Debates of Feb. 4th, 2014

Opposition Motion—Communications Security Establishment Canada

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member reinforcing concerns about trust and the ability of Canadians to trust the government's agencies.

My contention would be that this is part of an overall approach of the current government. From the muzzling of scientists who produce research incompatible with the government's ideological goals, to spying on environmental groups that may disagree with the government's pet projects, to potentially removing some of Election Canada's oversight powers because the Chief Electoral Officer found the Conservatives guilty of election offences, the government has responded very consistently with a clear disregard for transparency, accountability, or respect for the rights of our citizens and the well-being of Canada's democracy.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Northumberland—Quinte West.

I am pleased to speak against the Liberal motion today.

I would like to take a few moments to describe the many ways in which our Conservative government is working to protect Canada and Canadians against the very real threat of terrorism.

In 2012, our government released Canada's first counterterrorism strategy called “Building Resilience Against Terrorism”. This single comprehensive strategy guides the actions of more than 20 federal departments and agencies to better align them to prevent, detect, deny, and respond to terrorist threats. It speaks frankly about the terrorist threats that we face at home and abroad.

In a resilient society, everyone, including governments, first responders, critical infrastructure operators, communities, and individuals, know what they need to do when faced with a terrorist attack, mitigating the impact and helping to facilitate a rapid return to ordinary life.

First and foremost to the strategy's success is the element of prevention. Preventing terrorist ideologies from taking hold of vulnerable individuals is the best scenario.

The strategy also lays out how government organizations, including CSIS and CSEC, work every day to detect individuals and organizations who may pose a terrorist threat to deny terrorists the means and opportunities to carry out their attacks, and to respond to acts of terrorism in a manner that mitigates their efforts. I am convinced that our strategy, successfully implemented by the exceptional men and women working in our national security departments and agencies, effectively addresses the threat of terrorism to Canada, its citizens, and its interests around the world.

Without a doubt, Canada's success in remaining resilient in the face of terrorist threats depends on having an approach that is flexible, forward-looking, and adaptable to an evolving threat environment.

However, one thing is clear: Canada is not immune to the threat of terrorism. That is why our government fulfilled its commitment to report annually on the evolving terrorist threat to Canadians and Canadian interests. The “2013 Public Report on the Terrorist Threat to Canada” examined the most critical developments in terrorism since the release of the counterterrorism strategy. It also identified some of the measures our government has taken to address these threats.

The terrorist threats that Canadians face at home are most often connected with and inspired by developments that happen abroad. As most Canadians already know, global violent extremist groups, such as al Qaeda, have been leading the terrorist threat to Canada for many years. This has not changed. Al Qaeda is weaker today than it once was, but it still poses a threat. It provides guidance to other terrorist groups, particularly its regional affiliates. These affiliates, including al Qaeda in Iraq, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, and Al Shabaab, all pose a threat to Canada. Al Qaeda and its affiliates remain interested in conducting international terrorist attacks.

Evolving conflicts abroad also continue to shape the nature of the terrorist threat to Canada. We continue to watch for developments abroad that may drive international and domestic terrorism. In Africa, for example, we have seen ongoing terrorist activities. Terrorists have attacked the Westgate Mall, in Nairobi.

Growing terrorist violence threatens to spill across borders and undermine regional stability, prompting international efforts to counter local terrorist activities. We have seen recent terrorist bombings in Volgograd, Russia. Syria has become both a major centre for terrorist activity and an emerging cause for global terrorist activity. Terrorist violence in Syria could spill across borders and lead to further regional instability. It is clear that Syria, as well as Iran, continue to provide state support for terrorist groups, such as Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Hamas.

While these developments take place far from Canadian shores, international events are often connected with terrorist threats here at home. The successful Canadian arrest of individuals accused of terrorism offences demonstrates the effectiveness of the integrated national security enforcement teams, known as INSETs, working in major cities across the country. INSETs, led by the RCMP, are staffed by employees from CSIS, CBSA, and local law enforcement. Its ability to respond appropriately to threats to the security of Canada is informed, in part, by the work of CSIS and other members of the intelligence community.

This approach has greatly improved the ability of agencies to work together and has led to many successes. This includes the disruption of the plot to attack a VIA Rail passenger train in April, and the plot to attack the Victoria legislature on Canada Day.

We must also deal with the reality that Canadians have travelled or attempted to travel abroad to become involved in conflicts in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and elsewhere. In fact, the CSIS director spoke in the other place, just last evening, to discuss this issue. He pointed out that the number of Canadians fighting overseas is not insignificant. This poses a risk to us at home because these radicalized individuals will eventually come back. This is why it is key to develop entry/exit information-sharing with allies, and why it was key to pass the Combating Terrorism Act. Both of these common-sense measures are, shockingly, opposed by the NDP.

Let me be clear. The problems with citizens travelling overseas to fight is not unique to Canada. Other international allies each face similar challenges. It is clear that the global terrorist threat continues to shift and evolve and that international events can have a direct impact here at home.

While no government can prevent all terrorist activity from happening, we can take measures to counter the terrorist threat, whether it is a threat within Canada, support for violence abroad, or activities that undermine Canada's efforts to secure international peace and security. Canada is actively working to identify threats as early as possible, ensuring that robust and effective alerting systems are in place and sharing information appropriately and proactively within Canada with key allies and non-traditional partners. While terrorist threats remain, we continue to see positive developments in our efforts to strengthen and build resilience to terrorist threats.

Through successful domestic and international partnerships, strong legislative action, and with important work being conducted by the men and women in our national security departments and agencies, our government is taking the appropriate actions to protect Canadians and Canadian interests at home and abroad. Our counterterrorism strategy is working. We will continue to take action to keep the safety of Canadians as our top priority.

We will not undertake efforts to create duplicative processes to tie up front-line operators in red tape when they could be taking action to keep Canadians safe.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his speech, although we must admit, that approach contains some rather exaggerated elements.

I would like to hear my colleague's response to the comments made by the former commissioner of Communications Security Establishment Canada, Justice Robert Décary. Following a review presented in his 2012-13 annual report, he reached the following conclusion—which was very troubling considering his position: “After in-depth and lengthy review, I was unable to reach a definitive conclusion about compliance or non-compliance with the law.”

Even the commissioner seems to have a very limited ability to determine what is happening, which is completely unacceptable. Would my colleague not agree that Communications Security Establishment Canada should at least be the subject of an independent review?

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that being said, CSEC is prohibited from targeting the communications of persons in Canada, or Canadians anywhere, under this foreign intelligence and cyber protection act.

The Privacy Act ensures that we do not get into individuals' information. That requires a court order. I believe the commissioner has already outlined that we are following the law, and that is important.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member talked about not wanting to tie up the agencies in red tape. I would suggest that the member and his government take note of a lawsuit that was filed in October, in the B.C. Supreme Court. It is the first one to challenge the legality of CSEC's spying activities against Canadians. It was filed by the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, and supported by OpenMedia.ca. This means that because there is such a vacuum of leadership by the Conservative government, the courts are going to be filling the gap, at public expense and with the red tape of fighting this out in court.

The lawyers on behalf of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association claim that unaccountable and unchecked government surveillance presents a grave threat to democratic freedoms. I think Canadians would agree that Canada is not a nation of secret laws. It is fundamental to the proper operation of our democracy that Canadians be able to access and understand the laws that impact their freedoms and their rights, and it is simply not enough for the government to ask Canadians to trust its spy agencies. We are not a society of blind faith. We are a society of accountability, transparency, and free and open debate.

My question is, why not engage in that debate to move forward in this complex terrain—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order. The hon. member for Medicine Hat.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member ought to know that we would not talk about cases that are before the courts.

However, I can say that the commissioner has outlined specifically that no laws have been broken. We are following all the Canadian laws, particularly on privacy. We understand that Canadians want to make sure their private matters are not interfered with by the government.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak on this Liberal motion regarding the review of the Canadian national security and intelligence community.

Keeping Canadian life and property safe from those who wish to harm us because of their hatred for our way of life is a key responsibility for any government. In this respect, our security and intelligence agencies perform a vital function. That is why agencies like CSIS were created. However, we must have respect for core Canadian values such as privacy. That is why Parliament created the Security Intelligence Review Committee simultaneous to the creation of CSIS.

The robust oversight mechanisms in place are an important part of safeguarding our freedoms. Let us look at the history of how this came about.

Almost 30 years ago, Parliament passed the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act on the basis of recommendations by the McDonald Commission. As an important part of this act, Parliament subjected CSIS to one of the most robust and comprehensive review regimes in the western world. This was done because, even 30 years ago, the importance of independent review and maintaining Canadians' trust in our national security activities was well understood.

There are many important checks and balances built into the system, including judicial authorization by a federal court, as well as by the Privacy Commissioner, Auditor General, and parliamentary committees. In fact, the director of CSIS appeared at the committee in the other place just last evening to discuss important issues.

The CSIS act clearly outlines the requirement for judicial control of specific activities. Even a cursory look at the relevant provisions reveals the level of rigour required for CSIS to seek or renew a warrant before the Federal Court. It should also be noted that CSIS activities can be, and frequently are, reviewed by the Privacy Commissioner, who can issue public recommendations.

In addition to these measures, SIRC plays a critical role in the overall system of accountability. Specifically, SIRC independently reviews CSIS activities to ensure they are conducted legally, effectively, and appropriately. SIRC is also charged with examining complaints from the general public. SIRC has access to everything it needs to thoroughly carry out its functions.

As members will know, SIRC produces an annual report, which is tabled in Parliament. This report describes world trends and summarizes reviews by SIRC of specific CSIS activities. The fact that review topics are varied is a testament to SIRC's independent reviews that are launched at its discretion and have delved into issues related to CSIS' operational policies as well as its compliance with ministerial direction and Canadian law. SIRC's annual report also presents any findings or recommendations. All combined, SIRC's report gives Parliament and the public valuable insight into the activities of CSIS and the environment in which it operates.

Each year, the director of CSIS must submit a classified report on its operational activities to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. This is not only an exercise in ministerial accountability, but also one of independent review, as a copy of CSIS' classified report is reviewed by SIRC, line by line. In fact, SIRC must submit a certificate to the minister to attest to the extent to which it is satisfied with a classified report. This exercise has been a requirement of CSIS since its inception.

Most recently, SIRC found that CSIS' classified report to the minister was a “useful and comprehensive review of the whole of CSIS operation”. Importantly, SIRC also found that the operational activities of CSIS, as they are described in the director's report, did not contravene the CSIS act or ministerial directives, nor did they involve the unreasonable or unnecessary use of the service's powers.

Quite simply, SIRC, an independent committee with full access to relevant information, found that CSIS is operating within the rule of law. All of these activities undertaken by CSIS in the pursuit of its mandate are consistent with Canadian laws and values.

In light of the recent controversy, it is also important to distinguish between the mandates and the laws governing intelligence activities in Canada and the United States. Many have been too quick to assume that the U.S. intelligence agencies' activities described in media reports are akin to those conducted by CSIS in Canada. This is simply not the case. CSIS warrants authorized by the Federal Court do not allow mass surveillance of Canadians, and CSIS does not engage in such activities. Importantly, SIRC did not suggest anything to the contrary in its recent annual report. CSIS warrants are directed against specific individuals who pose a threat to the security of Canada, a threshold that is clearly articulated in the CSIS Act.

Discussions surrounding review and process are important, but we need to keep these issues in context. CSIS exists to help protect Canada's national security and to advance our interests in a world where threats from abroad and at home are intertwined in very complex ways.

I remind members that just this year, the RCMP, aided by CSIS intelligence, made arrests in two high-profile bomb plots. One was to destroy rail lines in Niagara Falls, and the other was to cause mayhem and death at a Canada Day celebration in Victoria, British Columbia. These threats are real, and the men and women of CSIS work every day to ensure that they do not materialize.

In any debate on review, I hope we would always keep in mind Canada's national security, as it remains the pre-eminent role of any country to keep its citizens safe and secure from threats and physical harm. However, that does not seem to be the case here today.

Let us look at the facts. The member for Malpeque, who brought forward today's motion, was the minister responsible for national security, and neither he nor his Liberal government brought this proposal for increased parliamentary oversight into force. That may be because it was, in fact, the first government to authorize the use of metadata, which it now conveniently opposes. In fact, his Liberal government introduced a similar proposal but never brought it forward for debate.

The NDP is so wrong on national security issues that it voted against the Combating Terrorism Act, which makes it an offence to go overseas to receive terrorist training.

Our Conservative government will not support this motion, as it seeks to create needless duplication of efforts.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I have to laugh, because there seems to be, by some members on the government side, a bit of an attack on the member for Malpeque. That is fine. It does not bother me much. However, let us clear up the facts for the member for Northumberland—Quinte West. The government that asked for an all-party committee, which was made up of all parties, and I have its report here, “Report of the Interim Committee of Parliamentarians on National Security”, and the minister of public security at the time did, in fact, introduce government legislation to have a proper oversight committee.

I listened to the parliamentary secretary earlier, and I wondered whether the theme would continue. The Conservatives try to make this look like a partisan issue. There was a time, and this was when this committee came into being, that parliamentarians worked in a non-partisan sense for the good of all Canadians. I would say to the member for Northumberland—Quinte West that this is not a partisan issue. This is not an issue to undermine our security agencies, which are doing a good job. The idea behind this motion is to have the government and Parliament act responsibly to ensure that Canadians' privacy is protected. What does the member see wrong with that?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will tell you some of the things I find wrong with a lot of the statements that come from across the way.

Before this government came to power in 2006, the previous government said that it would do a lot of things. There was a plethora of things they would have or could have done and now, perhaps, should have done.

The actual fact is that for the last 30-plus years, we have had in this country one of the most robust oversight systems in the western world. To my knowledge, there has been no proven time when the oversight committees have found that CSIS, in any serious, significant way, has compromised Canadian citizens. It has followed the act. We have seen it time and time again.

Last night, in the other place, as I just mentioned in my speech, the three people responsible for those entities appeared before a Senate committee. They answered every question honestly and with the greatest amount of detail possible, because we are dealing with matters of national security.

Liberals said that they were going to do it or they should have done it. Canadians know how long they were in office. They did not do it, and now they are trying to do it through the back door. There is no reason for that.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Speaker, throughout this whole debate, we have been hearing, basically, that it ain't broken, so what do we need to fix? We seem to be missing the overall question.

The event that spurred this motion and debate happened just this January. We are hearing constant references to the commissioner and what the commissioner ruled last year, in 2012, and 16 years ago, and so forth. What I would like to know is this. Based on the information that came out about activities this past January, what is the commissioner doing and what is the government doing in terms of verifying and regulating this situation with regard to spying on Canadians?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question, but I think he should have availed himself of the testimony made before the Senate committee last night. Those questions were addressed.

Most people do not understand what metadata is all about. There was no specific Canadian targeted. There was no significant group targeted. CSEC wanted a generalized outlook on how many outgoing calls there were. Nobody was identified. I ask the member, before rushing to judgment, to read the testimony that occurred at the Senate committee. I think most of his questions would be answered.

As I previously stated to the member for Malpeque, we have been well served. One of the reasons previous Liberal governments did not do anything about creating some new entity was that they saw that this country was well served by the oversight committee that was created at the same time CSIS was created.

There is also a reason CSEC and CSIS report to different ministers. While they share some information, they are also kept as separate entities on purpose.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I wish to advise that I will be sharing my time with the member for Kingston and the Islands.

Media reports suggest that Canada's intelligence and spy agency, the Communications Security Establishment Canada, or CSEC, is collecting personal data on Canadians using Wi-Fi networks at Canadian airports. I am troubled by these serious allegations. If the allegations are true, and the information contained in top secret documents revealed by Edward Snowden seems to suggest their veracity, this is a serious violation of Canadian law.

It is important that Parliament and the government respond to these concerns and act legislatively, if necessary. The privacy of Canadians should not be an issue that divides the House of Commons along partisan lines, but I fear that the temptation to do that will prevail.

Canadians have a right to be assured that no agency of government has access to their personal information without legal authority.

Here is what we know thus far. According to recent reports from the CBC, the Communications Security Establishment Canada stands accused of actively intercepting and retaining information related to individuals, Canadian and otherwise, transiting through major Canadian airports. These activities were done without the cooperation of the airports involved, without a warrant, and with the suggestion that all of this was being done in contradiction of CSEC's lawful mandate. This seemingly happened despite the recent assurance by the Chief of CSEC, John Forster, that CSEC does not “target Canadians at home or abroad in our foreign intelligence activities, nor do we target anyone in Canada”.

We are now confronted with a serious problem. We have evidence, as reported by the CBC, that government agencies are collecting personal information about Canadian citizens at our airports through Wi-Fi intercepts. We also have conflicting assurances from the head of CSEC that, in fact, this is not occurring and that our security services are not, in fact, doing this sort of invasive surveillance. Challenged with these conflicting stories, what are members of Parliament to do? Are we to take the word, at face value, of people entrusted with leading our security services in compliance with the spirit and letter of the law? Do we simply decide to trust, or do we decide to trust and then verify?

The revelations we have heard over the past year about the NSA as a result of the documents leaked by Edward Snowden have unleashed a significant and profound debate in the United States, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere. Here in Canada, we are told that despite allegations about the collection of personal data by our own security services, all is well. We simply need to trust the government. We are told by the Minister of National Defence, with a wave of the imperial hand, that we have nothing to worry about and that the current system of checks is sufficient. We are told to trust but not to verify.

For many Canadians, this is not a satisfactory answer. Canadians, whether the government accepts it or not, are concerned, and we have a duty to respect those concerns. Again, do we simply trust, or do we trust and then verify?

We are obligated to take note of the profound revelations occurring across the globe that point to the massive collection of the data of citizens not only in Canada but elsewhere. We expect this sort of smothering surveillance from countries without any meaningful democratic principles, so when media reports alert us to the fact that our very own security services may be operating outside their authority, we have a duty and a responsibility to listen. We can not only trust. We must trust, yes, but we must also verify.

The “we” in this situation is us. We are, after all, the elected representatives put here in Parliament to represent Canadians. We have a duty to respond to the fear and concern of Canadians who feel that their personal data is being watched, accessed, and monitored at our Canadian airports. This is not a minor problem, and the government should know this.

I think we have an opportunity in the House today to address the concerns of Canadians and their personal data.

My colleague, the hon. member for Malpeque, in whose name the motion stands before the House, is appropriately versed in such matters. In the previous government, the hon. member was the Solicitor General of Canada. He was responsible to Parliament for the conduct of our law enforcement and intelligence agencies, so I believe Parliament and certainly members in this current House can learn from his experience.

The member for Malpeque has put forth a reasonable solution in calling for a national security committee of Parliament. This parliamentary committee would have special access to our security services, while respecting the legitimate need to protect the confidentiality of important national security matters.

The important element here is that this oversight is to be provided by a committee of Parliament that would then provide added and important parliamentary oversight to CSEC and CSIS.

I wonder, then, if members of the government would tell Canadians what specifically they find objectionable about the motion put forth by the member for Malpeque. The motion reads:

That the House express its deep concern over reports that Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) has been actively and illegally monitoring Canadians and call on the government to immediately order CSEC to cease all such activities and increase proper oversight of CSEC, through the establishment of a National Security Committee of Parliamentarians as laid out in Bill C-551, An Act to establish the National Security Committee of Parliamentarians.

I really do not understand why members of the Conservative government would oppose the motion. Surely more accountability to elected members of Parliament vis-à-vis our security services is a good move, as long as those members of the national security committee are senior members of our caucuses, duly vetted, and perhaps sworn members of Privy Council as well.

However, the Conservative members seem to be opposed to this for reasons that are not at all clear, although, to be fair, there is a suggestion or a view from across the aisle that sufficient oversight is already in place. That current oversight, as we know, involves a part-time semi-retired judge who is responsible for overseeing the activities of CSEC.

That is all well and good, but are we really saying, despite the serious revelations that our spy agencies are collecting the personal data of Canadians, that we cannot do more to provide proper oversight? Are we really saying that the concerns expressed here today in this House and by Canadians outside of this House are not worthy of at least having the discussion about the privacy of Canadians and the protection of their personal data? Should we not err on the side of more oversight rather than less?

The matter of privacy is not a new issue for Canadians. Not too long ago, we saw the Conservative government introduce a bill that would allow for massive surveillance into the personal lives of Canadians. That bill, introduced by the former Minister of Public Safety, Vic Toews, would have allowed government security agencies and the police unfettered access to our personal computers without warrant.

The Conservatives had no issue with Big Brother having access to our personal information without a warrant and they hoped that Canadians would not notice, or perhaps they hoped, cynically, that Canadians would not care. However, Canadians do care. They care about their rights, particularly when a government is so willing to snoop, without a warrant, into their personal lives. The response from Canadians to this bill, to this massive intrusion of privacy, was immediate and overwhelming. It was so overwhelming that the Conservatives were forced to back away from their e-snooping bill.

Canadians were rightly outraged, and they turned to Twitter in order to express their anger. We all remember the hashtag #tellviceverything that was created when literally tens of thousands of Canadians sent messages to Vic Toews, effectively telling him to butt out of their private lives.

Canadians told Conservatives that mass surveillance of citizens is unacceptable in a free and democratic society. Not willing to listen to the views of Canadians and unwilling to concede anything, the government simply introduced a new bill, ostensibly to tackle cyberbullying, but in fact it is a shameful cover to bring in almost every element of the old Vic Toews e-snooping bill.

The Conservatives' obsession with secrecy and flouting the privacy of Canadians is troubling. Surely we can do better than this. Surely we can do more to provide oversight to our security agencies so that Canadians can trust that their rights are not being set aside, or perhaps even violated, without their knowledge.

I really encourage Conservative MPs to do the right thing and support the motion put forward by the hon. member for Malpeque.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the first thing that comes out of the mouths of people in this place is that it should be non-partisan. This whole place is partisan all the time, right down to almost the glass we drink water out of. Any Canadian who believes for a minute that these things are not partisan really does not know how this place works.

The member referred to Mr. Snowden. Members across the way keep referring to what is happening in the United States. Canadian laws and regulations are specific, and they forbid these types of generalized viewing.

CSEC is mandated. The member said that whenever something is reported in the news, we have to do something. If we were under a Liberal government, I can see that every time a CBC, CTV, or whatever program claimed there was something wrong, it would strike a committee to do something about it right away. What kind of government is that?

We have had good oversight in this country for over 30 years. I do not know why the member does not accept that.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am relatively new here, having been elected just in 2011. I find it too bad that someone who has been in the House significantly longer than I have is saying that everything here is partisan. With respect, it does not have to be. I believe we are here to be the voice of our constituents in Ottawa and not Ottawa's voice in our constituencies, so I do not accept, and I do not think Canadians should accept, that everything has to be partisan. We have the capacity to work together, and there should be a lot more of that in this place.

I hope that everyone in this place can see a way to work together in the interests of our constituents, and that includes bipartisan co-operation on committees. It is possible. There just needs to be a will.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member would realize that bipartisanship is an American term. They have two parties there; here, we have a few more.

With respect to partisanship, I do not know if it is the water being served over there, but I would say to the member for Northumberland—Quinte West that the multi-party committees that operate in the U.K. and Australian parliaments and in the United States, where it is bipartisan both in the House of Representatives and the Senate, operate because it is important for them to do so, so there is no reason we could not do so here.

In this case, the partisanship is shown by the government rejecting an idea. The details can be debated, but it is an idea that was a product of a multi-party committee of members of this House, including two sitting cabinet ministers; the Deputy Speaker of the House, representing our party; and the member for Malpeque, who represented the Liberals back in 2004. Therefore, there was some sort of multi-partisan consensus at that time to the effect that there is a need for parliamentary oversight.

Why is that now gone? I wonder if the member could comment.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I share the concern of the member for St. John's East. This idea was not only brought forward in 2004 by the committee to which he refers; it was also advanced by the public safety committee in 2009 and a special Senate committee with respect to anti-terrorism measures in 2011. This is not something new; it is something for which the time has come.

It is difficult to understand why something is automatically a bad idea if it generates from this side of the House. I appreciate the hon. member's concern that there is no reason that we cannot work in the interests of Canadians and our constituents on this matter, even if it means reaching across party lines. It would be a healthy change.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as this is a chamber of debate, I would like to start by responding to an implication that I heard from the Conservative side. It was that we have had oversight for many years now, so why do we need something new?

In response, I would say that technology is a wonderful thing. It is something, however, that changes. We have had many changes in technology in the last 10 or 20 years, amazing changes. For example, I can contact someone with the push of a few buttons. All of us can. We have these great smartphones and all sorts of other ways of contacting people around the world instantaneously. There is no need to remember email addresses, no need to remember phone numbers or any other contact information. All that information is available at the touch of a button.

It is also around us, and it moves. That information moves from place to place as well. That is why it is always handy. I can start an app on my smartphone that can tell my family in real time where I am on a road, what my velocity is, and what my estimated time of arrival home for dinner might be. I could also run another app, a much more recent one, that can figure out where I am in a store, a museum, or a shopping mall and, by using the ambient Wi-Fi signals that are now ubiquitous in large buildings, send me content depending on where I am.

Technology changes, and that is the thing that has changed. That is why we have to look at what kinds of risks come out of the opportunities that are being exploited by technology. Technology can be used to serve people and can be used to protect Canadians, but it can also threaten privacy, and there is no reason that we should not have the public participate in a review of how the government uses technology to protect us from potential foreign threats.

Last week we learned from a leaked document that was obtained by the CBC that the Communications Security Establishment Canada, CSEC, may have illegally intercepted and tracked the personal information of ordinary Canadians who were using public Wi-Fi at Canadian airports, and then tracked those people or the devices that used the Wi-Fi as they travelled elsewhere.

The problem is that this happened at a Canadian airport, where undoubtedly many Canadians were using the public Wi-Fi and then became part of the tracking that was alleged to have taken place. The problem is that the Communications Security Establishment Canada is supposed to be keeping track of potential foreign threats, not monitoring Canadians.

Canadians, having heard about this story and having heard about what the NSA was doing in the United States, are worried about privacy and worried about the rule of law. They are wondering if we as Canadians need to rely on leaks from people like Edward Snowden in order to know how their government actually does its work.

Canadians are wondering what sort of information is private. They are wondering about the digital economy and what will happen if people fear using the Internet. They are worried about online government services. We know that the government is trying to move more and more government services to websites. It is very commendable to have good government websites that provide service to Canadians, but now it is very fair for Canadians to ask what the risks are and how they can know that their privacy is being respected.

What we are not hearing from the government is a flat denial and that Canadians' privacy is being respected. I know there is a conversation about the difference between data, which is, for example the content of an email, and metadata, which is information about who sent the email, who received the email, and what time the email was sent.

I know there is a difference, but Canadians are worried. The way that members of the public can and should respond to this concern is to have their elected representatives, parliamentarians, oversee what the government is doing. This is a way for Canadians to be assured that there is some sort of check on what the government is doing by people who are accountable to the public. This right that Canadians have is expressed through what their elected members of Parliament ask for, in this case today for oversight and accountability.

It is important to talk about the difference between aggregate data and private data. Here it is important for good government and smart government to know, for example, how many Canadians live where. Even a municipality needs to know what sort of sewage system to put in place and what capacity is required. We need to know the aggregate data on how many Canadians live in a certain place. We need to know how many people travel down a certain street, even for the simple reason that we want to manage the traffic or parking. We need to know how many people work in a certain industry, or how many people are out of work, so that we can be good economic managers. That is something that Statistics Canada, for example, has done very well, both protecting individual privacy but also providing aggregate numbers so that government can have a good idea of the country it is supposed to be governing.

What Canadians are worried about is information about individuals, about where a particular person lives, where that person goes, what time of day that person goes to a certain place, whom that person goes with, and how long someone stays in a certain place. These sorts of pieces of information about individuals are what Canadians worry might get into the wrong hands or be used for purposes that are not legitimate. Or, they simply want their privacy respected and do not want that information out there.

That is why the member for Malpeque has introduced Bill C-551 in this Parliament, which would create a national security committee of parliamentarians to oversee what the government, in particular the CSEC, is doing and to oversee from legislative, regulatory, government-policy, and administrative points of view what the agencies responsible for national security are doing. That parliamentary committee would be representing the public and giving the okay from the public for what the government decides to do regarding national security and privacy. This is not a particularly new idea. It has certainly been championed by Liberals for many years in government and in opposition, but it is something that is important to do. Canadians, directly or through their elected representatives, have a fundamental need to understand what their government is doing and to have confidence that their government is doing the right thing. A parliamentary committee is the right way to express that oversight.

I would also add that we have international partners, the U.K. and Australia, who have parliamentary oversight to protect the privacy of their citizens. Looking at it from CSEC's point of view, I am sure there are people in CSEC who want to do the right thing, so it would be very appropriate for them to consult with Parliament and say what they are doing and why they think they are addressing privacy concerns, just to get an okay from people of Canada.

I call on all members to support the motion today that the Liberal Party has proposed.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the whole Liberal mantra that we are hearing today is based upon false allegations, speculation, and innuendo. That is no basis for forming the oversight committee the Liberal members are proposing.

We heard right from the get go from the commissioner, who said that the Communications Security Establishment Canada has a culture of protecting privacy and is respecting the laws of Canada, including the Privacy Act, the Criminal Code, and the charter, in everything it does.

As for the allegation that something may have been done that the commissioner could not determine whether or not it was within the law, that was a single event that happened 10 years ago and there was just not enough information surrounding that to ascertain whether it was well within the law.

I would remind members that CSEC only targets non-Canadians and people who have any intentions of maybe doing something to Canada.

[An hon. member]

How do you know?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

It is about protecting our forces, Canada, and protecting us from cyber-security attacks and terrorism. I just want the member to recognize that.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order. Before I go to the member, I just want to remind all hon. members that while I appreciate the complexity of today's debate, the Chair would appreciate it if all hon. members, not just the last one who spoke, would keep their questions and responses within the normal amount of time, so that more members can participate.

The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague who, I guess one could say, heckled, or asked the following question: “How do you know?”

I think that is the question Canadians are asking and which we want to answer by forming this parliamentary committee.

How do we know? If we do not know, do we want to participate in the digital economy? Do we want to help the government move its services online?

We are putting at risk something that is very important part of our economy, the digital economy. Why do that? Why not just have some oversight by elected representatives from different parties to work together to help reassure the people of Canada that someone who represents them is overseeing what this particular government agency is doing?

I think CSEC would probably welcome that. It does not want to harm Canada; it does not want to harm the digital economy.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things the motion refers to is Bill C-551, about which the NDP has some concerns.

In particular, one part of the bill gives the Prime Minister the right to exclude certain parts of the committee report before that report is made public. Unfortunately, the Prime Minister's indebtedness to the people is even more abysmal than this government's past debts.

Considering his leader's decision to release all Liberal senators from the caucus, my colleague has himself faced similar arbitrary action. Given what must have happened within the caucus as a result, is he not concerned that this arbitrariness will keep us in the dark?

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is remarkable that he would talk about senators in this debate.

This is very simple: we want to establish a committee that Canadians can trust. The people should be able to trust their government. That is all we are asking for; it is very simple. I think all members of the House should be able to support today's Liberal motion.