Debates of Dec. 9th, 2015

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2015-16

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we carry on, in terms of the format here, I would just like to mention that during the question and comment period of the 15 minute time period, questions would typically be directed to a minister or a parliamentary secretary. We just had an occasion where the opposite happened. Typically, of course, it is the member's 15 minutes. As the member indicated, he was going to take up to 10 minutes for his remarks followed by 5 minutes for questions and comments, at which point the member would typically then put a question to a parliamentary secretary or a minister in this format.

We will carry on with questions and comments. Members can pose questions to a minister or a parliamentary secretary.

I see the hon. member for Whitby standing.

[Celina Caesar-Chavannes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister]

Mr. Chair, my question is for the hon. minister and relates to the gathering of this data and how it can be used not only in decision-making but also to have an impact on our economy and allow it to grow based on gathering of data and better decision-making.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the question from the member for Whitby, and I congratulate her on her election to this House.

Our government is committed to evidence-based decision-making. To do that, we need to have the best possible information, whether it means restoring the long-form census or restoring the capacity of government departments to research and provide sound evidence to decision-makers on which to make decisions.

Science is part of it, but we also need better data, as an example, for the housing market. We are told by bank economists that in Canada today we do not have good, solid data on Canada's housing markets, which are fragmented across the country. That is not helpful in terms of homeowners and investors understanding the housing market to the extent that we ought to, or banks having as much data as they ought to. We are also told by economists that we do not have good labour market data that we need.

The long-form census is a key part of what we will do as a government, but it is only part of that. We will restore investments in science across this Parliament and agencies. We will support science and research in our universities. As my colleague, the parliamentary secretary and member for Charlottetown said earlier, we are committed to open data within government. That we have not had a review or an update of the access to information legislation since the early 1980s is absurd, given the remarkable change, much of which have been technologically driven, since then.

For Canadians, the transparency bus has left the station. Canadians, particularly young Canadians, wonder why more information is not available to them, and they are right. Our Prime Minister's commitment, as an opposition leader, as a leader in our platform, and as we move forward, is very strong. That commitment is something we take very seriously.

We will work with Public Works, for instance, which plays a pivotal role. We will work with all departments and agencies; Treasury Board plays an important role across every department and agency of government on this.

We look forward to engaging Parliament. We intend to really work more closely with parliamentary committees. I have a fairly high opinion of Liberal members of Parliament, but I do believe that members of Parliament from other parties have good ideas too. Those good ideas will help inform better decisions by this House.

When ministers from our government ask critics and opposition members on parliamentary committees for their input, we will be genuinely seeking their input because we want to make better decisions. There are good ideas from all parties in this House of Commons. We intend to work with members of Parliament from every party to help make sure that this Parliament makes the best possible decisions and renders the best public policy to move this country forward.

That is what Canadians want. They want smarter decisions from a less partisan and more constructive Parliament. I am pleased to say to Canadians, that is what they will get from this government.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the minister if he has given some thought to the team that he is planning to put in to collect information.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, we already have within our public service an exceptional team of people across departments and agencies of this government. We have Anita from Immigration, here with us today. We have Yaprak from Treasury Board and Brian. These are just three examples of the exceptional public servants we have serving Canadians every day within the Government of Canada. They will work very hard.

My hon. colleague, the former minister of veterans affairs, a Conservative colleague, just said we would do whatever they say. No, actually we will not do everything that the Public Service asks us to do, but we will seek from them their fearless advice, because we want to know, based on evidence, what the best way forward would be.

We will make the decisions ultimately based on a number of factors, but not before we respect our public servants enough to seek their fearless advice, and we will not muzzle our public servants, as did the previous government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we resume debate, I will just clarify the format again for all hon. members. If a member chooses not to share his or her time for the 15 minutes, that member and only that member can then pose questions for the ministers or parliamentary secretaries in this type of format. If members choose to share their time, then it is permissible for other members to pose questions for the ministers or parliamentary secretaries.

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman.

Before I ask my first question, I would like to say that our colleagues on the government side have been blinded by their sunny ways. We are here today to determine whether our federal financial resources are being properly used, in the context of refugee resettlement. The government is winging it quite a bit. It seems to be making things up as it goes along.

I have some straightforward questions about defence. My first question goes back to what I just said. Yesterday, the commander of CFB Valcartier, in the Quebec City area, told the media that he had been ordered under Operation PROVISION to ready the base to receive refugees. He did not receive any clear instructions or a budget for this operation. Being a good soldier, he took the initiative of taking $2.7 million out of his own internal budget to ready the base as best he could, given the mission he had been assigned. He made that statement to journalists who had been invited to visit the base.

Can the minister tell us what an order to ready a military base means and where the money to do so will come from?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I can say that the military base will provide temporary accommodation, if necessary. If government-sponsored refugees arrive and do not have permanent housing right away, they will stay on the military base. This is one of the ways in which the military is helping us in this process. We hope that refugees will not have to live on military bases, at least not for long, because we hope they will find housing.

Basically, this is the Government of Quebec's responsibility, because in Quebec, the provincial government is looking after that part of the project.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I understand the minister's answer.

However, every military base in Canada was instructed to prepare, yet they were not given any money to do so. The Valcartier base publicly announced that it had taken $2.7 million from its own budget. What about the other bases, such as Petawawa, Borden and Trenton? We need to know.

The bases will be there for overflow, which is perfect. However, the money used to set up the bases will not be available for other potentially important future needs of our men and women in uniform.

Similarly, does the minister know approximately how many Canadian Forces troops will be relocated off military bases, if need be? Have plans already been made?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, that would be a question for the Minister of National Defence.

However, if memory serves, he said that regulars would not be displaced. There may be an impact on temporary soldiers, but that will not interrupt the regular operations of our Canadian Forces.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, we understand that none of our troops will be displaced. That is perfect. If I understand correctly, cadet camps will be used on all of the bases. Is that correct?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, yes, that is what I understand, based on what the Minister of National Defence said. However, that is really a question for him and not me.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, my colleague could ask him, since we need to know the costs associated with these issues.

Operation PROVISION, the military operation in support of refugee resettlement, includes two important components. Reserve resources have been requested, and several hundred reservists have started work.

I would like to know which budget will be used to pay these reservists. Will the funds come from the internal budget, the reservists' training budget or a supplementary budget?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, as I have already said, and it is even more clear in this case, reservists and the Department of National Defence's budget do not fall under my jurisdiction. Although I was the defence minister a few years ago, I am not anymore. I therefore cannot answer that question.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, those are all of the questions that I had.

With regard to the points that I made, it is important to understand that we have not been given any specifics on several aspects of the budget. We therefore need more information in that regard.

I am giving my colleague the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles for his intervention. As a lieutenant colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces, of course he is extremely concerned about how this operation is impacting our forces here at home.

Of course, I know that everyone at National Defence and Canadian Forces is more than excited to be part of the mission, making sure they are providing the resources we need to do this in an expeditious manner, and making sure the refugees get here securely as well.

As has already been pointed out, though, we are dealing with supplementary estimates (B) and there is not a single red dime in the estimates that accounts for the extra costs that are being incurred by the Canadian Armed Forces. I know the minister has already said this is not about National Defence, but there are costs associated with it. There is the cost of temporary housing that is being done on base with the winterization of cadet barracks. This is a one-time use and of no value to the Canadian Armed Forces down the road. Why are those numbers not in the estimates?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the President of the Treasury Board just mentioned to me—and it is a similar answer to the one he gave earlier to another question—that sometimes the departments incur these expenditures through cash management in the short run, but if there is an incremental need, those will come up in supplementary estimates (C). That is a general statement, but I cannot speak to the specifics of the defence file.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, we know that 190 troops have been deployed, helping with medical and security screening. We know that there are upwards of 6,000 to 7,000 refugees that could potentially be housed on bases across Canada, predominantly in Ontario and Quebec. There are costs to having refugees on these bases. Is this going to come out of operational budgets, and will this distract from the training, readiness, and capabilities of the Canadian Armed Forces on base?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have just said it would not detract from the operational forces on the base. One should bear in mind that the vast majority of the refugees coming between now and the end of the year are, in fact, privately sponsored refugees: 8,000 out of 10,000. Not one of those will go on a military base. They will go directly, or almost directly, to the person who sponsored them, whether it is a family member, church group, or whatever. That is only 2,000 across the whole country that might, for a short time, be housed on military bases. If we are lucky, if we have our act together, there may be virtually no one needing to be lodged on military bases. That remains to be seen.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, we already know they are making accommodations for up to 6,000 to 7,000 refugees on base. There were orders to leave quarters given to members of the Canadian Armed Forces, many of them cadets in training. These are people who are trying to advance their careers, who are actually trying to move up the rank system. There has been disruption to those career paths for those professionals in the Canadian Armed Forces.

More importantly, we know that there have been tenders. I do not know if they followed Treasury Board guidelines or not, but there have been contracts issued to allow the winterization of cadet barracks. These are summer barracks that are used in places like CFB Borden and down in Trenton. Therefore, we need to know where those dollars are coming from. It is my understanding that they are coming out of the operational budgets of each individual base. These monies are very scarce and well used for the overall operational activities of the Canadian Armed Forces. Why does the government not have those dollars in these estimates?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Chair, I have spoken with personnel at the Aldershot reserve base in my riding. I have also spoken with defence personnel who were active when the Kosovar refugees came some time ago. They are absolutely enthusiastic about participating in this great national project of welcoming the Syrian refugees.

The budgeting process is such that DND has, within its $13.6 billion operating budget, the capacity to handle the costs incurred in this process. In the future, if there are incremental costs, they can submit them to Treasury Board for supplementary estimates (C) or the main estimates.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, we know there were orders given to all bases to be ready. Orders were handed out, and in some bases upwards of 400 people were forced to leave quarters. Now the member is saying that they may not be able to use all that space, that it might not be needed at all, according to the Minister of Immigration.

Again, is there a plan? What exactly is going on here? Did it change?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, one has to understand that when one is bringing over 25,000 people from Jordan and Lebanon, there are many moving parts. That is why we have contingencies in our estimates. We are being fiscally prudent.

One does not know months in advance precisely how much accommodation will be available in every town, village, and city across the country, so we make an allowance so in case accommodation is not ready elsewhere, there is temporary accommodation provided.

That does not mean there is not a plan. This means there is a prudent plan that deals with these possible contingencies.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I guess there are changes we are dealing with. When we look back to during the election, the Liberals were talking about 25,000 by December 31. Here we are in the first part of December and we still have not seen the plane loads arrive.

How many Syrian refugees arrived between November 4 and today? How many more are expected from here on in? Is that why the plan has changed? How is that impacting the readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces bases?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I dispute virtually all the premises of those questions.

The plan changed once. We announced the change about bringing in 25,000 by the end of the year. We listened to Canadians to do it right. If it takes a little extra time to do it right, then it takes the time, and that is what we have done.

Since that time, we have had one single plan, and because of the factors I have just mentioned, it is normal that we have temporary accommodation available in case it is needed.

In answer to the member's question about numbers, the target is 10,000 by the end of this year; 416 have arrived since November 4; almost 12,000 are in the process of being screened, and there are more numbers.