Debates of Oct. 2nd, 2018

Opposition Motion—Justice

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Yes, she was.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. There is no going back and forth. All comments, questions and speeches are to be done through the Chair. If anybody has questions or comments, they are to address them at the appropriate time, upon being recognized.

Resuming debate, the hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, our corrections officials, our civil servants, back in 2014, made the transfer to a medium-security facility, which ultimately allowed for anyone attending those facilities to go to a healing lodge. That is the reality.

Stephen Harper as prime minister knew that. Every Conservative member of Parliament knew that. There was not one peep, not one word. Based on what I have heard from the Conservative Party in the last few days, I would have thought that every one of them in that Conservative caucus would have been jumping up and down, yelling and screaming, preaching about how it is that could have possibly happened, because now the door was opened for a murderer of a child to go to a healing lodge. However, there was not one peep.

Now, a couple of years later, just as the corrections staff and civil servants had made recommendations back then to transfer her to a medium-security facility, they came up with another transfer of sorts. They used what they are entitled to use, because that is what medium-security prisons are allowed to do, they can take individuals and transfer them to the healing lodges. We all know that.

A decision was made here, and there has been a great deal of resistance to it. What did the Minister of Public Safety do? He ordered a complete review that will take us all the way back to when the individual was transferred from maximum-security to medium-security facilities. I would suggest that the Minister of Public Safety has done a better service to Canadians than Stephen Harper and the former Conservative government did back in 2014.

The minister and this government understand what has taken place. The question then becomes, why do we have Conservative after Conservative jumping up and down, trying to give a false impression of the events? All the Conservatives have is politically charged rhetoric. They are trying to score cheap political points. That is what this issue boils down to for the Conservative Party.

A thorough review is taking place. This government has initiated that review. This government will do what is in the best interests of Canadians, after receiving the reports. We are listening to what Canadians have to say about the issue. We are listening to the corrections staff have to say about what led to these decisions.

One of the things we have demonstrated, time and time again, whether it is on this issue or others, is that we obviously have more confidence in our civil service. We consistently see Conservatives taking shots at our civil service. We recognize the valuable contributions that all civil servants make to our society.

We recognize that it is not for the politicians to send someone to jail per se. We are not the ones who say that this person or that person should be investigated, get the RCMP to go in and investigate, and then have them thrown into jail because we as a political party that happens to be in government or in opposition say so. It should not be politicians who make that determination. We operate under the rule of law. I believe that is what the constituents I represent would want me to say.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Speaker, I hope that everyone back in Winnipeg is watching how the member for Winnipeg Centre and the member for Winnipeg North have shown no compassion for the Stafford family. They have shown absolutely no common sense in trying to deal with the situation and reversing this bad decision. We have witnessed that they will fight for the convict, but not fight for the victim.

I do not know if the member realizes that under the Victims Bill of Rights, Corrections Canada failed under the law to provide information. Every victim and their family has the right to information on what is happening with the convicted. The family was not informed eight or nine months ago when Terri-Lynne McClintic was transferred to the healing lodge out of a medium-security facility. She deserves to be behind bars.

This is an opportunity for the member to do the right thing, to fight for the family rather than fight for his bureaucrats, to fight against a bad decision that was made by Corrections Canada. Why does he not follow the lead? When the Minister of Agriculture was the solicitor general he actually stopped a transfer of a notorious killer. Why does the Minister of Public Safety today not follow that example?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, the member just said that Liberals have not shown compassion. If he had listened to what I said, the compassion that Liberals have demonstrated, whether it has been the Prime Minister, the Minister of Public Safety, myself or others, is genuine compassion.

There is not one member of the House who does not recognize just how hideous a crime was committed and who is not absolutely disgusted by it. I have indicated on a couple of occasions how our hearts and our compassion go to the family of Tori. I would suggest that is genuine compassion compared to what we have seen from the Conservatives, who hope to get some political gain by their behaviour.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would like to share a quote from the hon. Irwin Cotler. At the time, he was the member for Mount Royal, previous minister of justice and attorney general of Canada. He was responding to the current minister's speech at second reading of Bill C-32, the Victims Bill of Rights. He said:

For victims and their families, navigating the path of justice...and parole, can be a very difficult ordeal, sometimes frightening and often costly. Victims may have experienced significant emotional or physical trauma as well as material loss, and most painfully, the loss of loved ones.

As such, it is critical that our justice system and related departments and agencies treat victims with respect and sensitivity, appreciate their concerns, and minimize their burden.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Does the member have a question?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Yes, Madam Speaker. To that end, the bill before us appears to be, in most respects, one more step in the right direction.

How does the government justify its treatment of the Stafford family in light of these remarks by the hon. Irwin Cotler?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I would recommend to my friend across the way that he read some of the debate that we had yesterday inside this beautiful chamber. We talked about enshrining the rights of victims in our military justice system to resemble the civil process. That means that our government has legislation enshrining rights of victims. Irwin Cotler was right back then, just like we as an opposition party were right back then, as we were right yesterday and as we continue to recognize the importance of victims. All the member has to do is read the legislation that we tabled yesterday and he will see it is an enshrinement of victims' rights in law.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am a little bit appalled by the member across.

April 8, 2009, was the first day eight-year-old Tori Stafford was allowed to walk home by herself from her elementary school in Woodstock, Ontario. She never made it home. Instead, she was lured into a car with the promise of seeing a puppy. Needless to say, there was no puppy. Instead, Tori was brutally raped and murdered. One of her murderers pleaded guilty to first degree murder in 2010, making her eligible for parole after 25 years.

In the eight years since her conviction, Tori's murderer has earned no rewards for good behaviour. However, in 2012, she pleaded guilty to assaulting a fellow inmate. She bragged about stomping on the face of a fellow inmate, bragging to her friends that she had committed hateful acts in prison. This is a person who needs to be in a secure prison.

My colleagues can imagine the shock in my riding when it was announced that Tori Stafford's murderer had been transferred from a high-security prison to a healing lodge for aboriginal women in Saskatchewan. That is not the Conservative Party cranking up anything. It is the community that is upset.

This is not a minimum security risk. This is a convicted killer who has been found guilty of horrific crimes, the types of things all parents are fearful of when they let their child walk home from school alone for the very first time.

The focal point of the healing lodge is a spiritual lodge where teaching, ceremonies and workshops with elders take place. This is where women learn how to live independently by cooking, doing laundry, cleaning and doing outdoor maintenance chores. Each unit has a bedroom, a bathroom, a kitchenette with an eating area and a living room. A constituent of mine pointed out that this sounds nicer than some apartments Canadians are working hard to be able to afford on their own, including his.

We, as elected representatives, have an obligation and a responsibility to make it right when officials get it wrong. The decision to move Tori's killer from behind bars to a healing lodge, with no fence and with children living inside, is disgraceful.

I have heard from countless constituents through email, phone calls and social media how disappointed they are in this decision. One writes, “I implore you to take quick action as a representative of this area to bring this issue forward for resolution, not only for the sake of the family involved but the families that have felt the impact of this heinous crime.”

Another writes, “I feel so sick about this injustice about McClintic going to a medium security lodge. This is so wrong and Tori has been robbed of the idea of any justice. I'm saddened that this woman has been rewarded.”

Madam Speaker, I am asking to split my time with the member for Saskatoon—Grasswood.

Another constituent demanded, “Please do something to get McClintic back in jail and not in a healing lodge. That is absolutely ridiculous!” It goes on, “There's no way she should be anywhere but locked away for life and I feel quite sure you feel the same, especially considering it happened right here in our own community!”

I think one constituent summarized it best. She wrote that she heard the Prime Minister get up in the House of Commons to explain that it was the previous Conservative government that was responsible for initially moving McClintic to a medium security prison. She said that this was an empty excuse, because the Liberal government is now in charge, with a majority, and can get things done and reverse this decision.

My constituents are speaking loud and clear, and they are right to. Canadians are appalled by what has happened. The government needs to exercise its moral, legal and political authority to reverse this decision. Canadians are outraged, and they know that parliamentarians, as their elected representatives, have the power to act.

My constituents are demanding that I seek justice for Tori and take action to demand that the government return her killer to a high-security prison. Dangerous child killers belong behind bars. Canadians know that it is unacceptable to leave a child killer in a fenceless facility with other children.

I rise in the House today to ask that the Liberal government reverse the decision that was made to move Tori Stafford's murderer to a healing lodge and to return her to a high-security prison.

Tori's father has made a plea, which has circulated thousands of times on social media, asking the Prime Minister to reverse this decision. It is important for his plea to be on record and for the House to hear what he has to say. He writes:

My name is Rodney Stafford, father of kidnapped, raped & murdered 8 year old Victoria Elizabeth Marie Stafford.

I plead to you as a father & a proud Canadian citizen who, even after this traumatic experience, tries to live a normal tax paying life.

I really have to question our Federal Government as to why convicted child murderers, such as Terri Lynne McClintic, deserve more rights than their victims & law abiding Canadians? I may not have grown up living a perfect life, but I grew up to learn that I love the country I live in and I know right from wrong! It's a safe and beautiful country. Now I see so many hearts breaking because people are no longer feeling safety & reassurance within our laws.

This is an ever changing world that hosts a whole new world of manipulative monsters that our nation needs to protect its citizens from! Terri Lynne McClintic is a dangerous predator, who has repeatedly engaged in violent altercations both within society & while incarcerated, boasting of not being able to do more damage!

I would like to ask you , with no ill will, one question though if I may, “From father to Father...Could you kneel before your child's headstone, knowing they spent the last 3 hrs of their life begging & pleading for Mommy or Daddy to come save them, Alone [and] Scared? Can you sleep soundly knowing there is more injustice unfolding before you?”

Is this enough to remember that not all issues are political? Some are moral!

God bless & I pray for you to do the right thing, which is to ensure this injustice is reversed and a child killer is returned to prison to finish her sentence behind bars!

Those are pretty strong words from Mr. Stafford, who was in my office again today. We hear from Canadians all the time about horrendous situations such as this, but in this case, it hits very close to home.

This weekend, I spoke to my friend, the chief of police in Woodstock, and he is just appalled, as the rest of us are, and he felt the need to speak out. As we know, police chiefs do not typically speak out about matters in their communities. In this case, Chief Bill Renton felt that need and has certainly spoken out and made it very clear.

This woman is not a shoplifter. She is not a car thief. She is a convicted, brutal murderer who lured this young girl to a very violent death. She played an extremely active part. She is the one responsible. She should be behind bars, and the healing lodge certainly is not the place for her. Healing lodges have a purpose, but it is not for people like her. There must be literally thousands of women out there in prisons who could utilize a healing lodge, but not this particular killer.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Families]

Madam Speaker, what happened to Tori Stafford, and the pain and suffering her family have gone through, is unimaginable and breaks the heart of any soul in this country. The debate here today does not diminish the pain nor the loss. It is profound. We all get that. We all know that her killer is in custody and is not walking free.

My question for the Conservatives opposite is very simple. Where was the concern for victims when the reports of 1,500 missing and murdered indigenous women became public? Talk to the parents and the family of Tina Fontaine. Where was the concern for that victim?

Children are victimized in this country far too often. It is painful for every family who loses one. However, there seems to be a hierarchy of concern here. There were 1500 murdered and missing indigenous women, and we could not get police to investigate those cases, let alone convict someone.

The indigenous community in North Bay had to dredge the river to find its missing children, and the party opposite, during the height of that crisis, said that it was committing “sociology” to try to solve that problem. Where was the concern for all the child victims in this country? Why are the Conservatives so selective?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Madam Speaker, that is just ridiculous. It is not what we are talking about here. If he had those issues back then, why did he not bring them up? I am talking about the murder of Tori Stafford. Every day we have other issues, but we did not deal with them today. That is not on the agenda. Trying to change the channel on this particular issue is appalling.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would echo what we have heard today, which is that the tragic events that unfolded in this particular crime were horrific, and our thoughts are obviously with the family.

My question is about the individual who has been moved to a new facility. We know that this is the second time such a move has occurred. Ms. McClintic was moved in 2014. Is the member aware of what led to that move happening in 2014? Why did the Conservative government allow this individual to be moved from a maximum security facility to a medium security facility in 2014?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Madam Speaker, first, the government of the day in 2014 and the current government, to its own credit, were not made aware of those changes. We only became aware of this change when Tori Stafford's father put on his Facebook page that she had been moved to the healing lodge.

The Conservative government, in 2014, was not part of that transfer. Perhaps if it had known, maybe we would have been. Maybe we would not have been. However, even then, when she was moved to that facility in 2014, it had bars. It had a razor wire fence around it. It was a secure facility, and there were no children there. That is our concern. In 2012, she was convicted of a brutal assault on another inmate. Maybe she should not have been moved in 2014, but the government of the day was not made aware of it.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, this happened in the member's constituency. This terrible, atrocious crime happened in his constituency, and I felt his heart cry as he gave his speech.

The previous question was why the Conservative government did not prevent her from going to a medium security facility that had bars, a prison cell and all of those things. The member rightfully answered that Conservatives were not aware of it at the time, which the hon. member finds very hard to believe. He is laughing. The Liberals must then believe that the current public safety minister was aware the moment she was transferred to a healing lodge, because they come from that perspective. I would ask the member for a point of clarification on that, please.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I regret to interrupt the proceedings, but I want to point out for clarification that he said that I was laughing in response to that and—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

A point of clarification is not a point of order. Therefore, the member for Oxford will have a chance to respond.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Madam Speaker, with all due respect to all members, the government of the day is not made aware of moves within prison facilities for a variety reasons, the least of which is that probably hundreds take place every day. A government would not have that knowledge. Conservatives did not have that knowledge. I give the current minister—

[An hon. member]

The benefit of the doubt.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind that he did not know about this. I do not think he would have talked about “bad practices” by this person had he been aware of the whole circumstance. I think he answered with something that probably today he wished he had not. That is my guess. The government is not aware of it when it happens. It is only when it blows up, and in this case, the father is very indignant about it.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Madam Speaker, normally I would say I am honoured to stand and comment on a matter at hand, but that is not the case here today.

When this story was making headlines, not only in this country but all over the world, I was still in the media. It never occurred to me that one day I would have to tell the government of the day that it is making a grave mistake by allowing a child murderer to serve her sentence in a healing lodge. However, now it is my duty to do so on behalf of the constituents of Saskatoon—Grasswood.

Canadians are rightly disgusted and outraged that a child murderer has been moved from a prison to a healing lodge with no bars and no fences, and where there are actually children. I have heard from many constituents of Saskatoon—Grasswood who have contacted me to implore me to advocate for innocent, law-abiding Canadians and demand that this child killer be put back behind bars.

I am going to quote some of the wisdom of my constituents. I have received many phone calls and emails on this matter in my office in Saskatoon. I am going to share a number of them.

Here is one: “I don't make a practice of writing my member of Parliament, but in this case I must let my feelings be known. I know I am far from the only one. I am totally sickened by the transfer of a child killer to a native healing lodge. I cannot imagine what this family is going through and how this case will remain in the spotlight for years. This woman...should be in that prison for 25 years. Please do not let this slide into oblivion.”

Dean Hartley wrote, “This is not about process; this is about the decision and outcomes. Please continue to apply pressure to the Liberal government to reverse the decision.”

Another of my constituents wrote, “Put Terri-Lynne McClintic back behind bars. She is a callous and sick child killer.”

I heard from Nasha Spence, who wrote a very impassioned letter explaining her disbelief at the government's decision. This is just part of what she shared with me, and I wish to share it with the rest of the country and the House here today.

Nasha said, “I was alarmed to read in the press that convicted murderer Terri-Lynne McClintic was transferred to a healing lodge in Maple Creek, Saskatchewan. I am a mother of two girls approximately the same age as Tori Stafford when she was abducted, raped and murdered. As a parent I empathize with Tori's experience and the experience of her parents since that horrible day.”

She asked, “Are we to understand that an individual who has actively participated in the rape and murder of a child is now in a facility with no fences to prevent her from leaving? Terri-Lynne McClintic belongs in prison. Maximum security prison. With no ability to leave and harm other children. Further, I am concerned that a child murderer has been sent to a Saskatchewan community where she is free to roam.”

She pointed out, “Canadian families have the right to know the safety of our children is a top priority for our country's leaders. We have the right to live in a safe and just country. We also have the right to know that if a fellow citizen murders and sexually assaults a child in our community, that the felon will be held accountable. None of these rights have been observed in sending Terri-Lynne McClintic to a healing lodge in place of keeping her imprisoned for the full duration of her sentence. The punishment most certainly does not match the crime.”

She went on to say, “Words are grossly inadequate to communicate the anger and frustration I feel about this decision. I feel like the justice system has done us all a grave disservice. I am interested to know what I can do as a concerned citizen, and what may be possible to overturn this decision. To be clear, writing a letter to the federal government is not appropriate advice at this point. Nothing short of action will be sufficient.”

Nasha urged us “to understand that every child matters and needs our collective intervention when others are present that may do them harm.”

Those are very impactful words, and I would like to answer Nasha's question and tell her that writing a letter can be a powerful tool. Our collective intervention, as she refers to it, is an even greater tool.

Another thoughtful and compassionate constituent of mine said, “I would really like to just reach out and hopefully let you know how much the thought of Terri-Lynne McClintic being moved to an aboriginal healing lodge in Saskatchewan is not okay!

“Instead of just ranting on social media, which really doesn't help, I have decided to let every elected official that represents us know. At least I can feel I've voiced my opinion to the people that hopefully can represent how people are really feeling.

“How can this even happen? She was convicted of first-degree murder with a sentence of 25 years to life in prison, not to living out her time at a healing lodge with access to children. This is disgusting.

“Tori Stafford never deserved what happened to her and her family doesn't need to have her death slapped in their faces by this disgraceful transfer.

“Please, I'm hoping with enough MPs questioning this, that it can be rethought, and this person can put back into prison where she belongs for the rest of her days.”

I thank the numerous people who took the time to write their member of Parliament to have their voices heard, and to write to the governing Liberals. I know they, too, got many emails and letters in their offices.

Let me close my remarks by saying this case is oddly reminiscent of another case in my city. Catherine McKay got drunk, three times over the legal limit, then got into her car and killed a family of four. She failed to stop at a stop sign, and hit the Van de Vorst family's vehicle, just north of my city of Saskatoon. Jordan, Chanda, two-year-old Miguire and five-year-old Kamryn were killed on January 3, 2016.

I raise this because McKay pleaded guilty and was given a 10-year sentence. Catherine McKay was then moved from a prison to the same healing lodge, just a few months after beginning her 10-year sentence.

Let me give another of the criteria for moving to a healing lodge. In order to get into a healing lodge, an indigenous offender must demonstrate an interest in traditional healing paths, and successfully complete various culturally appropriate interventions. I cannot imagine that Correctional Service Canada was able to make all these determinations in such a short time. There was a great deal of outrage in this case, too, in the province of Saskatchewan.

I think we can see a pattern here. Canadians are outraged, and rightly so. They expect the government to do the right thing and make sure a vicious offender is behind bars. My constituents have exercised their democratic right to express themselves. They have written to the public office-holders who represent them.

These are the voices of Canadians who believe dangerous child killers belong behind bars for life.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, I just want to go back to my interrupting you, perhaps inappropriately, and assure you and the House that when the member for Battle River—Crowfoot was responding to a question or asking a question, indeed, I was not the one who was laughing. I take this matter extremely seriously.

My question is for the member. I asked the member for Oxford, who spoke before him, about the decision to move the prisoner from a maximum security facility to a medium security facility in 2014. He and the member for Battle River—Crowfoot, who asked a question after him, both acknowledged that the government of the day was not aware that that had happened.

Could the member provide some input as to why the Conservative government of the day was not made properly aware of this, and why it did not respond appropriately at that time, at least appropriately in terms of the position the Conservative members are taking today?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Madam Speaker, the family is notified first. I talked about the case in my city of Saskatoon, where a family of four was killed. The family members were actually notified first of a change. That is probably what happened in 2014.

However, I should also say that in 2014, Terri-Lynne McClintic remained behind bars. She was not transferred at that time to a healing lodge. That would be my response to this. There is a big difference between someone being behind bars and being in a healing lodge.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I find this whole day's debate to be deeply difficult and emotionally wrenching, and I believe the debate is misplaced.

However, I want to ask my friend from Saskatoon—Grasswood this. The information we heard earlier today from the Minister of Public Safety was that the institution where the murderer had been placed before also had children attending.

I do not know the correctional facilities of this country without doing research. However, I take the Minister of Public Safety at his word when he says that the murderer had been moved from a place that has children to another place that has children, based on the professional advice of the Correctional Service of Canada, during a period of time when the previous government was also responsible.

I take those to be the facts, and I hate to feel emotionally manipulated.