House of Commons Hansard #337 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was segregation.
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, every member of the House can be assured that this government follows the law meticulously.
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Mr. Speaker, the member should know that the Prime Minister is the first prime minister to have broken the law with respect to certain regulations.
This is serious. Vice-Admiral Mark Norman served Canada with unwavering commitment. Now he has been charged and is going to trial. All Canadians have a right to a fair defence. This requires access to all evidence. The Prime Minister has evidence pertaining to this case.
Does he want the vice-admiral to have a fair trial, yes or no?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, we want every trial in Canada to be a fair trial and that is assured by the very system we have, where the prosecution is in the hands of the independent Public Prosecution Service of Canada, which is not directed by the government, and the defence is obviously in the hands of very capable defence counsel. They have the law before them. They have an independent court procedure before them.
Canadians can be assured that justice will be done and it will be seen to be done.
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Mr. Speaker, years ago, a Canadian prime minister acted with the dignity befitting his position, and the minister knows him quite well. In 2004, the Right Hon. Paul Martin, a Liberal prime minister, released evidence connected to the sponsorship scandal. Why did he do this? He did it because it was in the best interests of Canada and Canadians.
Will the Prime Minister rise in the House to clearly state that he will act with the dignity befitting his position and release the evidence pertaining to the trial of a Canadian vice-admiral?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, once again the opposition is inviting a commentary upon a judicial proceeding which is outstanding. That kind of commentary on the floor of the House of Commons is not permitted.
It is obviously within the purview of the official opposition to try to politicize this process if it wishes, but the fact of the matter is that the rules of the House of Commons, as expressed in the House of Commons Compendium of Procedure, urges all members to guard against that by not violating the sub judice principle.
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Mr. Speaker, an estimated 500,000 Canadians have a criminal record for simple possession of cannabis, which is now a perfectly legal substance. The Prime Minister acknowledged yesterday that a disproportionate number of marginalized people lived with the stigma of a criminal record, and pledged that those records would “not follow them for the rest of their lives”. However, they will. A pardon is like a band-aid covering a wound; it does not make it disappear.
When will the government finally understand that the best solution, the only solution, is expungement?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, we are obviously deeply concerned about the disproportionate impacts of Canada's old cannabis laws. That is why we have repealed them and we have replaced them with a new legal regime and strict regulations to better keep cannabis away from our kids and illegal profits away from organized crime.
We are also advancing a new and far more effective pardon system for simple possession, with no waiting period before eligibility and no fee for the expressed purpose of getting rid of the stigma.
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Mr. Speaker, it does not do the job.
The Liberals are making things up as they go.
Yesterday, the government had nothing prepared, but it still called in the media for a series of press conferences to announce some possible future legislation. In Canada, 500,000 people, including a disproportionate number of racialized and indigenous people, have a criminal record for simple possession of 30 grams or less of cannabis.
What does the government have to say to the tens of thousands of Canadians who are wondering why it does not want to expunge their criminal records, which, in our opinion, is the easiest and only option?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, we share the concern about disproportionate impacts. That is why we are advancing a no wait, no fee pardon system to remove the stigma of those impacts.
The expungement argument the hon. gentleman makes by contrast, expungement has been used exclusively and only to deal with those cases where the law itself was inherently discriminatory and a fundamental violation of human rights, as for example when the Criminal Code attacked people simply for being gay.
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, by all accounts, it seems that Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed at the behest of Saudi Arabia at its consulate in Istanbul. The details being reported in Turkish newspapers are appallingly grisly.
We hope there will be a UN investigation into this in order to identify those who are really responsible for this atrocity.
When those responsible are identified, will the government be prepared to enforce the Magnitsky law?
Chrystia Freeland LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the question.
As we told our G7 partners on Tuesday, we are very concerned about the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi. As we told our partners in the G7, of which Canada currently holds the presidency, all those responsible for this situation must be held to account. It is very important. We support the calls for a thorough and transparent investigation into these serious allegations.
Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, the reported murder of Jamal Khashoggi is the latest in a series of horrible acts by Saudi Arabia. The war in Yemen is bringing famine to millions and is rife with war crimes. Attacks on journalism, democracy and basic human rights should trigger consequences, but the Minister of Foreign Affairs this morning said that honouring Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia was more important than honouring human rights.
Does the minister really think that is what Canadians want?
Chrystia Freeland LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Speaker, of course I do not think that is what Canadians want and that is why I said no such thing. Canada's position on human rights in general, very much including Saudi Arabia, is clear and firm. We took a clear and firm position in August, and I think that is something that Canadians can be proud of.
When it comes to the case of Jamal Khashoggi, we led a G7 foreign ministers' statement, which came out on Tuesday, saying that those responsible must be held to account.
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney General.
In her mandate letter, the Prime Minister asked her to “ensure that the rights of Canadians are protected”. One of the core rights of Canadians is the right to make full answer and defence in a criminal proceeding through the disclosure of evidence to the accused. The Liberals are denying Admiral Mark Norman his due process rights, as articulated in the charter and affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada.
Will the minister, as our top justice official, commit her government to living up to the charter and release all evidence?
Jody Wilson-Raybould LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, I have to say this prosecution is being handled by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, which operates independently from my office. As this matter is currently before the court, it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment further.
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am not asking the minister to comment on the details of the case. I am not asking the minister to comment on the contents of the document. It is shocking that our top justice official will not commit to just releasing the documents. All we are asking is for an affirmation from Canada's top justice official that she will ensure that Admiral Mark Norman's charter rights to be able to defend himself are respected by their releasing the documents, not what is in them.
Will she release the documents, or what is she hiding?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, let me quote: “Members are expected to refrain from discussing matters before the courts, or under judicial consideration, in order to protect those involved in a court action or judicial inquiry against any undue influence through the discussion of the case. This practice is referred to as the sub judice convention and it applies to debate, statements and Question Period.” Those are the words of the hon. Peter Van Loan, May 11, 2015.
JusticeOral Questions
Richard Martel Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Mr. Speaker, Vice-Admiral Norman cannot defend himself since the Prime Minister refuses to give him access to evidence for his defence. This is amateur theatre hour.
In Canada, justice is not a one-way street. Every Canadian has rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and Mr. Norman has the right to a fair trial.
Can the Prime Minister guarantee that Vice-Admiral Norman will be able to defend himself and that he will release all the necessary evidence to the defence?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, the prosecution in this case is handled completely independently by the Public Prosecution Service. The defence is obviously in very capable hands of learned counsel who will, no doubt, pursue the appropriate laws and rules of court.
I would add this: “It is deemed improper for a Member, in posing a question, or a Minister in responding to a question, to comment on any matter that is sub judice.” Those again are the words of the hon. Peter Peter van Loan, May 11, 2015.
JusticeOral Questions
Richard Martel Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Mr. Speaker, it has become a habit for the Liberal government to govern not for all Canadians, but for Liberal cronies and certain interest groups.
If sunny ways, as they liked to say, mean a cabinet that obstructs the courts in order to hide the real sacrificial lamb in this story, then the House of Commons has to hold cabinet to account.
What is the government hiding?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, the rules of the House and the laws of Canada need to be applied with complete impartiality and to the appropriate conclusions that are determined not by politics, but by an independent judicial process.
The Public Prosecution Service is in charge of the prosecution. Eminent legal counsel is in charge of the defence. They undoubtedly will make sure that justice is done.
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Mr. Speaker, one of the fundamental tenets of democracy and a fair justice system is access to the truth. The Prime Minister and his cabinet are refusing to release evidence to Vice-Admiral Norman's defence team. As a result, the House must act and hold cabinet and the Prime Minister to account for this cover-up.
The Prime Minister claims he respects the court. If he does, why will he not release the evidence?
Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Speaker, there are judicial procedures quite independent of the House that deal with the matters that are referred to in that question.
The point is, in the rules of the House and in the conventions of the House, members are expected not to ask questions and ministers are expected not to give answers that comment directly or indirectly on an outstanding legal procedure, and we will honour that convention.
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely ridiculous because the Prime Minister publicly stated that Vice-Admiral Norman would likely be charged. How did he come to that conclusion? It is as if he knew something before the RCMP investigation was complete.
The Prime Minister is playing a very dangerous game with Vice-Admiral Norman's life and that is precisely why it is important for the vice-admiral's defence team to see the evidence the Prime Minister is covering up.
What is the Prime Minister hiding and who is he protecting?
Jody Wilson-Raybould LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, the prosecution of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman is being handled by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, a body that acts independently of my role. As this matter is currently before the court, as the member opposite should know, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further.