Debates of Feb. 4th, 2014

Foreign Affairs

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Minister of State (Foreign Affairs and Consular)]

Mr. Speaker, consular officials have been in contact and are providing consular assistance. The Canadian officials have raised this case with the Egyptian authorities. We are also in regular communication with specific family members, in accordance with his wishes.

Democratic Reform

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, while Quebec is taking action against fraudulent election financing and the use of false names by reducing the maximum amount of donations and increasing public financing, the Conservatives have proposed the exact opposite.

One would have thought that after Lino Zambito's admissions to the Charbonneau commission about his use of fake names to fund the Conservative Party, or after the string of donations from 12 executives of an engineering firm in the riding of Montmorency, the government would have at least had the decency to follow Quebec's lead.

Why would this government introduce a bill that defies common sense, if not to protect itself?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Minister of State (Democratic Reform)]

Mr. Speaker, the Fair Elections Act will allow donations of small amounts and will exclude those from the wealthiest.

We will also eliminate the practice of using unpaid loans to get around donation rules. I want to add that a small increase in the limits will enable small donors to contribute a bit more to democracy, all the while ensuring that checks and stricter legislation protect Canadians against the undue influence of money.

Selected Decisions of Speaker Peter Milliken

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the “Selected Decisions of Speaker Peter Milliken”.

This new reference work on parliamentary procedure is the eighth volume in a collection of Speakers' rulings and includes 228 rulings.

Mr. Milliken has the distinction of being the longest-servicing Speaker of the House of Commons, with a 10-year tenure, which began in the first session of the 37th Parliament and lasted until the end of the 40th Parliament.

Over the course of his mandate, Mr. Milliken acted as Speaker during both Conservative and Liberal governments, a testament to the respect he earned for his understanding of the procedures, traditions, and usages of the House of Commons.

On this special occasion, we are honoured today by the presence in the gallery of the Hon. Peter Milliken, distinguished former Speaker of the House.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

All members are invited to a reception that will be held in a few minutes in room 237-C to celebrate the release of this work.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion--Communications Security Establishment Canada

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Joe Comartin]

The hon. member for Prince Edward—Hastings has six minutes left in his speech.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was hoping you were going to say 26, but I will try to get it done within 6 minutes.

Before question period I talked about how SIRC addressed the relationship between CSIS and the Communications Security Establishment. Certainly, their mandates are different and the review of their activities is carried out by different review bodies. However, they are very much alike in one regard: they work in compliance with the law as they carry out their mandates. CSIS has collaborated and will continue to collaborate with its partners to help protect Canada's national interests, consistent with its authorities. There is no question that two such organizations simply must work together to carry out these activities. The National Defence Act and the CSIS Act provide the authority for this collaboration to occur.

In today's complex global threat environment, national security must be a team effort if it is to succeed. This means that CSIS will work, has worked, and must work with many domestic partners, including CSEC. Both organizations are dedicated to protecting Canada and Canadian interests, and therefore must in many ways support each another while always respecting their distinct and separate mandates. Indeed, any and all activities are lawfully granted by the Federal Court and are directed only against those individuals who pose a threat. This is clearly specified in the CSIS Act, and Canadians should, and do, expect nothing less.

It is also important that we consider the evolving threat environment. This is a threat environment that did not use to exist, but now includes the prospect of Canadian citizens leaving the country for the purpose of engaging in terrorist activities while still wanting all the protections of Canada and its laws. Of course, that threat environment includes espionage and our economic interests, cyber-security, et cetera. This is a threat environment that includes the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and is certainly an environment in which al-Qaeda continues to pose a very real threat to our safety and security, both at home and in many places around the globe.

Therefore, this is certainly a complex, multifaceted, and multidimensional environment. Through all of this, we rely on our intelligence community to help us prevent, to the extent possible, Canadians from travelling abroad to take part in terrorist activities. We also rely on them to provide us with information and advice that will help us protect our natural resources and our economy. There is no question that as they carry out their duties, there will be a continued and ongoing need for appropriate review.

While we certainly can continue to rely on the work of the various review bodies, our government will continue to explore options that would deliver continued, effective, and robust review and accountability of our national security activities. In other words, we should always be vigilant for improvement. However, what we will not entertain is a process that duplicates the great work already being done by officials in SIRC. Why would we simply add another bureaucratic level and added cost to give us the same results when we already have a competency in place? Therefore, rather than creating additional reams of red tape for those who work on the front lines keeping us safe, our government will continue to introduce new tools.

Our Conservative government passed the Combatting Terrorism Act, which created a new criminal offence for those who travel overseas to engage in terrorist activities. Shockingly, members of the House and the opposition voted against this very simple, common sense measure. Canadians know that our Conservative government can absolutely be trusted on matters of national security.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised at the remarks by the member, who is the chair of the public safety committee.

The question is not about security. The question is about whether the government and the intelligence agencies can be trusted with respect to protecting privacy. That is the issue.

All our partners have a parliamentary oversight committee. It is not, as the member suggests, a duplication of what officials do; it is Parliament accepting its responsibility to do a review on behalf of Canadians in a proactive way, so as to ensure that the intelligence-gathering agencies are doing what they are mandated to do and do not go beyond those measures.

The member should know that in terms of the all-parliamentary committee, the current Minister of National Defence was on that committee, as was the current Minister of State for Finance. They wanted it then; why do they not want it now?

Why would the chair of the public safety committee not look at this with some independent thought instead of taking the messages that all the others over there in that party have been portraying all day long? Will he not think about it independently and give Canadians the robust viewpoint that should be seen?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we do work together in partnership on the public safety and national security committee.

My response will be very simple. I do understand the reality that there are ongoing arguments and discussions to try to bring into place the effective balance between security and privacy. It is an ongoing discussion.

The member is suggesting that we need another agency or department on top of that and that Parliament should take on more responsibilities, thereby adding another body. Well, it was Parliament that established the original bodies and all of the oversight committees. It is Parliament that establishes the relationship to put a judicial authority into the content. It is Parliament that establishes the laws that all of these people are adhering to, and the independent bodies have attested to that.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the remarks made by the chair of the public safety committee, but I think he missed the point, because clearly some of the agencies he talked about do not have adequate oversight.

Last November, a judge in the Federal Court said that CSIS clearly had withheld information when applying for warrants and was conducting surveillance operations that were outside the law. What are the consequences for that? What happens when that takes place? We clearly do not have effective oversight if this is happening and there are no consequences. I would like to know what the hon. member has to say about that incident.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the government takes all transgressions and inadequacies into consideration. We had a situation that was deemed not to be proper, and action was taken to correct it. Do we need another body on top of that when we already have review agencies and an independent audit that has identified the problem clearly?

Yes, it was not perfect. Was there an error or omission? Yes. Has it been obviously identified and corrected? Yes. Is that reason to spend countless dollars on another bureaucracy that would simply duplicate what we already have in place?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, it is my pleasure to join the debate today.

As a Canadian Conservative, I view with alarm any development or operation of government that extends its reach into the daily lives of Canadians. Big government and faceless bureaucracies are the purview of the socialist, left-wing, left-of-centre governments and their supporters. It was Big Brother who implemented the hated long gun registry. Big Brother is responsible for forcing rural Canada, without consultation and at great cost to taxpayers, to accept industrial wind turbines in their rural communities. It is Big Brother who would be listening to private conversations.

I am pleased to assure my constituents in Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke that when it comes to the creep of Big Brother and big government, I will oppose anything that reduces their privacy and the privacy of all Canadians. Within limits, I will not, at the same time, compromise the safety and security of Canadians.

As the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, which includes Canadian Forces Base Petawawa, I understand the importance of reliable intelligence in a dangerous world. This is particularly important when Canadian Forces personnel are sent overseas and put in harm's way. Our military require the proper intelligence to assess security threats. The women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces have a dangerous job. Let us make sure we do nothing to make it any more dangerous.

I thank the mover of today's motion for the opportunity to discuss the importance of the work done by the Communications Security Establishment Canada, CSEC, on behalf of the Minister of National Defence and all Canadians. In a perfect world, we would not need CSEC. However, it is a dangerous world, and in order to keep Canada safe, we have to keep one step ahead of those who would do us harm.

Canadians understand that CSEC was legislated by the mover of today's motion while his party was in power. Flawed legislation, Big Brother government, and not listening to the concerns of Canadians led to his party being reduced to third party status in the House of Commons.

If there were gaps or shortcomings in the way CSEC operated, as a right-of-centre Conservative, I would be one of the first to be critical. Under our Conservative government, CSEC respects and is bound by Canadian law, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Privacy Act, and the Criminal Code of Canada.

By law, CSEC can only undertake activities that fall within its mandate. CSEC fully respects these legal parameters and authorities under which it operates under the National Defence Act. CSEC cannot direct its foreign intelligence or cybersecurity activities at Canadians anywhere in the world or at any individual Canadian. CSEC is specifically required to apply measures to protect the privacy of Canadians in the execution of its foreign intelligence and information technology security activities.

CSEC may assist federal law enforcement and security agencies under their legal authorities, such as any applicable court warrant.

The independent CSEC commissioner, an esteemed retired or supernumerary judge, reviews all CSEC activities and has never found CSEC to have acted unlawfully. Among the former commissioners are Supreme Court justices and one chief justice of Canada's highest court. The current commissioner is the Hon. Jean-Pierre Plouffe, appointed on October 18, 2013. While he reports to the Minister of National Defence regarding CSEC's activities, he does not take direction from the minister, the government, or CSEC.

The office of the commissioner is independently funded by its own budgetary appropriation from Parliament. It is the CSEC commissioner who decides independently what activities will be reviewed. The resources of the office of the commissioner are comparable to other similar review bodies.

In order to review the agency's activities, the commissioner is supported by an expert staff. The office has 11 full-time employees and contracts additional subject matter experts as appropriate and when required.

The commissioner and his staff have full access to CSEC employees, records, systems, and data and have the power to subpoena if necessary. The resources of the commissioner are also solely focused on one organization.

Since 1996, the commissioner has regularly reviewed CSEC activities for compliance with the law and protection of privacy and has made helpful recommendations to improve CSEC's programs. In other words, the commissioner has a sharp focus on compliance with the law and the protection of Canadians' privacy.

The commissioner's findings and recommendations for each of the reviews he undertakes during the year are sent to the Minister of National Defence. The classified report is necessary to provide a full account to the minister while at the same time protecting sensitive operational information under the Security of Information Act. The commissioner also submits an annual unclassified report on his activities to Parliament.

In addition, the commissioner is also available to appear before Parliament at any time. He most recently appeared before the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence in December to talk about his role. The commissioner spoke positively about his ability to fully review CSEC activities, his access to systems and staff, and the resources that are allocated to his office to undertake his important duties.

To date, CSEC has implemented all of the commissioner's recommendations related to privacy and is in the process of implementing recommendations from the most recent reviews.

If the commissioner encounters any activity that he believes may not be compliant with the law, he is obliged under our legislation to inform both the Minister of National Defence and the Attorney General, who will perform their own assessments of whether CSEC has broken the law. The commissioner also has a mandate to receive information from CSEC employees if they believe it is in the public interest to release special operational information about CSEC. This provides an avenue for employees to come forward with any concerns they may have without breaching the Security of Information Act. To date, no such complaints have been received.

To reiterate, the commissioner has never found CSEC to have acted unlawfully. In fact, he has specifically noted CSEC's culture of lawful compliance and genuine concern for protecting the privacy of Canadians. Like other departments, CSEC is subject to review by the Auditor General, the Privacy Commissioner, the Information Commissioner, the Commissioner of Official Languages, and the Canadian human rights commissioner. In addition to external review, CSEC's internal audit, evaluation, and ethics directorate also conducts regular reviews, and these reports are reviewed by an external departmental audit committee.

All of these forms of review help to reassure Canadians that CSEC and its staff respect and follow the law and protect the privacy of Canadians in performing the important roles in collecting foreign signals intelligence in addition to protecting the Government of Canada's important computer systems and networks.

CSEC's activities are also guided by legislation that was implemented through amendments to the National Defence Act in 2001. This legislation established CSEC's mandate in statute and included special measures to recognize the unique operating environment of CSEC.

Given the complex and global nature of cyberspace and telecommunications, CSEC's foreign intelligence and cyberprotection activities sometimes risk the incidental interception of the private communications of Canadians. This happens because there is no way to know in advance with whom foreign targets will communicate, including people in Canada.

The National Defence Act recognizes this. Under the law, and solely for the purpose of fulfilling CSEC's mandate to obtain foreign intelligence or protect Canadian networks, CSEC must obtain an authorization from the minister for any activity that may risk the incidental interception of private communications. These authorizations are valid for up to one year and are subject to strict conditions, which include measures to protect the privacy of Canadians.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, it was great to hear all the reassuring words from the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke and all the assurances given by the commissioner. However, they have not all been assurances. In the report for 2012-13, this is what the commissioner said:

However, a small number of records suggested the possibility that some activities may have been directed at Canadians, contrary to law. A number of CSEC records relating to these activities were unclear or incomplete. After in-depth and lengthy review, I was unable to reach a definitive conclusion about compliance or non-compliance with the law.

The assurances are not quite as assured as the member tries to portray.

Second, yesterday the Prime Minister's national security adviser, who was before the Senate committee, when asked these questions on the metadata, basically said, “I'm not...persuaded” that there was an infringement of Canadians' rights, basically, for lack of a better term.

“Not persuaded” is not very definitive. We had all-party support here at one time. Yes, the minister during question period talked about the metadata that happened in 2005, when the Liberals were in power. I did not know that until just lately. Therein lies the problem. It does not matter the political party that is in government. What matters is what the security agencies are doing.

What is wrong with Canada coming up to the standards that all the other countries involved in the Five Eyes have in terms of oversight for our intelligence security agencies in this country?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the government recognizes the importance of independent review in maintaining Canadians' trust in our national security activities. National security organizations, specifically CSIS and CSEC, are subject to independent review by the Security Intelligence Review Committee and the Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner respectively. The review bodies have always found these agencies to work within the confines of Canadian law.

I certainly understand that the recent controversy in the United States has caused concern here in Canada, but I can assure the member that CSIS warrants do not authorize mass surveillance of Canadians, and our agencies do not engage in such activities. Any investigative techniques employed are lawfully authorized by the Federal Court and are directed against specific individuals who pose a threat to the security of Canada, a threshold that is clearly articulated in the CSIS Act.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the member went on at some length about the perils of big government, yet we have seen the government acting, frankly, like a big thug on the rights of veterans.

The security agencies are now not only in our pockets but are in our iPhones, our BlackBerrys, and our computers. They are tracking us everywhere we go, and the member stands and says that it is okay.

Why does she think Canadians should simply accept the government's assurances that things are okay, when we know, for example, that the claims it makes about veterans getting more services are absolutely false?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is precisely the socialist parties that want to expand government and bureaucracy. That being said, CSEC is prohibited from targeting the communications of persons in Canada or of Canadians anywhere under its foreign intelligence and cyberprotection mandates. CSEC is required to operate within all Canadian laws, including the Privacy Act, which has legislative measures in place to protect the privacy of Canadians.

Protecting the privacy of Canadians is the law, and CSEC follows the letter and the spirit of that law. As well, CSEC's activities are reviewed by the independent CSE Commissioner, who has specifically noted CSEC's continued adherence to lawful compliance and its genuine concern for protecting the privacy of Canadians.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, this is an important issue. Many Canadians are offended by the approach the government has taken in terms of protecting privacy.

Members will recall last year when a bill was introduced by the government. The government arguably wanted to snoop a little too much into the personal lives of Canadians all across our land. The resistance to that Conservative piece of legislation back in June was so significant that the government made the decision to let the bill die on the order paper, because it had offended so many Canadians with respect to the issue of privacy.

One would think that the Conservatives would be a little more sensitive to some of the reports related to privacy. Imagine being in the airport using Wi-Fi and finding out that it is being tapped into or monitored. I would argue that Canadians would be quite upset.

One must ask oneself what is actually being proposed. It is a very simple and straightforward motion that has been put on the agenda today by the Liberal Party:

That the House express its deep concern over reports that Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) has been actively and illegally monitoring Canadians and call on the government to immediately order CSEC to cease all such activities and increase proper oversight of CSEC, through the establishment of a National Security Committee of Parliamentarians as laid out in Bill C-551, An Act to establish the National Security Committee of Parliamentarians.

What has the Liberal Party actually done here today? One, we have recognized an issue that we believe Canadians are concerned about. We are asking all members of the House to provide input and share their thoughts on what we believe is a critically important issue, which is ensuring the privacy of Canadians.

Not only are we raising the issue, we are also coming up with a practical solution for the government if, in fact, it wanted to demonstrate that, like us, it is concerned about the privacy of Canadians. It is a constructive motion before the House today.

It is not as if the Conservatives would have to come up with their own piece of legislation. We have made reference to Bill C-551, which already exists. In essence, that bill would make the law of Canada similar to what many other jurisdictions in the world are doing. I would suggest that it is something the government should be acting on.

I do not know why the Conservatives would oppose it. The member who spoke before me comes across as if she is against big government and does not believe that the government should be getting involved in these privacy issues. I do not understand why she would oppose the motion. The motion is trying to protect the privacy Canadians have and demand.

We talk about Bill C-551, which the Liberal Party has had on the order paper for many months. What would it actually do? The bill would establish a parliamentary committee that would provide oversight of CSEC. That is the core of the legislation we are promoting.

What does that mean? At the end of the day, there would be elected officials from this House who would be responsible for ensuring that CSEC, among other things, actually follows the law to ensure that the privacy rights of Canadians are protected. What is wrong with that? The government cannot even argue from a cost perspective.

Mr. Speaker, I was so anxious to speak to the motion, I forgot to mention that I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Ottawa South.

We have 308 members. Actually, we will be increasing membership under the government. We will be spending $30 million-plus in tax dollars to increase the size of the House of Commons, so there will be more members of Parliament in the House. That is another debate for another day.

We have 308 members of Parliament today. We could designate a number of those MPs. I believe that the standard is ten. The cost would be marginal. The space for the meetings is already available at the House. Members of Parliament already have staff. There are apolitical analysts who are accessible. We could even look to the Library of Parliament. Cost is not an issue.

I would argue that it would be more cost-efficient than what we currently have in place in terms of overview. We have an office established and a judge, who I believe is actually part-time, to deal with this particular issue.

A House of Commons committee would meet on an ongoing basis. It is not as if it would be meeting twice a week during a session, even though, potentially, it could do that. It could be easily implemented.

I do not understand why the government is opposing what the Liberal Party is trying to encourage the government to adopt. The real benefit would be to Canadians.

Given the phenomenal amount of change occurring within technology today, whether Wi-Fi, GPS, or Internet, the technology that our security agencies have to snoop and spy, more than ever there is a need for parliamentary oversight. That means that elected officials in Canada would be able to guarantee that laws are not being broken and that the privacy of Canadians is being respected on this very important issue.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I want to make an observation. The member asks why the government would not do this. The Liberal party was in government when it authorized the collection and analysis of metadata through a ministerial directive. It was the Liberals who did that. The member for Malpeque, who moved this motion, is a former solicitor general. The member for Mount Royal is a former minister of justice.

The Liberals were in power for 13 years. If they thought this was such a great idea, why did they not do it then?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, we needed more time. We did a lot of wonderful things. I could talk about the health care accord that was signed off and is expiring this year. We are still waiting for it. I could talk about the Kelowna accord, which was a huge Paul Martin initiative. The Clarity Act was another. There is so much that the Liberal government did back then.

Technology has changed tremendously over the last six to eight years. How wonderful it would have been to have done this, not in 2014, but in 2010, 2009, or 2008. If there were a proactive Conservative caucus back then, with a proactive New Democratic caucus, maybe that idea would have surfaced at the time. Obviously, it did not.

I can assure members that if the Conservatives fail to do it here, it is only a question of time before it does get done, and it might take a Liberal administration in order to make it happen.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have an opportunity to finally get the floor on this debate today. I am very supportive of this motion, and concerned about the excesses that are apparent in CSEC, the Communications Establishment Security Canada.

I want to ask my colleague from Winnipeg North a question that I do not believe has come up today. It is an example that blows a hole through the argument the Conservatives are making that nothing needs to be done about CSEC, that it is using legitimate means to intercept communications that come from foreigners for appropriate security reasons.

How do they explain that Canada was caught spying on the Government of Brazil through CSEC? It intercepted communications to Brazil's department of mines, in an apparent effort of industrial espionage, to assist Canadian mining companies dealing with Brazilian mining companies. There was no legitimate security interest in doing this. I would ask my hon. colleague whether that incident does not bolster the need for parliamentary oversight.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the leader of the Green Party for supporting the motion. It is somewhat sad that the only time that this becomes a topical issue is when we hear of something that has inappropriately taken place, such as the report with respect to Wi-Fi, where it appeared that Canadians were being monitored in some fashion or another.

The point is that we do not know for sure either way. That is why it is critically important that we do have a parliamentary group that deals with the issue in terms of oversight. Only through that can we provide unequivocal assurance to Canadians that their privacy-related issues with respect to CSEC are being protected.

That is why I would encourage the government not to just wait for news reports; we can be proactive in dealing with this issue. It would not be costly. Canadians would value a government that would protect their privacy. At the end of the day, there is nothing to be lost by accepting this motion and passing the private member's bill that we have suggested.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this very important debate. Let me say from the outset that I completely understand the need for Canada to have the appropriate balance in monitoring communications and collecting information that is important when it comes to our collective security.

I say that because several years ago, I was commencing a three-week international visitor program in the United States. My first day of those three weeks was in Washington, which happened to be the morning of 9/11, and thus began my three weeks throughout America. I learned a lot about security and the evolution of security thinking, and apparatus, on a continental and global basis.

However, listening to the government views on this, and I have listened intently now for most of the day, I would like to remind the House that a lot of Canadians are deeply concerned and troubled by this. I have an international airport, the Ottawa Airport, in my district. I have received many comments and questions about what is going on in that airport as people fly in and out of our national capital, including, by the way, 65,000 foreign officials each and every year.

This motion today is a simple one. For Canadians who are watching, listening, or reading, it means simply that we would create an all-party committee to oversee the activities of the Communications Security Establishment Canada. This would, of course, be in keeping with what is already happening in other jurisdictions. A similar committee exists in the United States. There is one in the United Kingdom. One is in place in New Zealand, and yet another is operating in Australia. We are talking about having a fixed number of MPs, sworn to absolute secrecy, who would play an important role in monitoring the activities of this particular organization's agency, to make sure that Canadians' collective paramount right to privacy is maintained and upheld.

As I listened to the government members respond to this, I was perplexed. Only several years ago, all parties in the House came together, in a report of 2004, and agreed to create an all-party committee. In fact, the government brought in legislation saying it would do precisely that. The Minister of National Defence today was a member of that committee, who spoke perhaps most strongly in favour of doing this. Therefore, why has the government flipped its views in this regard? We have seen, as I just explained, other jurisdictions that are doing this. They are our partners, working with Canada on a daily basis with respect to security matters. Why would the government resist this?

If I could sum up the government's position, it would go something like, “We actually want more secrecy, but we cannot say why because that is a secret”. That is what we heard the Prime Minister say today during question period when he was asked precisely about this question. His answer was that he could not say anything about this because it was secret. That is not reassuring for Canadians.

I have to ask, where are all the Conservative libertarians? Where are all the former police officers, the remaining lawyers, or the military officers in the caucus, who all swore an oath to uphold the rule of law? Can they categorically look at each one of their constituents and say there is absolutely nothing wrong going on here, when we know there are committee reports that say “Houston, we may have a problem”? They cannot say that. Where are those voices? What has happened to those people? What has happened to the caucus? It is deeply troubling to hear what the government is saying.

One would think that the Conservatives, and the Prime Minister in particular, would be in favour of improving oversight. Here is one reason as to why, one incident to justify why they might be in favour of that. Let us all harken back to the Iraq war. Let us harken back to the the former leader of the opposition, now Prime Minister, writing an open letter to major American dailies in New York City and Washington, attacking the Canadian government for not participating in the Iraq war when the the former prime minister Jean Chrétien made the fact-based decision not to participate in the Bush war.

In contrast, one would think, knowing what we know now about the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction, despite the assertions by the entire security apparatus of the United States, and that it was a construct and a fiction foisted on the world, which decimated America's security reputation for the decade that followed—

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

What the hell has this got to do with the subject?