House of Commons Hansard #191 of the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-26.

Topics

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, as usual, the member for York West has a candid way of getting right to the issue that is so important to the constituents we represent.

The best example that I could give, that has been raised and brought to the attention of the government, is the group called Circles of Support and Accountability. It has done an incredible amount of work. What is important to note is that the government has cut back funding. The member is talking about prevention. Let us imagine, and this is coming from a government report, that 240 sexual crimes never happened because of Circles of Support and Accountability.

We can do more to prevent crimes of this nature from taking place. When the member makes reference to cyberspace or Internet exploitation, we just need to look at how the government has mandated that departments save money and not spend their full budgets. We have the RCMP unit responsible for child exploitation over the Internet which has constantly underspent by $2 million. By doing that, we are allowing for child exploitation, and that could have been targeted by the RCMP had they spent their full budget. We are talking about $10 million.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, this gets back to the question of resources allocated. Any bill that calls for much stricter monitoring of people charged with or convicted of committing sexual offences against children requires resources. Whenever the government introduces these kinds of bills, however, it rarely includes additional resources for our police forces and law enforcement agencies.

Another important aspect is the issue of prevention. One of my constituents has initiated a movement to raise awareness about pedophilia, among other issues. Unfortunately, this problem does still exist today, and people need to be aware of it.

I would like to hear what my colleague from Winnipeg North has to say about the resources that should be at the government's disposal, not only to impose tougher penalties but also to prevent these acts from happening in the first place and to raise awareness about the scourge of sexual assault against children.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the member is quite right. It is more than just passing legislation. Bill C-26 has the support, from what I understand, of all members of the House. I do believe that all members recognize the importance of the issue, and we are voting in favour of and passing the legislation.

However, there is a great deal of difference between this side of the House and the government side of the House in terms of what the government is doing to provide the resources that are necessary and demonstrating the leadership that is necessary, if I could focus on this point, to work with the different stakeholders, to deal with the issue of child exploitation, whether on the Internet or in the communities, whether dealing with socially dysfunctional families in our communities to those troubled youth who are having a difficult time because of circumstances that they have found themselves in, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is so much more that we could be doing. That means working with the different groups, the non-profits and others. It means working with the different levels of government at the municipal and provincial levels and developing a more comprehensive plan to deal with this very important issue. This is something that the leader of the Liberal Party is committed to doing and that our caucus and, I suspect, other caucuses are attempting to do. From the Liberal Party's perspective, we take this issue seriously and we challenge the government not only to present the budget but to deal with issues of this nature in the budget, along with middle-class jobs I must say.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Simcoe—Grey Ontario

Conservative

Kellie Leitch ConservativeMinister of Labour and Minister of Status of Women

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources.

I am pleased to rise and speak to Bill C-26, the tougher penalties for child predators act. Bill C-26 seeks to ensure that child sex offenders are held accountable for the horrific crimes they commit against the most vulnerable members of our society, Canadian children.

This bill proposes to achieve this important goal through a range of different measures, which include amendments to the Criminal Code and the Sex Offender Information and Registration Act, as well as the creation of a high risk child sex offender database.

The objective of Bill C-26 should be one that all parliamentarians support, yet some have questioned the necessity of the proposed amendments. These amendments are necessary, sadly, because the incidence of child sexual offences continues to rise.

In 2013, police-reported sexual offences against children increased again, this time by 6%, and 2011 and 2012 each saw a 3% increase. As Statistics Canada noted, “...sexual violations against children was one of the few categories of violent offences to increase in 2013.” These numbers are cause for concern, and we feel compelled to reinforce our response to these serious crimes.

Bill C-26 better reflects the seriousness of child sexual offences by proposing to increase mandatory minimum penalties and maximum penalties for many child sexual offences. I can say from personal experience, from meeting these young children in emergency departments, that these are horrific crimes. These children are damaged for life, mentally and physically, and it is appalling to me that some members of the House may not be supporting these most basic protections and may not be supporting how we propose to treat the individuals who perpetrate these crimes against children.

In addition to increasing the penalties for making and distributing child pornography, which is also included in the bill, Bill C-26 proposes to make these offences strictly indictable to better reflect their severity. Child pornography offences have devastating and long-lasting impacts on victims, particularly when they are posted on the Internet, where they can reside for someone's entire life.

The bill would also ensure that it would be considered an aggravating factor to commit an offence while subject to a conditional sentence, order, parole, or statutory release.

To assist in preventing future offences by known or suspected child sexual offenders, Bill C-26 proposes higher penalties for those convicted of breaching supervision orders. It is our responsibility, once those offenders are released into the community, to ensure that supervision orders imposed on them are observed and that breaches of conditions imposed to protect children result in serious consequences.

To achieve this objective, Bill C-26 proposes to increase the maximum penalties for breaches of prohibition orders, probation orders, and peace bonds. These types of orders often contain conditions intended to protect children. Maximum penalties for breaches of conditions of any of these orders would be increased from six to 18 months if proceeded on by summary conviction and from two to four years if proceeded on by indictment.

Our government is committed to ending sentence discounts for child sexual offenders. To that end, Bill C-26 requires courts to order, in all cases, that sentences imposed for child pornography offences be served consecutively to sentences imposed for other contact child sexual offences. Bill C-26 would also ensure that offenders who sexually abuse multiple children do not receive sentence discounts just because they are sentenced at the same time for offences involving multiple victims.

Bill C-26 would clarify the text of the subsection of the Criminal Code that contains the general rules regarding concurrent and consecutive sentences. Its current wording is the result of an amalgamation of rules that predate Confederation and, as such, require clarification and modernization.

Bill C-26 also proposes to codify certain sentencing rules applicable to the imposition of concurrent and consecutive sentences, such as the imposition of concurrent sentences for offences committed as part of the same criminal transaction, also referred to as the “same event or series of events” rule.

Bill C-26 also proposes to codify certain sentencing rules applicable to the imposition of concurrent and consecutive sentences. By way of example, one such rule provides for the imposition of concurrent sentences for offences committed as part of the same criminal transaction, also referred as “the same event or series of events” rule.

However, courts have also acknowledged that consecutive sentences should be imposed in certain circumstances even if the offences in question were committed as part of the same event or series of events. Bill C-26 would recognize two of these circumstances. An offence committed while fleeing from a peace officer would be served consecutively to any other sentence arising out of the same event or series of events, and a sentence imposed for an offence committed while on bail would also be served consecutively to any other sentence imposed.

Bill C-26 would also amend the Canada Evidence Act to ensure that spouses of individuals accused of child pornography offences are compelled witnesses for the crown. In some situations, the testimony of an accused's spouse may be required to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. An example would be a case in which child pornography was found on a home computer.

Our government recognizes that criminal legislation alone is an incomplete response to child sexual abuse, and the criminal justice system's response to sexual violations against children must be multi-pronged. Bill C-26 forms an integral part of that response. I must say that I am also particularly pleased that our government has allocated over $10 million for new or enhanced child advocacy centres to address the needs of child and youth victims of crime. These centres assist in the recovery of children and youth who have undergone this incredible trauma.

As I can say from personal experience with the children that I have met, these resources that are being made available now through child advocacy centres across the country are needed. We as a government are focused on a multi-pronged approach that uses legislation and enforcement to not only make sure that the perpetrators of these crimes are held accountable but also that these young victims of crime receive the support they require so that they can rehabilitate and have prosperous lives.

I hope that all members of the House will support this important legislation to protect children at third reading.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for her speech.

The Liberal Party agrees with the measures in Bill C-26. It is important to take appropriate measures to combat the growing problem of child pornography and child abuse. We have to do something. We also agree that there should be more penalties set out for these situations.

We still do not know when the next budget will be tabled, but can we expect it to include money and resources to address this situation?

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speculate on what is in the next budget, nor will I. That is obviously something we will all learn in the future. However, what I will say—and I ask the member opposite not to mislead the public—this government has made substantive investments in making sure, through a multi-pronged approach—that children are protected and supported.

Child advocacy centres across the country in more than 20 locations provide exactly those supports. As well, the government's substantive investment to support victims since 2006 amounts to over $120 million. These are things that the opposition members have not supported in many cases, so if they are passionate about this and we move forward on these initiatives, I would urge them to please support all of them. Victims of these heinous crimes deserve their support, and I would hope that the members opposite would find it in themselves to continually support these initiatives.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Scarborough Centre Ontario

Conservative

Roxanne James ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Speaker, while the minister was delivering her speech, I went online to search for child advocacy centres and looked at some of the statistical information with regard to the number of both female and male children and youth who have suffered some form of sexual abuse before the age of 18. I found the statistics actually quite staggering. I was shocked to read those in print on multiple sites.

I am wondering if my hon. colleague could elaborate on the importance of the child advocacy centres that are across Canada.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague, the parliamentary secretary for public safety. She is doing outstanding work, particularly in areas like this and on other bills, such as Bill C-51.

The child advocacy centres across the country serve an important purpose. They have teams of professionals who support children. They also provide opportunities for victims to bring forward their stories when they are under the most traumatic of circumstances. The Sheldon Kennedy Child Advocacy Centre in Calgary, for example, which is supported by this government, is one of those centres and makes sure that the young victims of these horrendous crimes are well supported.

In addition to that, our government has been very focused on a number of initiatives to make sure that children in particular are safe. I encourage all members in the House to look at getcybersafe.gc.ca and to tell others about it. It is a substantive initiative to make sure that young Canadians are protected in their own communities.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for her speech.

The NDP obviously supports this bill. We are not opposed to virtue. In fact, there is nothing more important to our society's future than our youth. There is nothing more destructive for them than the shocking attitude of these psychopaths who are very active online, for instance.

I understand my colleague's irritation when the party that was not more active than hers asks for more money. However, I deplore the attitude of the Conservatives when they said that they do not know what is in the budget and, above all, that we voted against this type of initiative.

As we speak, we can see that the Conservatives want to rush to make these announcements and ignore what certain experts said in committee. The witnesses who told us their stories said that it is not a bad bill and that they actually support it, but that it would be better if the Conservatives were more open-minded.

Why are the Conservatives so doggedly determined to attain their own objective rather than seeking more of a consensus on something that everyone obviously agrees with?

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be very clear on the reason we are pressing on this issue. I will be frank: I am not here to protect child predators; I am here, and my impression from the member opposite is that he is as well, to protect Canadian children.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar Saskatchewan

Conservative

Kelly Block ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise in this House today to speak to Bill C-26, the tougher penalties for child predators act.

Before I begin, I would like to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights for their important study of the bill and for moving it forward in an expeditious manner.

Since our government was elected, we have taken tremendous steps forward to ensure that streets and communities are safe places to live, work, and raise our families. We have worked tirelessly for these changes, especially when it comes to protecting the most precious and vulnerable members of our society, our children.

In 2011, we strengthened the National Sex Offender Registry through the implementation of the Protecting Victims from Sex Offenders Act. This legislation ensures that every individual convicted of a sexual offence is automatically registered with the National Sex Offender Registry and must provide a DNA sample to the National DNA Data Bank. It also added provisions to include on the National Sex Offender Registry those individuals who have been convicted of sex offences abroad and who then return to Canada.

In addition to these key reforms, the Protecting Victims from Sex Offenders Act addressed several important operational issues, such as the inclusion of registered sex offenders' vehicle information in the National Sex Offender Registry and allowing federal and provincial correctional services to notify registry officials when a registered sex offender is admitted into custody or is released into the community, including for temporary releases of seven days or more.

Through the Safe Streets and Communities Act, passed in 2012, we strengthened the Criminal Code's prohibitions against sexual exploitation by creating new mandatory minimum sentences for existing offences related to child exploitation and by increasing the mandatory minimum penalty for other existing offences; by prohibiting convicted child sex offenders from having any unsupervised contact with a young person under the age of 16 or having unsupervised use of the Internet or other digital devices; and by prohibiting convicted child sex offenders from being in public places where children can reasonably be expected to be present, requiring them to remain in specified geographic areas, and requiring them to abstain from drug and alcohol abuse or use.

We have also passed legislation that makes it illegal to provide sexually explicit material to a child for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence against that child.

We have increased the age of protection, the age at which a young person can legally consent to sexual activity, to 16 years of age, where previously it was 14.

We also continue to keep Canadians safe at the border with our Canada Border Services Agency officers employing effective border policies that prevent sex offenders from entering Canada. In fact, in 2014 alone, referrals provided by U.S. Customs and Border Protection concerning sexual offenders travelling to Canada led to 59 instances when the Canada Border Services Agency was able to refuse entry at the border.

We have reached significant milestones to make our streets and communities safer for everyone, but there is still work to do.

Canadians have the right to go about their daily lives without fear, and that is especially true when it comes to the fear of their children experiencing the emotional turmoil of sexual abuse.

In 2013, police reported approximately 4,200 incidents of sexual violations against children. That is a 6% increase from 2012. I am sure that all members can agree that one child victim is one too many.

We must ensure that our focus is balanced and that it protects the rights of victims and law-abiding citizens. This brings me to why I am speaking today. The changes proposed in Bill C-26 before us would allow our government to strengthen measures to better protect our children from sexual exploitation.

First and foremost, there are a number of amendments to the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act, including requiring that those convicted of contact child sexual offences against multiple children serve their sentences consecutively, one after another, to recognize the serious nature of the offence against each victim; requiring that those convicted of child pornography and contact child sexual offences serve their sentences consecutively; increasing maximum and minimum penalties for child sexual offences; increasing penalties for violations of conditions of supervision orders; and allowing spouses to provide testimony that is often needed to secure convictions in these important cases.

This legislation will also make vital changes to the National Sex Offender Registry by enhancing law enforcement's knowledge of registered sex offenders who are travelling abroad. For example, a registered sex offender would be required to give advance notice of the dates and every address or location at which they expect to stay for travel of seven days or more outside Canada. Those with a conviction for a sex offence against a child would be required to provide this information for all travel, regardless of the duration of the trip.

As part of this legislation, we would improve information sharing about high-risk sex offenders between officials responsible for the National Sex Offender Registry and the Canada Border Services Agency. As it currently stands, officials in charge of the registry are not authorized to share information on registered sex offences with Canada Border Services Agency.

What is more, officers at the border are not able to provide information to the officials at the National Sex Offender Registry to confirm the date of a sex offender's departure and return and where the person has stayed outside Canada. It is of utmost importance that we give our border services officers the authority and information they need to do their jobs and keep Canadians safe.

Therefore, we are proposing that all registered sex offenders be required to report every driver's licence number and passport number they hold and the name of each respective issuing jurisdiction. This would enable officials to disclose this information to the Canada Border Services Agency with other identifying information about registered sex offenders, particularly in cases of high-risk child sex offenders, and ensure that they are included in the Canada Border Services Agency lookout system.

The final element in this bill would further contribute to the safety of our communities by providing the public with access to a database of information regarding high-risk child sex offenders. The high risk child sex offender database act would authorize the RCMP to establish and administer a national publicly accessible database containing information on high-risk child sex offenders who have been the subject of a public notification in a provincial or territorial jurisdiction. Public safety officials are consulting with their provincial and territorial counterparts to discuss public notifications for high-risk offenders and the criteria to be used to determine which high-risk child sex offenders would be included in the database.

In summary, the bill before us today would ensure that penalties for child sexual offences better reflect the serious nature of these crimes. We believe that all child sex offenders should be held fully accountable for their actions.

These heinous crimes cause unimaginable devastation in the lives of children and their families. This is why, as a government, we must do everything in our power to protect our most vulnerable. I am very pleased to know that all hon. members in this House support this important piece of legislation.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party has been fairly clear on this piece of legislation. We support it. We feel that there are things the government can do to improve the conditions for dealing with child exploitation. This is a bill that will provide an opportunity to assist. To that extent, members of the Liberal caucus will be voting for it.

In my speech and in the speeches of other members, and in particular that of the Liberal Party critic, we have talked about the importance of resources. I wonder if the member is prepared to provide any thoughts on what she believes should or could be incorporated in the budget in terms of resources, emphasizing that it takes not only legislation to deal with this very important issue.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Speaker, while I will not speculate with regard to what will be in the budget, it is my understanding that no new federal funding will be required. Both the RCMP and CBSA will be able to apply the new legislation within their current resources.

We know that policing across Canada involves many jurisdictions and that there may be resource implications for the provinces and territories in implementing the measures in this bill, as they are responsible for the implementation of the SOIRA in their respective jurisdictions, including enforcement orders by police.

We will continue to work with our provincial and territorial partners in the implementation of the legislative proposals introduced in this bill.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

March 27th, 2015 / 12:45 p.m.

Scarborough Centre Ontario

Conservative

Roxanne James ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons I decided to get into politics was because of my strong views on improving the criminal justice system and support for victims, but I have to say that at the top of the list was the protection of the most vulnerable members of society, our children.

I remember that when we introduced this legislation, I wrote directly to my constituents and received overwhelming support for the measures contained in this act, including those for ending the two-for-one deals child sexual predators were given when multiple offences of child sexual abuse were committed against different children.

I would like to ask the member why this legislation is so important for the protection of children.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Speaker, reforms enacted by the Safe Streets and Communities Act, specifically those relating to child sexual offences, came into effect in August 2012. They increased the penalties for some child sexual offences, but more needs to be done to further protect our children.

Every day in Canada vulnerable children are the victims of sexual abuse. As was mentioned, over 3,900 sexual violations against children were reported to police in Canada in 2012, an increase of 3% from 2011, and the same increase was seen from 2010 to 2011.

There are also increased concerns regarding the mobility of travelling sex offenders. Internationally, approximately one million children are exploited by sex tourists and sex traffickers each year. This is unacceptable, and we must do more to deter and punish offenders. The new measures now being introduced would assist in ensuring that all child sex offenders are held fully accountable for acts of child sexual exploitation and abuse.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary if she could expand on her comments about the punishments associated with these reprehensible acts and also if she could give us a perspective on what her constituents would support in this important area. It seems that many Canadians would be surprised that the laws are not already stricter.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Speaker, these amendments would increase penalties for many child sexual offences to better reflect the serious nature of these offences and would ensure that sentencing takes into account each victim in these cases.

Currently, when an offender is sentenced for multiple separate offences, courts can require that the sentences be served consecutively, one after the other, or concurrently, at the same time. The new law would require these sentences to be served consecutively in certain cases.

As a mother and a grandmother, I know that this legislation is very important when it comes to our children and the real fear that they will experience the emotional turmoil of sexual abuse should something ever happen, and I know that my constituents reflect that view as well.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise you that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant.

I support Bill C-26 to amend the Criminal Code to do a number of things to deal with the scourge of child predators. It would amend the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and create a high-risk child sex offender database, as well as make a number of changes to the Criminal Code, which I will discuss during my remarks.

This bill is consistent with the zero tolerance policy that my party, the NDP, has with respect to child sexual crimes. Sexual crimes against children have to be dealt with in the most effective manner possible. The issue then before us is whether this bill will do what it says it is trying to achieve, a goal which we applaud. The question, then, is whether some of the mandatory new minimum sentences and the consecutive sentences provisions will do the job or whether judicial discretion, which has been the case before this, will still be a relevant way to proceed.

It will be my argument that although the bill is useful in some regard, it seems to ignore the evidence in a couple of key provisions, evidence that was brought before the committee that studied the bill, which I will refer to during my remarks.

It would increase existing mandatory minimum and maximum penalties. It would amend the Evidence Act to ensure that spouses of the accused would be competent and compellable witnesses where child pornography would be involved.

It would also amend the Sex Offender Information Registration Act to increase the reporting requirements when sex offenders travelled outside the country. There is some question as to wether the laudable end goal would be achieved in practice. It would enact a high-risk child offender database to establish a publicly accessible database containing information that police would have previously made accessible to the public in other places. We have that under the legislation in my province and in others, I understand. This would create that kind of accessibility across the country.

As I said at the outset, our party has a long-standing zero tolerance policy when it comes to sexual offences against children and we therefore wonder whether this bill will do the job, protect children and keep our communities safe. For reasons I will describe, I am not sure it will do so. Simply having a tough on crime rhetoric and building more prisons and the like will be ineffective, as many of the experts said when they testified.

It is a question of having the resources available in the communities to do the job, as well as having legislation, which in and of itself is a partial measure. However, if we give people the tools and they do not have the ability to implement them because they do not have the budget, what good have we done except disappoint Canadians in our response? Therefore, are the necessary resources available? The answer appears to be no.

We have suggested that necessary resources be earmarked for the RCMP registry and budgets be made available to support victims. For example, the NDP fought for the Circles of Support and Accountability program only to find out that the measly $650,000 in funding that Correctional Service Canada offered was simply all and that it would not do the job.

CoSA, which is the Circles of Support and Accountability to which I have referred, receives funding from the National Crime Prevention Centre, which will end this fall. It costs $2.2 million a year. CoSA has been extraordinarily successful in having people settle into normal lives. Just having coffee and ensuring people are on track has proven, as it has been studied, to actually work and make a difference. Will there be money available for such programs? I do not think so, and that is what is so problematic about the bill.

If the government really were tough on crime, aside from getting good talking points, it would put its money where its mouth is.

Let us talk about what some of the experts have said about the specifics of the bill and see whether it is evidence-based or merely populous.

The politics are that we all join in wanting to make our communities safer for children, but one of the ways the Conservatives think they will do so is to have what they call mandatory minimum sentences for various offences. A long list is created.

The law requires, however, that there be a proportionate sentence for the offender and the offence. That is what the Constitution tells us. Rather, the Conservatives have mandatory minimum sentences throughout this. The message from Mr. Michael Spratt, who testified on behalf of the Criminal Lawyers' Association to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, is that it will not work. From evidence on February 16, he said:

—the message that's being sent, that minimum sentences and harsher sentences make us safer. You know that's not true. You've been told that before. You've been told that by me, and you've been told that by other experts. The evidence suggests quite the opposite —minimum sentences don't make communities safer. They don't deter the commission of offences. They impede rehabilitation. They are costly, and they can be unconstitutional.

It looks good, sounds good, but it does not work.

Another witness from the Canadian Bar Association, a former crown attorney, Mr. Paul Calarco, said that there were very significant increases in this statute with respect to minimum offences, but stated:

I believe it is far more likely now that there will be constitutional challenges, there will be a finding of gross disproportionality, and that means the entire sentencing regime must be struck down.

Does that sound like a good way to protect our children?

It is not just these people. The famous Professor Anthony Doob from the University of Toronto testified that, “mandatory minimum penalties of this kind do not deter crime”. “Steve Sullivan testified, not only speaking to the ineffectiveness of minimum sentences but also how they can make the situation worse”. So many experts testified, asking and making the same point, that it would be likely to be held unconstitutional, therefore being a waste of time.

Also in terms of lack of evidence regarding the sexual offence registry, Mr. Calarco talked to the fact that:

There is little evidence to suggest that sexual offender registries, as they are presently constituted, prevent sexual assaults. This can be seen in both the reports of the Auditor General of Ontario and the John Howard Society....

[The] bill does not make the prevention of sexual exploitation any more likely. [Its] reporting requirements are unlikely to have any discernible effect on public safety, or will be unenforceable when they deal with matters outside [the] country....

He goes on to say that so many of the people involved in these horrible crimes are in family situations and that it will do nothing for them. A registry would not prevent these kinds of incidents. One of the most important ways to ensure a safe and just society is by rehabilitating the offenders.

Is that not what we want, to rehabilitate as opposed to simply show society's disgust with the crimes at issue?

If the experts and the evidence are saying that these kinds of measures, minimum mandatory sentences, simply will not work, if they are saying that we need more money to do the job, and if they are saying that the registries are not particularly effective, we need to address why in committee the Conservatives rejected the amendments that were proposed by the NDP to try to improve the bill.

The New Democrats suggested, for example, that the information in the new database could not be used to identify the victims and that it should be clarified. That was rejected. It was suggested to require that the minister report annually to Parliament on whether the bill was working. The Conservatives did not want that either. It is unclear why they would reject that kind of accountability. The Conservatives like to brag about accountability in their rhetoric, but when it comes to actually doing the job, they do not want to take those steps.

This is a position that puts us in great difficulty. Of course we support this bill because we have zero tolerance for sexual crimes involving children. However, we are dubious as to whether it will achieve its objectives. We wish it were more evidence-based because the evidence before the committee and before Parliament is that some of these measures will not do the job.

Nevertheless, we stand in support of the bill, wishing the Conservatives would allow a review, as they have done with other legislation, after a certain period of time so Parliament can assess whether it has been effective.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill C-26.

Like most members on this side of the House, I am a bit concerned. We will support this bill at second reading, but I would like my colleagues across the way to keep an open mind so that we can study the bill calmly and ensure that it does what it claims to do.

This bill is entitled An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Sex Offender Information Registration Act, to enact the High Risk Child Sex Offender Database Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. It is commonly referred to by the Conservatives as the tougher penalties for child predators act.

The Conservatives always try to make themselves look good by saying that they are against child sex offenders and depicting the members from the other parties as defending the offenders. I would say that everyone in the House is against child predators. It is often the government's approach to things that we disagree on.

This bill was introduced over a year ago with much fanfare. We soon realized that the cases mentioned in the many press conferences held by the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister were more than 10 years old. The government is using certain cases that are already quite old. This is yet another bill that will essentially increase the existing mandatory minimum penalties. In recent years, this government has amended a lot of laws by adding mandatory minimums.

Furthermore, Bill C-26 increases the maximum penalties for violations of prohibition orders, probation orders and peace bonds. It clarifies and codifies the rules regarding the imposition of consecutive and concurrent sentences. I should point out that there is currently a case before the Supreme Court regarding the lawfulness of consecutive sentences. In the short or medium term, a lot of the decisions made here could be looked at from a whole other perspective. That is why we need to examine this bill calmly in order to eventually achieve what the government claims to want to do, which is to reduce the number of crimes committed against children.

The bill will require courts to impose, in certain cases, consecutive sentences on offenders who commit sexual offences against children. It will ensure that a court that imposes a sentence must take into consideration evidence that the offence in question was committed while the offender was subject to a conditional sentence order or released on parole, statutory release or unescorted temporary absence.

What is more, the bill will amend the Canada Evidence Act to ensure that spouses of the accused are competent and compellable witnesses for the prosecution in child pornography cases. It also amends the Sex Offender Information Registration Act to increase the reporting obligations of sex offenders who travel outside Canada.

What is new about this bill is that it enacts the high risk child sex offender database act to establish a publicly accessible database that contains information—that a police service or other public authority has previously made accessible to the public—with respect to persons who are found guilty of sexual offences against children and who pose a high risk of committing crimes of a sexual nature. It also makes consequential amendments to other acts.

The NDP has always had a zero tolerance policy when it comes to sexual offences against children, despite what the Conservatives would have people believe. One of the tactics they used to colour people's opinions with omnibus Bill C-10 was to refuse to split the bill since we disagreed with some of its provisions. Because we planned to vote against that bill, the Conservatives said that we were voting against a bill that goes after sexual predators. They wanted to make it look like we were defending these individuals, which is completely ridiculous.

It seems that it did not work because the provisions of Bill C-10 to implement several mandatory minimum sentences do not seem to have had the desired effect. I would like to hear the minister tell us, in committee, how these new mandatory minimum sentences will succeed this time when they failed in the past.

That is one of the serious concerns that I have about this file. Many Conservative bills do nothing but increase mandatory minimum sentences while claiming to solve the problem of a particular type of crime, and this does not have the desired effect.

Every time we debate this we ask the Conservatives to back up their statements. Is it because the sentences are not tough enough? If there is an increase in crime, is it because of the sentence or because of anything related to the services? We are given very few clear answers to these questions.

Canada now has 34 million inhabitants. Let us take a look at some sexual crime statistics. In 2008, 241 people were accused of sexual interference; in 2009, there were 574; in 2010, there were 818; in 2011, there were 918; and in 2012, there were 916. The number keeps going up. Still, this is probably the least serious sexual crime in the Criminal Code compared to sexual assault on a child, for example.

For invitation to sexual touching, there were 56 cases in 2008, and that number rose to 206 in 2012. For sexual exploitation, there were 17 cases in 2008, and that went up to 49. It was fairly stable from 2010 to 2012. Of course, we do not yet have any statistics about making sexually explicit material available to a child because that new offence was created in 2012. Luring a child using a computer rose from 54 cases in 2008 to 127 in 2012.

We must not lose sight of the fact that all of these statistics are from years under the Conservative reign. During that time, we have, on many occasions, instituted or increased mandatory minimum sentences. According to these statistics, that approach has not deterred criminals.

Scientists have shown that mandatory minimum sentences do not deter criminals from committing crimes. I agree with criminologists that the likelihood of getting caught is what deters people from committing crimes, not the remote possibility of being sentenced to 10, 15 or 20 years. That does not deter criminals. It is clear that mandatory minimum sentences have had no effect in this area either.

Moreover, RCMP personnel strength keeps dropping. Commissioner Paulson mentioned recently in committee that he has had to shut down large squads that fight organized crime and assign the staff to other positions. That is completely ridiculous. The government is also not giving the RCMP any additional resources to establish this new data bank that it wants to create. It makes no sense. The RCMP will once again be forced to make cuts to other squads in order to get it done.

We have been raising the problem of updating criminal records for years now. We are not moving in the right direction. Let us give the RCMP the power to carry out its mission and stop moving in a direction that is doing nothing to deter criminals.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his excellent speech.

When we are talking about a bill such as this one, we have to talk about resources. We also have to talk about prevention. My colleague has put his finger on one of the major problems associated with this kind of government bill, which tightens the rules and imposes harsher penalties after the fact. Very limited resources are available, and there are no additional resources for our police forces to enforce the law or to put towards prevention, in order to help the social and community groups that are trying to raise awareness about the issue.

I would like to hear my colleague's thoughts on the importance of prevention and the lack of resources allocated by the government to address this issue.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising these important points.

Indeed, I was talking about this at the end of my speech, when I ran out of time, so I will come back to that now. Very few resources are being given to police officers. Minimum sentences are being increased, which means the prison population is increasing, but the budgets keep shrinking. Criminals are being sent to prison for longer periods. Services are being cut, including rehabilitation services that are necessary for ensuring that individuals do not reoffend when they are released.

These people are being sent into prisons that do not really have the resources to handle them. The RCMP is being given more responsibilities just as their budget is being cut. This makes no sense at all and it is not the first time this is happening. There have been a number of bills whereby the RCMP gets more responsibility and less money, or at least is not given the necessary budget to do its work.

In this case we are talking about creating a sex offender registry without giving more money to the RCMP. This government is not going in the right direction. It is also making cuts to rehabilitation services and to funding for the community resources that provide prevention services.

Having a balanced approach would be much more effective than relying on mandatory minimum sentences or stricter rules—in some cases, this is good—without giving correctional services or the RCMP the money they need. We are going nowhere with this.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is the whole administration of justice problem that is at issue here. In theory, punishment is a good thing, but in practice, the theory must translate into effective action.

Unfortunately, there was a terrible situation in Quebec recently. The police were able to bring down a criminal organization known as the Hells Angels. Everything was going well. All the members were arrested. Unfortunately, they forgot about the Conservative Party. Serious mistake. There were not enough judges to preside over the trials because of the Conservatives' systematic cuts. The time limits were exceeded. It took too long and the accused were released. Good going. That is marvellous. That is being tough on crime.

My question is quite simple: what is the use of having laws that sentence an individual to 150 years in prison if the government's actions prevent that person from ever going to court because there are not enough judges?

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to thank my colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin for that clarification and the information provided.

As I mentioned, there is a problem with the administration of justice. There is a dire shortage of judges and Crown prosecutors, which means things are not going anywhere. We are not headed in the right direction. Criminals are put in jail for longer periods and the budgets for all these people are being cut. That makes no sense. We are not going in the right direction in many areas. Furthermore, the provinces are not consulted. With Bill C-10, prisons are overflowing. The prison population has increased by 10%, but not the budget to deal with it. The government is sticking the provinces with the bill.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Is the House ready for the question?

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.