House of Commons Hansard #97 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was honduras.

Topics

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:30 p.m.

NDP

José Nunez-Melo NDP Laval, QC

Mr. Speaker, please allow me to respond to the hon. member for York Centre. He has been asking pathetic questions like that all evening. Either he is way off topic or he is trying to get us to go off topic.

If he did not understand what I said in my speech, maybe it will be translated. However, what I said was that the NDP is trying to point out the repercussions of this free trade agreement. That has nothing to do with what he just said or a hypothetical carbon tax or whatever. What is more, he is talking about negotiation. My God. No, they will see what we are going to do in 2015.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:30 p.m.

NDP

Romeo Saganash NDP Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Mr. Speaker, the things we hear in the House at this time of night can be quite amusing. I will not repeat them.

I listened closely to my colleague's speech. As I was listening to the Conservative member's question, I was reminded why Canada's international reputation has suffered so greatly. We were in a very enviable position for quite some time. Our reputation was strong and solid until the Conservatives came to power. We are slowly losing our global influence. We on this side have been saying that the free trade agreements we are negotiating need to be in line with Canadian values. I would like to quote Sheila Katz, who said this:

The Americas Policy Group has recommended that Canada refrain from concluding free trade agreements with countries that have poor democratic governance and human rights records.

Would my colleague like to comment on that?

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:35 p.m.

NDP

José Nunez-Melo NDP Laval, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to answer my colleague. In fact, he was the one who spoke about the criteria. We need to be somewhat responsible about this. He himself reminded us that Canada, as a member of the United Nations and the World Trade Organization, has to follow certain rules. The government cannot carelessly impose a free trade agreement.

As I said, this is not about economic gain. There has always been a negative trade balance. We do not sell very much to the Hondurans. We buy many things from them. However, as I said, there is another goal here, and that is to somehow protect mining companies so that they cannot be held responsible when they make a mess in these third world countries by recklessly exploiting their natural resources.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

In 2013, when I sat on the Subcommittee on International Human Rights, we studied the case of Honduras at length. Therefore, I believe I have enough facts to oppose this bill, which is unacceptable.

The despotic regime that reigns in Honduras is characterized by its anti-democratic practices, its corruption, its failed institutions and its history of human rights violations. Canada should not be signing a free trade agreement with that country.

The NDP believes there are three fundamental criteria when considering a trade agreement. First, does the proposed partner respect democracy and human rights, acceptable environmental and labour standards, and Canadian values? Second, does the proposed partner's economy have significant or strategic value to Canada? Third, are the terms of the proposed agreement satisfactory?

The proposed agreement with Honduras does not meet any of these criteria, as we clearly showed in the previous debates, despite the fact that the Conservatives have used their majority to limit the time to review this bill. Only five hours of debate on a treaty that was negotiated over three years. This is ridiculous. I also find it difficult to understand why Liberal members would agree to signing an agreement with Honduras.

We are promoting an agreement with a brutal dictatorship, and I am choosing my words carefully. By signing this agreement, we are giving legitimacy to a regime put in place following a coup. The Subcommittee on International Human Rights heard several witnesses from Honduras and experts on this issue. I heard horror stories. Since the coup in Honduras, journalists, union representatives and people who are asking for greater democracy are being killed. In fact, they will kill anything they do not like in that country. Honduras is the murder capital of the world, and most of the murders are not even properly investigated by the police.

Professor Gordon of Wilfrid Laurier University, who testified before the committee, said that the possibility of a free election needs to be called into question. Some members of the opposition parties have been assassinated. In 2013, there was an average of 10 killings a month. According to Professor Dana Frank from the University of California, 80% of crimes in Honduras go unpunished. There are many documented cases of police corruption. Between January 2011 and November 2012 alone, the police carried out 149 summary executions of civilians. In January 2013, the United Nations asked for the removal of four judges of the Supreme Court of Honduras for violations of international standards and because there was a serious threat to democracy. In February 2013, the United Nations working group on the use of mercenaries indicated that the Government of Honduras had failed to properly regulate private security companies. These companies are involved in numerous cases of human rights violations, including murders, disappearances, forced expulsions and rapes.

Moreover, censorship is common in Honduras. It is alleged that journalists are corrupted and advertisements are manipulated to ensure that coverage is positive and to silence opponents.

According to the national human rights commission of Honduras, 29 journalists have been murdered since the coup.

This is the question I would ask: if Canadian mining engineers were murdered, what recourse would Canada have? It would have none. There is no justice and therefore murderers are not even prosecuted. It is in the interest of Canadian mining companies to have a certain legal framework in Honduras. I would ask them the following question: what good is a legal framework when there is no rule of law in the country?

Should Canada support, by means of a trade agreement, a government of thugs? The Honduran regime is corrupt. All the stakeholders have said the same thing and even the U.S. Senate acknowledged that this is unacceptable.

Will this agreement benefit Honduras? I seriously doubt it. Two years after the coup, 100% of the increase in income went to only 10% of the population, while poverty increased by 26%. This agreement will only benefit a corrupt elite.

Canada used to be a world leader in foreign affairs, renowned for its ability to help other organizations and other countries become more democratic, freer, fairer to its citizens and more respectful of human rights. However, agreements such as this one, supported by the Conservatives and the Liberals, will make us take a step backwards.

Entering into such an agreement with a corrupt government shows little concern for human rights and sends the message to similar countries that this is acceptable to Canada. The Conservative government and its partners, the Liberals, find that acceptable. We are debating an agreement with a brutal regime, and closure has been invoked.

We are trampling democracy, here and elsewhere, and I am sad to see the Liberal members supporting this process. The Conservative government imposed closure 68 times to end debate. Is that a sign that the government is turning away from democracy?

The agreement with Honduras was negotiated without any transparency and despite repeated requests from stakeholders in various sectors of Canada's economy. The Government of Canada was never willing to make the text of the agreement public during the negotiation process. Given these concerns, I am disappointed that my colleagues from the other parties want to support this treaty. This agreement is stained with the blood of Hondurans.

We risk damaging Canada's international reputation if we enter into a partnership with such a regime. My constituents of Brome—Missisquoi sent me here in the hope of building a different Canada.

In light of the facts that we have been able to show despite the time allocation brought in by the Conservatives, I will not support Bill C-20. I hope that Canadians will remember that the Liberals and Conservatives voted in favour of a tree trade agreement with a brutal dictatorship.

Comments by the member for Marc-Aurèle-FortinPoints of OrderGovernment Orders

11:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. Just a short while ago, the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin made a comment, which I was very alarmed at. I believe it was directed at me because of my Jewish faith. The member said that Israel is an apartheid state, that Muslims and Catholics do not have the same rights as Jews in the State of Israel. I would hope that the member would take this opportunity to apologize for that statement, to me and to the Jewish people and to the State of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.

Comments by the member for Marc-Aurèle-FortinPoints of OrderGovernment Orders

11:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The Chair will take this on advisement and give the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin a chance to reply to it.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Questions and comments, the hon. Minister of State for Foreign Affairs.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:45 p.m.

Blackstrap Saskatchewan

Conservative

Lynne Yelich ConservativeMinister of State (Foreign Affairs and Consular)

Mr. Speaker, Canada does have a development program that Honduras has been very appreciative of. The development funding supports regional multilateral initiatives as well as initiatives of Canadian partners in the areas of human rights, gender inequality, security, justice reform, citizen participation, and democratic governance. Canada believes that supporting economic and sustainable growth for the poor and reducing inequalities are essential to addressing the multiple challenges facing Honduras.

Recently there has been a new government and the new leader's priorities have been very much in line with our priorities. They also want to promote sustainable economic growth and reduce social exclusion and inequality through investments. They have worked through rural development, food security, health, and education. All of the priorities that we have, the new government in Honduras is working toward.

I would think that the NDP would be looking into some of the new changes that have happened in Honduras before its members continue to use such, I think, unacceptable language such that they have been using tonight. The member should know, with his recent remarks about working with the Hondurans and their blood, that in fact we are working very much with programs that are developing and--

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

June 5th, 2014 / 11:45 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for her question.

Unlike the Liberals and the Conservatives, who are ready to accept free trade agreements at all costs for the sake of a signing ceremony and photo ops, we, in the NDP, believe that the importance of international trade should be recognized.

We want to increase our international trade, but, at the same time, this has to be done in a manner consistent with Canadian values. We also want the Canadian economy to benefit from this trade.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:50 p.m.

Mégantic—L'Érable Québec

Conservative

Christian Paradis ConservativeMinister of International Development and Minister for La Francophonie

Mr. Speaker, I will echo the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs and Consular and remind my colleague again that efforts have been made on both sides, in Honduras. For example, Canada has implemented regional development programs. As for the new government in place, it is focusing more and more on sustainable economic growth and prosperity, which will help reduce social inequalities.

My colleague says that he wants to promote Canadian values, but I believe that what he really wants it to advance the NDP's partisan values, including turning down any type of trade agreement with another country.

As such, I will echo my colleague from York Centre, and again urge the NDP to leave the 19th century behind, join the 21st century and be part of what is happening in the international community. Being involved in international development also means doing trade with economies that are making an effort, instead of relying on all sorts of dictates that are totally disconnected from reality.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question. I am saying that Honduras does not need a co-conspirator. What Pablo Heidrich, an economist at the North-South Institute, said before the Standing Committee on International Trade on April 10, 2014, is that Honduras needs technical assistance and a certain level of pressure so that the government becomes more responsive to wider social demands and it stops being sort of a committee that administers the gains of a very limited group of people.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:50 p.m.

NDP

Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today about this free trade agreement between Canada and Honduras. Obviously, I am opposed to this agreement, and I am proud that my party is opposed to it too.

There are three fundamental criteria that must be considered when evaluating trade agreements. First, does the proposed partner respect democracy, human rights, adequate environmental and labour standards, and Canadian values? If there are challenges in this regard, is the partner on a positive trajectory toward these goals? Second, is the proposed partner's economy of significant or strategic value to Canada? Third, are the terms of the proposed agreement satisfactory?

Unfortunately, the free trade agreement with Honduras does not meet any of these criteria. I therefore do not really see why we would agree to sign such an agreement with that country.

Honduras is known for its undemocratic practices, its corrupt government, its weak institutions and a record of human rights abuses. It has poor standards and is of insignificant strategic value to Canada in the context of a free trade agreement. I therefore do not see the point of such an agreement.

The NDP wants increased trade with certain countries. Contrary to what the government seems to believe, we are not against trade, but we think it is important to do business with countries that uphold Canadian values and to conclude trade agreements that also benefit the Canadian economy.

Let me paint a picture of the country in question. It is a very poor country with repressive and anti-democratic political ideology. Honduras has an appalling human rights record. The democratically elected government of leftist President Manuel Zelaya was overturned by a military coup in 2009. The government's actions and the elections have since been heavily criticized by international observers for not meeting acceptable democratic standards.

The 2009 coup was carried out by the Honduran army under the pretext of a constitutional crisis that had developed between the Supreme Court and the president.The coup was widely condemned—I remember that because it was not so long ago—around the world, especially by all other Latin American countries, the European Union, the United States, and the UN General Assembly. Obviously it is very controversial.

I think it is important to point out that Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world and it is the most dangerous country for journalists. It also has very significant income disparity.

In taking stock of the situation, I came up with some questions. Is this really what Canada wants? Do we really want to flout human rights, democracy and social justice in the name of free trade and business? Is that really what we want as a country? That is what I am asking my colleagues.

In other words, the government is asking us to support undemocratic practices, corruption, crime and a growing gap between rich and poor.

Of course, the government is going to accuse us of opposing every free trade agreement, of being anti-trade and of being evil communists. Quite the opposite, actually. On this side of the House, we are keenly aware of how important trade is for our economy.

We, too, support Canadian exporters and we do not disagree with everything. However, we do not believe this should happen at any price, especially given that internal analyses done by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade have shown that Canada's economy stands to gain very little from this agreement.

Therefore, I am wondering why the government wants to trample many Canadian values for an agreement that will not even benefit our exporters and will certainly not benefit the Honduran people.

I really do not see the value of this agreement, and we are not the only ones. A number of stakeholders support our position, including Sheila Katz, a representative of the Americas Policy Group of the Canadian Council for International Co-operation. This is what she told the Standing Committee on International Trade on April 22, 2013:

The Americas Policy Group has recommended that Canada refrain from concluding free trade agreements with countries that have poor democratic governance and human rights records.

That says it all. This is what Neil Reeder, director general, Latin America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, said:

Corruption within the Honduran police force is a particular problem, which the Government of Honduras also recognizes. Largely because Central America is situated between the drug-producing countries of South America and the drug-consuming countries to the north, Honduras and its neighbours have been particularly affected by the growth of transnational drug trafficking, human trafficking, and the impact of organized crime. It's estimated that nearly 80% of all cocaine-smuggling flights departing South America touch land in Honduras before continuing northward.

I will end on that eloquent note. I could have quoted several other experts who oppose this agreement too, but I think these two quotes will suffice.

Canada-Honduras Economic Growth and Prosperity ActGovernment Orders

11:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin on a point of order.

Comments of the Member for Marc-Aurèle FortinPoint of OrderGovernment Orders

11:55 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Toronto rose on a point of order and accused me of all kinds of things.

During a private discussion that was not outside Parliament, we talked about an international situation. I did not insult him; that was not my intention. I did not use unparliamentary language. We talked about an international situation, and I am very disappointed that he took it that way.

It was certainly not my intention to insult him, and I did not use unparliamentary language.

Comments of the Member for Marc-Aurèle FortinPoint of OrderGovernment Orders

June 6th, Midnight

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The Speaker will return to this, if necessary. This may be considered closed.

It being 12 a.m., pursuant to order made Tuesday, May 27, the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly the House stands adjourned until later today at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 12 a.m.)