Debates of Feb. 23rd, 2017

Opposition Motion—Impact of Carbon Taxes

[David Lametti, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Innovation]

Madam Speaker, pricing pollution is the most efficient way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and reach our objective to protect the environment and create a clean growth economy. For this reason, it is a foundational pillar of Canada's action on climate change.

The Government of Canada has demonstrated national leadership and has worked in partnership with provinces and territories to establish a pan-Canadian approach to pricing pollution. It is a core element of the pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change released by Canada's first ministers on December 9, 2016. Under this framework, pricing pollution will apply to a broad set of emission sources throughout Canada, with increasing stringency over time in order to reduce GHG emissions at lowest cost to business and consumers, and to support innovation and clean growth.

As affirmed in the pan-Canadian framework, provinces and territories have flexibility to design their own pollution pricing policies adapted to their specific circumstances. Provinces and territories can put a direct price on carbon pollution, either through a direct price on pollution, like in British Columbia, or in implementing a hybrid system along the lines used in the Alberta model, or they can adopt a cap-and-trade system.

A federal pollution pricing backstop will apply in provinces and territories that do not have a pollution pricing system in place that meets that benchmark in 2018. Pollution pricing revenues will remain in the jurisdiction of origin, and each jurisdiction can use those revenues according to its needs. This gives provinces and territories the flexibility to decide how to reinvest pollution pricing revenue in their economies to support their workers and their families, and to minimize the impact on vulnerable groups.

Pollution pricing systems create an incentive for households and businesses to reduce their consumption of carbon intensive goods and fuels and to choose lower carbon alternatives. For example, households could choose to reduce fuel consumption by either using public transit more often or by replacing their vehicle with a more fuel efficient vehicle.

The cost of pollution pricing to households will vary by province and territory, depending in part on differences in energy and fuel consumption, and the electricity generation mix across provinces and territories. The cost to households will also depend on the design of pollution pricing policies introduced by each jurisdiction as well as the decisions they make as to how to use the revenues from pollution pricing.

An illustrative modelling scenario conducted by Environment and Climate Change Canada estimates that the average increase in the cost of energy to households across Canada would be $290 per year when the backstop pollution price reaches $50 per tonne in 2022. This captures the increase in the fuel price, approximately 12¢ per litre, and a modest reduction in the amount of energy used by the average family. Further analyses on the economic impacts of pollution pricing, including analyses of impacts on households and businesses, will become available as each province and territory clarifies the precise design of its pollution pricing system, including how it will utilize its revenues and as experience is gained.

It is important to recognize that the goods and services purchased by low-income people are usually not more carbon intensive than those purchased by higher-income earners. Accordingly, a direct price on pollution does not exhibit a greater burden on low-income families. However, because low-income earners spend a greater share of their income, they may be disproportionately impacted by any price on consumption unless specific measures are taken to compensate them.

There are a number of ways to protect low-income Canadians and vulnerable communities from price increases associated with pollution pricing. Revenue generated from pricing pollution can be used in a variety of ways. Under the pan-Canadian approach to pricing pollution, all revenues raised, as we have stated, will remain in the province or territory of origin.

This gives provinces and territories maximum flexibility to decide how to reinvest the revenue from pollution pricing in their own economies and work to support their workers and their families, and to minimize the impact on other vulnerable groups. Provinces and territories can choose to use pollution pricing revenues to compensate low-income and middle-income families for higher energy costs, for example, while still maintaining an incentive to reduce energy use and thereby helping to reduce emissions.

For example, British Columbia provides a tax credit for low-income families and has made its direct price on carbon revenue-neutral by reducing income taxes for British Columbians and for businesses operating in the province.

Alberta's pollution pricing system includes rebates for low- and middle-income households to offset the cost of the carbon levy charged on fuels used for transportation and heating. The Government of Alberta has estimated that six out of 10 households will receive a rebate to compensate them for the cost of the carbon levy. For example, the full rebate amount for a household with two adults and two children will be $540 annually in 2018, when Alberta's carbon levy reaches $30 per tonne of carbon dioxide. This will exceed Alberta's estimate of the total annual cost of the levy for a household with two adults and two children, which is $508 for 2018. Alberta has stated that it will provide the full rebate amount for couples and families earning less than $95,000 per year and for singles earning less than $47,500 per year.

The approach chosen by the Province of Ontario is to include, in its climate action plan, investments that low-income individuals and households stand to benefit from. Ontario plans to spend $380 million to $500 million on social housing retrofits, starting in 2017-18, to improve comfort for residents and to save money for social housing providers to use to make other improvements.

Ontario also plans to consider options for legislative and regulatory changes that would lessen the impact of pollution pricing on all tenants who rent their housing to make sure that pollution pricing is not passed on to tenants who are unable to make changes to reduce energy use.

In addition, Ontario plans to invest $45 million to $75 million in post-secondary training and innovation to ensure that the province has the capacity to build, maintain, and repair low-carbon buildings. This will include training for first nation and Métis peoples. Low-carbon jobs and training partnerships will be established among post-secondary institutions and indigenous communities.

The Government of Canada is committed to working with all provincial, territorial, and indigenous partners in ensuring that vulnerable groups, including indigenous peoples and low-income Canadians, are protected from any significant price increases resulting from pollution pricing.

Our climate is already changing, and Canadians are already feeling the effects. In the past, in some dream world, pollution was treated as an externality that people did not have to pay for and that the market did not have to worry about it. In fact, economists are telling us that it is time to internalize that so-called externality, make the price of pollution part of the market price of goods and services, and then let markets and governments take care of it. This is the approach taken by Patrick Brown, for example, who is the leader of the Conservative Party in Ontario.

The changes have already begun. Extreme weather, in the form of droughts and floods, is increasing in frequency. North of 60°, the average annual temperature has tripled, compared to the global average, since the middle of the last century. Snow, sea ice, glaciers, and permafrost are all in rapid decline.

We must address climate change now for the well-being of our people, our communities, and our economy and most of all, as a parent, for our children and grandchildren. We can no longer afford to not take action.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Madam Speaker, the truth of the matter is that Canada absorbs almost four times as much carbon as it emits. Because of the size of our country, our forests, our wetlands, and our farm land, we absorb more carbon than we can create.

At the same time, we are very aware, in my province of Saskatchewan, of how important it is that we be good stewards of what we have. When our provinces were approached by the government to take on more responsibility for taking care of our environment, they were given five options, before they were blindsided, again, by the government and told that they had option one or option two.

In Saskatchewan, our people respond to incentives, not punitive measures. We were ready to continue with what we are already doing with incentives for innovation and research and making things better. We already do some of the best farming and best industry in the country.

Coal in Estevan was visited by the minister, and she made very little mention of it. I am wondering if the member would like to respond to my question. Why are we willing to sell our seniors' care to a company from China, where some of the worst pollution exists, when we could be selling them our innovation—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I just want to remind members that there are only five minutes for questions and comments. If members could keep their questions much shorter, that would be great.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Madam Speaker, I realize full well that we lost 10 years on innovation and having an innovation policy under the previous government, because they had none, and we missed an example--

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order, please. I just want to remind members that when someone has the floor to have the respect to allow that person to answer. The member provided such respect while the question was being posed, so the same would be greatly appreciated.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Madam Speaker, this carbon pricing plan our government has worked out with the territories and provinces is coupled with an innovation agenda that is breathtaking. We are going to move ahead to make sure that we profit from the clean, green economy so that we can work with innovative people in Saskatchewan and other parts of the country to make all of this work.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Madam Speaker, I want to ask the member opposite about the Liberals' commitment to climate change. We heard so many good words coming out of Paris, but now the federal government has adopted the former Conservative government's weak targets for greenhouse gas reductions, and these targets will not get us anywhere near the greenhouse gas reductions we are seeking.

I am just wondering where and when we will hear a concrete plan from the federal government on how we will meet those targets. Right now we are putting it off so that our grandchildren will have to deal with this.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question and his dedication on environmental issues.

There are many steps this government has to take to reach our climate change goals. I share the concerns raised by the hon. member.

We have the provinces on board with this pan-Canadian strategy. We will keep moving forward on reducing gas emissions, and hopefully, at some point, we will reach a point where we are satisfied with both the lowering of emissions and the targets that are in place.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Madam Speaker, on the GST being charged on the carbon tax that is already being implemented, will the government stop taking revenues from the GST to make it revenue neutral?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Revenue neutrality, Madam Speaker, is something that will be determined by each province and territory. That is why they have the flexibility to create and craft the kind of program and policy they feel is best for their province or territory.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Foothills.

I want to turn this back into what we started with this morning, which is an opposition day motion that is not an indictment or an endorsement of the plan to price carbon, as the Liberals say, or as we like to say, to tax it, because a tax is a tax is a tax. One cannot hide it any other way.

This is a motion that deals with openness and transparency, the very foundation on which the Liberal government ran in the last election. The member for Carleton asked for information with respect to the pricing of the planned carbon tax the Liberals are looking to implement. There was some information that came back, but the information on the cost was, in fact, redacted. I chuckled in disbelief on the day the member for Carleton received that information, seeing that it was actually whited out.

The finance department and the government know what the cost is. They know what the impact is to Canadians, but they are simply not sharing that information. That flies in the face of their holding their hands over their hearts and speaking to Canadians during an election campaign about a Canada where better was possible, where they were going to be more transparent, more open, and more accountable.

For the fun of it, I actually went back to the Liberal platform. They said:

Together, we can restore a sense of trust in our democracy. Greater openness and transparency are fundamental to accomplishing this....

A Liberal government will implement all of these proposals, and go even further with new initiatives that expand Canadians' access to information.

They expand access to information only when it suits them, and it does not speak to the truth of this issue. The truth is that the carbon tax the Liberals are looking to implement across the country is going to cost Canadians.

In question period yesterday, I asked a question. It related to the Barrie chapter of the Canadian Association of Retired Persons. They had a seminar this weekend, and the basis of the seminar was heat or eat. That is how dire the situation has become for seniors in our country, particularly with respect to energy prices in Ontario. When seniors are celebrating their golden years of retirement after contributing so much to Canada and our economy, it is awfully disheartening when the prospect of a carbon tax is going to fall on them and they are going to have to pay even more to heat their homes, even more for energy, and more for everything else, quite frankly.

In my riding of Barrie—Innisfail, there is a seniors community called Sandycove Acres. It is a 3,600 strong seniors community. Oftentimes at night, one can drive through that community and see the lights turned off, because for many of those seniors in that community, the reality is that they are making a choice between heating and eating. I know that the member for York—Simcoe knows that area well. They are good people who have worked very hard their whole lives. There are many veterans as well who live in that community. There are many first responders. They are having extreme difficulty paying their high energy costs right now in Ontario, so to add a carbon tax on top of that is just unimaginable.

I said earlier that I do not want to make this an indictment or an endorsement of a carbon tax. When I was a city councillor, I did my part. I made decisions to invest to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Whether it was to spend $11 million on LED lights or to invest in LEED certified buildings, there were things we could do.

We understand, as Conservatives, that, as the Liberals often say, the economy and the environment go hand in hand. However, they should not contradict each other. There are many things we can do. While I was not part of the previous government, I know that a lot of things were done.

I look at some of the stories. Jim Fraser, who has a small bungalow in Collingwood, Ontario, recently opened his hydro bill. It was $700. Dave Purdon, of Muskoka Meats, got a hydro bill of $1,700. He had to slash his prices on his inventory by 50% to pay his hydro bill.

When we talk about adding a carbon tax on top of that, how are these small and medium-sized businesses going to function?

Here is another one involving a butcher shop owned by a friend of mine, Lawrence Vindum. Lawrence lives in the riding of Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte. He had to remove large freezers from his business because he could not afford his hydro bill anymore. He was quoted in the paper as saying he had chest pains when he opened up his bills. We can talk about the stress of that.

One thing we do know in the information that the member for Carleton received is that the proposed carbon tax as stated in the Ministry of Finance report will have a cascading effect on our economy.

Economist Trevor Tombe provides some estimates on the cost of carbon pricing in Canada and he did this in Maclean's magazine in October 2016. He said that the direct cost to Canadians annually will be roughly between $1,250 and $2,500. Those direct costs to homeowners include gasoline, home heating, and electricity. There are indirect costs as well to households that include natural gas increases, food production and distribution, public transportation, shelter costs, services, and clothing. He also said that further costs to household increases when revenues from carbon pricing are not channelled back to households. Some provincial governments just cannot help themselves.

We have heard the argument all day that it will be up to provincial governments to decide. When we have a situation like Ontario where it is billions of dollars in debt, any revenue that is generated is going toward paying or servicing that debt. Let us not fool ourselves here. It is not going to go back to residents, homeowners, or businesses.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation had to go to information that was provided to the UN to figure out just how much it would cost Canadians with respect to carbon taxes.

The member for Carleton said this morning that we are representation by population. We are the ones who represent our residents and if we cannot get the information from the government, how can we go back to our constituents, my residents of Barrie—Innisfil, residents of Foothills, residents of Saskatoon, and tell them how much this is going to cost if the government will not release that information?

I gave some examples of some of the businesses that are struggling in the current environment. They will have to absorb the impacts of the carbon tax. How do they absorb those impacts? They will pass them on to consumers. Already struggling seniors, already struggling middle-class families and those working hard to join it, will have to pay for the Liberal carbon tax. Again, we do not know what they are going to have to pay because the government will not release that information.

That is the basis of what today's debate is all about. The government should release the information. Why not release it? Why redact it? Why black it out? It is because the government is not happy with the information. That is the answer to the question. The Liberals know that Canadians will not be happy with the information.

With respect to the impact on businesses, I have a business in my riding called LEI Electronics Inc. It is run by Lionel Lalonde partnered with Mark Sachkiw. The company does some great things when it comes to creating carbon-neutral or zero-carbon products. It has an alkaline battery that is carbon neutral, which it sells around the world. I had these gentlemen at a round table and they also wrote me a letter dated February 23 in which they talk about companies that are carbon-neutral certified. Think of the ridiculousness of this. They are carbon-neutral certified and yet they will be subject to a Liberal carbon tax. These gentlemen are doing everything they can, every bit of investment that they make in their company goes toward creating carbon neutrality. They are going to have to pay for this.

Finally, the cost of Gerald Butts, Kathleen Wynne, Catherine McKenna, and Justin Trudeau green energy taxes will be about $1,000 to every senior at the age of 65. Seniors will have to make decisions every day to be healthy or to be warm, or to have a full tummy, or to visit their grandchildren who live far away.

I am receiving a tremendous amount of email correspondence about this carbon tax. I will say this. If I cannot answer the questions because I do not have the information, how will the Liberals answer those questions for their constituents?

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Before I go to questions and comments, I want to remind the member that he is not allowed to mention the names of sitting MPs in the House.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the member's speech, and that the Conservatives are trying to get information to fully cost what the effects are. However, what is not often talked about in our political discourse are the effects and the costs of doing nothing. I come from the coast of British Columbia, from Vancouver Island. With respect to Vancouver, Canada's third largest city, what would the costs be of rising sea levels to the millions of people who live on the Fraser River delta? What would the costs be to British Columbia for the increased ravages of forest fires? What would the costs be to the prairies when the glaciers that feed their waterways start melting? I wonder if the member could comment a bit more about the costs of doing nothing, and whether our discourse should be more concentrated on that rather than what we are trying to do to amend those facts?

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would first apologize for mentioning the names of members. It was an inadvertent mistake on my part.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

A rookie error.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

We can call it a rookie error, and I thank the hon. member for York—Simcoe for that.

Madam Speaker, nobody in this House will argue that we need to do our part. However, Canada emits 1.6% of the global greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, we need to have a global discussion and look to those countries that are the true carbon polluters in this world. Why are we not putting pressure on those countries? It is well-documented that over 50% of greenhouse gas emissions are emitted by four countries. That is over half. Canada is doing its part, and Canada will continue to do its part.

The issue here is transparency and accountability on the part of the government. It should release the information and let us know what the costs are to Canadians. At a minimum, let us start talking to our global partners to get them to also reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, “'Climate change is a fact. It is a threat. It is man-made', he told the party faithful. 'We have to do something about it, and that something includes putting a price on carbon.'” In the event that the hon. member does not know who said that, it was Patrick Brown, the leader of the Conservative Party in Ontario. Therefore, I want to know whether the member disagrees with his predecessor, that carbon should not be priced.

The second question I have for the member before he stands up is this. For the past 10 years, British Columbia has been the poster child for a carbon tax. It has also simultaneously had the most successful economy in the last 10 years. Does he see a correlation?

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Madam Speaker, having replaced Patrick Brown in his federal seat, I have had many conversations with Patrick, and he and I can agree to disagree on this issue. I know that the way the cap-and-trade system is implemented in Ontario, it is effectively a tax grab. Patrick's plan is to make this revenue neutral.

With respect to B.C., maybe the member should read the Fraser Institute report, which states that, in terms of the tax that has been collected in B.C, it has taken in tens of millions more than what it has given back. Therefore, I would respectfully submit to the hon. member that his information is wrong and that he needs to read the Fraser Institute report to find the truth.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Madam Speaker, a lot of what we have heard today is about the Liberal government's profession of the benefits of a carbon tax, but what we are really talking about is transparency, openness, and being forthright with Canadians.

We heard it earlier today, but one of the fundamental cornerstones of our democracy is no taxation without representation. However, another big part of that is no taxation without information. Canadians know that the federal Liberal carbon tax grab is going to hurt and we want the government to show how much it is going to hurt. That is what is being asked here today. The information is there as, apparently, it has done the analysis, but is unwilling to share it.

We have been hit with this roadblock over and over again over the last six or eight months. For example, in the natural resources committee, my colleague from Chilliwack—Hope put forward a motion asking the Liberal government to move forward with an emergency study and analysis of the impact the carbon tax will have on the oil and gas sector. The Liberal members of the committee voted against that motion. Again, what this comes down to is if the carbon tax is going to be such a job-creation revelation and wonderful benefit to Canada, why are the Liberals being so coy with that data that would back that up? I would say that if this is going to be of such benefit and is really what Canadians want, then show me, prove it to me. However, throughout this entire process and why we brought this motion forward today, they are unwilling and unable to do that.

I want to tell members about something that really surprised me, which is that Canadians are really starting to realize that they are going to pay the carbon tax. My colleagues across the floor have talked about this being revenue neutral and that it will not impact anyone. That is absolutely not the case. First, they are shoving this off on the provinces to make those decisions, so there is no guarantee on the federal side that it will ensure this is revenue neutral. It has already been proven in B.C., Alberta, and Ontario that this is not revenue neutral. This is impacting the most vulnerable.

In January, when I was home during the constituency break, I joined some friends of mine and had the opportunity to play hockey. I walked into the Cardel arena in the south end of the city and there was a huge sign that said it was no longer turning on the heaters in the arena due to the carbon tax. My wife and kids came to watch hockey and had to wear their toques and mitts. It is not the worst experience of their lives, but it just goes to show the impact that this trickling down is going to have.

We heard in another Liberal colleague's speech today that although rec centres in Ontario are having a very difficult time making ends meet, the government has provided this Canada child benefit. Sure it has, but that will now be eaten up by the carbon tax because the child fitness and arts tax credits have been taken away. Any other money that rec centres may possibly have will now go to higher registration fees, utility fees, and program costs, because they will be passing those costs on to Canadians. To say this is revenue neutral in any way, shape, or form is just not the case. This is going to impact Canadians in every aspect of their lives.

Let me go back to what we are talking about here today. We know the Liberal government has conducted some analysis and my colleague from Carleton has asked for two Finance Canada documents, entitled, “Impact of a carbon price on households' consumption costs across the income distribution” and “Estimating economic impacts from various mitigation options for greenhouse gas emissions”. These were released under the Access to Information Act, but key information in those tables was redacted, blacked out. I find that to be incredibly unfair to Canadians.

We can call it a price on pollution, mechanisms, or a price on carbon, but it is a tax. This is a tax grab by the Liberals. I wish they would be very clear on it, but they will not be clear on what they are calling it or the impacts it is going to have on Canadians.

If the Liberals were confident that this was not going to have a detrimental impact on Canadians, especially rural and low-income Canadians, they would release the information in those data tables. However, they will not do it, despite the fact that this breaks it down to every quintile and despite the impact it will have on every Canadian, the very poor, middle class, wealthy, and very wealthy.

This is nothing but a wealth transfer from those who have the very least to those who have the ability to lobby the federal and provincial governments to ensure they get those rebates, whether for their Liberal friends or whatnot. This will not be beneficial to Canadians, and that is very clear.

We also heard some of my Liberal colleagues say today that countries and jurisdictions around the world were embracing a carbon tax. I would like to point out one very interesting fact the Liberals left out.

The carbon tax has not generated jobs. Our jobs report came out from Statistics Canada in Alberta for December. One hundred thousand Albertans are still out of work. This is despite the fact that oil prices have started to tick back up over that $50 a barrel, which shows me that the job losses in Alberta are not necessarily tied to commodity prices. Certainly that is part of it, but that is not all of it. Ninety-eight thousand Albertans are out of work. This is despite Alberta bringing in a carbon tax that is supposed to give us all this social licence.

The one province that has shown some strength to say that it will not go down this road is Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan's unemployment rate has decreased by 3.6%. The one province that does not have a carbon tax has seen its unemployment rates go down. The reason for that is it is still competitive. What we see in Alberta right now, with 100,000 Albertans out of work, is that the carbon tax is forcing investment elsewhere. Investors are taking their dollars to Saskatchewan, to the United States, and to other jurisdictions where they do not have these obstacles to go through, where there is some certainty on their investment, their return on that investment, and their ability to be successful.

Alberta right now, with a $30 a tonne carbon tax and now a federal carbon tax being put on top of that and GST being charged on that carbon tax, is showing investors that it is not a good place to do business. That is going to be the same for Canada.

Again, we talked about jurisdictions that embraced a carbon tax. The United States, Australia, and France have abandoned plans of a carbon tax. The United States, our biggest competitor, is not going down this path. That is going to make our industries, energy, mining, forestry, and agriculture, globally uncompetitive. We have seen more than $50 billion of investment leave Alberta already. I do not have numbers on what that would be across Canada. However, once the federal carbon tax comes into play next year, we will see additional investment dollars go somewhere else. They are going to go where they have the least obstacles and they are going to be taking those dollars and the jobs that go with them, likely south to the United States where there is a much friendlier regime of investment in the energy sector, manufacturing, and perhaps even agriculture. We are going to see that trickle-down effect.

What this comes down to is transparency. We are asking the Liberal government to be honest with Canadians. They want to know what the impact of the carbon tax will be. Will it be something Canadians can be successful with, or will it be something that will force them to continue to close businesses and to take their kids out of sports and recreational programs? It took the taxpayers federation to do the homework for the Liberal government. It said that it would cost an average family of four more than $4,000 a year. That is absolutely unacceptable.

It comes down to no taxation without representation, but also no taxation without information. This is going to hurt. We want to know how much it is going to hurt.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would not question my hon. colleague's ability as a goaltender. He is a great goaltender. However, with respect to Alberta, has the member seen the report in which the Conference Board of Canada projects Alberta will lead the way in 2017 in terms of real GDP growth? Has he seen the report of 2.8% of real GDP growth?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his nice comments. He was not the one who sprayed me, so I appreciate that.

We are starting to see some things turn around in Alberta, but I would invite him to come to Alberta. I had a jobs task force and I had four round tables in my constituency this fall. Overwhelmingly the number one recommendation from people was that the federal government not to impose the carbon tax. These are engineers, physicists, geologists who have not worked for more than 18 months and they do not see a light at the end of the tunnel.

I have lived in Alberta for most of my life and this is the one time that I can honestly say I have never felt this kind of frustration, despair, inability to see a future for people in Alberta. We are seeing so many go back to Saskatchewan. Studies may say that, but that just is not the reality right now.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Madam Speaker, I recognize the member for Foothills has roots in Saskatchewan. In fact, I have some insurance with his brother's firm. However, I think he has been away from the province for far too long because he seems to be out of date on the job market situation.

The member for Foothills suggested that everything is great in Saskatchewan without a carbon tax. If we look at the last labour force survey, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick were the only two provinces in which employment declined during the first month of this year. If we look over the past year, Saskatchewan was one of only three provinces in which employment declined.

Clearly the problem is the drop in commodity prices and clearly Saskatchewan is not having some sort of employment boom as a result of low carbon tax. Would the member for Foothills acknowledge these facts as reported by Statistics Canada?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for supporting my family's business. I do not get anything in that.

Again, things are much better in Saskatchewan compared to Alberta. Its unemployment numbers have gone down, where Alberta is reaching double digits in several jurisdictions. Downtown Calgary has a vacancy rate of more than 30%.

The numbers that Statistics Canada released earlier this year for Alberta are the worst employment numbers in Alberta since it started keeping statistics. We just have to compare one to the other. We have two provinces with very similar economies. The one that has a carbon tax is struggling and the one that does not have a carbon tax is holding its own.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, this is not a question, but very quickly to correct some factual errors.

The member for Yorkton—Melville said that forests absorbed more carbon than we emitted. That reversed a couple of decades ago. Forests now actually emit more carbon than they absorb.

The member for Barrie—Innisfil said that the Fraser Institute report was reliable. The ministry for finance for British Columbia has completely debunked that bogus report.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for her soapbox, I guess. However, the facts have shown that when it comes to a carbon tax being revenue neutral, it is just not the case in B.C., Alberta, and Ontario, the three prominent provinces that have a carbon tax. It is not revenue neutral. Whether it is on rebates or not, the costs trickle down to groceries, recreation, user fees. Those companies and businesses have to bring the carbon tax they pay down to the consumer.