loan people money and are sending out credit cards with 19% interest rates instead. If people miss a payment, the interest rate goes up to 23%. They are crucifying Canadians. That is what the Conservative government is doing.

The Conservatives say that they are all for protecting consumers. They claim that the NDP says employers and companies should not have the right to make money. That is not what we are saying. We are saying that people have the right to live. People have the right to earn money so they can buy things for their families. That is what we are saying. People have that right, and they have the right not to be ripped off at the ATM. That is what is happening.

What is the NDP's motion? It is not an extraordinary motion. It simply says:

That, in the opinion of the House, Canadian consumers face unfair Automated Teller Machine (ATM) fees as a result of an uncompetitive marketplace and that the House call on the government to take action in Budget 2014 to protect consumers by limiting ATM fees.

It clearly states “by limiting ATM fees”. Right now, it is a free-for-all.

As we say in English, it is a free for all. When we go to an ATM, it is not normal that we want $20 and pay $3 to get our own money. It is not normal that we want $50 and pay $3 to get our own money. It does not make sense. That is what is happening right now in Canada, where some other countries have abolished the fee or brought it right down to 97% that they just cannot charge anymore, or do not charge. That is what we are saying. We have to put a limit on that.

We have to put a limit on the credit card, as I said a few minutes ago. At one point in time, we used to walk into a bank and the manager would ask if we wanted some money. They do not ask if we want money anymore. They send us credit cards to our homes. It is so easy to get credit. They are saying the reason that the interest rate is high is to stop people from using their credit cards. That is not what is happening. They are putting people in debt, which is unbelievable. Instead of giving them a loan at 6% or 9%, they give them a credit card, which is easy to get. Instead of bothering to go to the bank to borrow money, it is easier to take a credit card with a limit of $20,000 or $30,000 and buy what we want. After that, we get charged an interest rate of 19%. If we miss a couple of payments, they bring the interest rate up to 24% or 28%.

It is unbelievable that the Conservative government that says it is here for the consumer does not do anything to save the consumer money or protect the consumer. The Conservatives do not do anything to protect the consumer, other than speaking words in the House, saying that companies have the right to make money and people have the right to make money. Yes, they do, but not on the backs of the citizens in the way they are doing it now, by gouging them when they go to the ATM. They do not have that right.

Many countries stand up for their consumers because they are the citizens of the country. They are the people, the men and women who get up in the morning and work hard for their money. They are working hard to earn money, and they have banks making billions of dollars of profit. We have the CEOs of the banks paying themselves millions of dollars of wages on top of it. A few years ago, the banks made $22 billion of profit and the CEOs paid themselves $11 billion of bonuses in this country. That is where the government should say that this is not right in our country; the banks do not have the right to do that. They are there to help consumers. They are there to help small and medium-sized businesses to build business instead of doing what they are doing right now.

That is why I believe the citizens will see that we have a good motion and that it should become the law of our country. They will see where the NDP is coming from with this, to protect the consumer. It is not like the Conservatives saying that they are protecting the consumer.

They are not protecting consumers, and this is becoming increasingly expensive.

Today we are asking this government to vote in favour of our motion, to support it and really support consumers and the citizens of this great country.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat a question that I have asked other colleagues of the member from the NDP. It is in regard to the universality of having that 50¢ cap. Does the member believe that a 50¢ cap should be applied to all ATMs, not just one-third of them, but all ATMs? What is the member's personal opinion on that issue?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, we have to evaluate. The motion is not a bill; it is a motion. We are asking people to sit down together and say what should be charged.

We are looking at a cap of 50¢. The fact is that there is no cap right now. It is a free-for-all. It is a free-for-all, and it is not right. It is not right that Canadian men and women have to pay that. Everybody uses ABM cards now. They do not use cash anymore. Everybody has a card and uses it, but then consumers are being abused in the same way they are abused when they use a credit card.

The cap is something we should discuss. It is totally not acceptable for Canadians to have to pay that. In some countries it is nothing at all. They do not even pay in some countries. Why should we do it here in this country?

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Acadie—Bathurst for giving a speech with all the passion and verve he is known for.

I would like to know how the measure proposed by the NDP can help his constituents. Many of us realize that people in various regions across Canada are finding life less and less affordable and increasingly difficult, depending on the demographics of each region of the country. I would like to know a little more about how this is playing out in the riding of Acadie—Bathurst.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question. I think the same is happening everywhere, in all ridings. These days, people use their debit cards on a daily basis. They do not think to themselves that today is payday so they will go and withdraw $300 from their account and put all that cash in their back pocket, wallet or purse and use it later. People use their debit cards every day. When you add up $3 here and $2 there, then another $2, $1.75 or $3, at the end of the month, people can spend $35 or $40 on ATM fees alone. Some people need that money. Some people need that money for their children who are in school or to meet basic needs.

The Conservatives say that financial institutions need to make money. I am sorry, but they are making money; they are making billions of dollars. The ones who are not making money are the Canadians who cannot even make ends meet. That is the situation where I come from, and I am sure it is the same across the country.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst, whom I greatly admire. I would like to point out that the profits on these transactions exceed 1,000%. The members opposite say that we are against profits, but that is ridiculous. We are not against profits for banking institutions that do their job, that lend money to a small business that needs it to create jobs, earn money and pay back that loan so the bank can in turn earn money. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about 1,000% profit on a simple transaction.

I would like to give my passionate colleague another opportunity to talk about how unconscionable this is.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, that is why there used to be banks on every street corner. Today, there are no banks in our regions. The banks are closing because it is easier to earn money fast with ATMs. There is no effort required. They know that people have no choice and they use that to their advantage. They have found a way to make money without doing anything. It is true. They make 1,000% profit. That is not right. What company makes 1,000% profit these days? There are many companies that would like to make 1,000% profit without doing anything. They do not even need employees. Everything is done by machine.

This does not create jobs. Again, machines are taking away jobs in our country. The banks are benefiting and putting machines everywhere. It is like casinos popping up everywhere. It is a carrot dangling in front of the rabbit that the rabbit is going to eat. That is what the banks are doing and the Conservative government is letting them. It is not good.