Debates of March 26th, 2018

Business of the House

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister of Small Business and Tourism]

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions among the parties and if you seek it, I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That notwithstanding any Standing or Special Order or usual practice of the House, during Statements by Ministers later this day, Tsilhqot'in First Nation Chiefs Joe Alphonse, Russell Myers Ross, Francis Laceese, Roy Stump, Otis Guichon and Jimmy Lulua be permitted on the floor of the House and that, following the responses to the ministerial statement, Peyal Laceese of the Tsilhqot'in First Nation be permitted to perform, from the floor of the House, a traditional drumming ceremony.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

(Motion agreed to)

Postal Banking System

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

moved:

That a special committee of the House be appointed with the purpose of conducting hearings and proposing a plan for a postal banking system administered under the Canada Post Corporation; that this Committee consist of ten members of which six shall be from the government party, three from the Official Opposition, and one from the New Democratic Party, provided that the Chair is from the government party; that in addition to the Chair, there be one Vice-Chair from each of the recognized opposition parties; that the Committee have all the powers of a standing committee as provided in the Standing Orders; that the members to serve on the said Committee be appointed by the Whip of each party by depositing with the Clerk of the House a list of his or her party’s members of the Committee no later than a week after the adoption of the said motion; that the quorum of the Committee be as provided for in Standing Order 118, provided that at least one member of each recognized party be present; that membership substitutions be permitted from time to time, if required, in the manner provided for in Standing Order 114(2); and that the Committee report to the House no later than 12 months after the adoption of this motion.

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure, as the NDP critic for Canada Post, to bring Motion No. 166 forward for debate today.

In a country as vast and diverse as Canada, Canada Post is the jewel in the crown of public service corporations, providing the vital service that keeps us connected. While the corporation and its workers have come under attack over the past few years, Canada Post continues to deliver. It is the first choice of countless vendors who, in this digital age, ship parcels ordered online from coast to coast to coast.

We should recognize that the work of Canada Post is accomplished by workers, members of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and the Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association, who, despite the pressures of neo-liberalism and globalization to privatize, continue to deliver quality public service that is accessible and affordable to all.

I am proud to be a member of this NDP caucus, which has always supported labour rights and which understands that, absolutely and without exaggeration, upholding those rights is fundamental to democracy. None of us can forget the spring of 2011 when the summer recess of the House was delayed because freedom of association and the right to organize and collectively bargain was under threat by the Conservative government of the day, a government that imposed back-to-work legislation on CUPW members who had been locked out by Canada Post.

I encourage all members of the House to familiarize themselves with the speech given here by NDP leader Jack Layton in defence of the workers and in opposition to the legislation. In the meantime, I would like to quote from Jack's praise of the workers at Canada Post. He said:

I do not think a more diverse group of Canadians could be found anywhere. They come from absolutely every background. Maybe that is why there is a certain appreciation of the importance of the mail. In a way it is a part of the democratic communication process that brought them to Canada in the first place, the notion that people can communicate freely, that they can speak their mind and that there is a public postal service to make sure people can communicate with each other.

Many of them will mention the charter of rights and so on that we have here in Canada, and how proud they are to be Canadians and to be working on behalf of Canadians. That is why I found it very distressing to see them being partitioned off as though they were somehow not part of the 33 million Canadians. They are as much a part of the 33 million Canadians as anybody else.

They have connected Canadians across the country. Their labour supports an important service for all.

Members may recall that, despite opposition by the NDP, the undemocratic back-to-work legislation passed, forcing the workers to accept a less than satisfactory agreement. The good news is that in April of 2016 the Ontario Superior Court ruled that the Harper government had “infringed the [Charter] freedom of association of union members” by abrogating CUPW members' right to strike.

It is heartening to me to know that, while it may not consistently be said of Conservative and Liberal governments, the courts at least appreciate the value of public service and the protections we have put in place for free and democratic association.

It is indeed ironic that the Conservatives named their back-to-work legislation the Restoring Mail Delivery for Canadians Act, particularly in light of the fact that they proceeded to enact legislation to suspend home mail delivery to Canadians. The Conservatives did this despite overwhelming opposition to the change, most notably by seniors and disabled Canadians who would find traversing to a community mailbox difficult.

Who can forget the insensitivity of Canada Post president and CEO Deepak Chopra who responded to these objections with the statement that seniors could benefit from the exercise? It is shameful, and the callousness of that dismissal of seniors' concerns is breathtaking.

The corporation and the government argued that the suspension of home delivery was necessary in order to balance the books. The Liberals under their leader, the member for Papineau, campaigned vociferously and unapologetically in 2015 to restore home mail delivery, saying that they would be the champions of those for whom home delivery was essential.

We know now that this promise was only one in a long line of promises crafted to court votes, and just like the Liberal campaign promises to enact electoral reform, tax reform, and protect the environment, restoration of home mail delivery was thrown on the trash pile of broken promises once the Liberals had cashed in the votes of hopeful Canadians and won their majority government.

New Democrats know we can do better. New democrats know the value of affordable, accessible, and sustainable public services that are vital to the healthy community and healthy democracy we want, where everyone has a voice. This brings me to Motion No. 166, calling for the formation of the special committee to study a system of postal banking delivered by the Canada Post Corporation and propose a plan for the implementation of postal banking within a year.

However, please allow me to first share some relevant facts and figures. Over 600 municipalities have passed resolutions that support postal banking. Almost two out of every three respondents, 63%, of the 2013 Stratcom poll supported Canada Post expanding revenue-generating services, including financial services like bill payments, insurance, and postal banking.

A number of former Canada Post presidents including Michael Warren, André Ouellet, and Moya Greene, have considered and even promoted the notion of the corporation getting more involved in financial services. The UPU, a United Nations agency, thinks post offices should be looking at expanding financial services. It has produced a global road map for the future. This road map calls for the continued development of postal networks along three dimensions: physical, financial, and digital or electronic routes.

In 2014, the Liberal Party critic for Canada Post said the merits of postal banking should be explored in the context of several different options for the future of the corporation. The Liberal and Conservative members of the House will say that we have already studied postal banking and found it to be non-viable.

The Harper government suppressed a 2014 study indicating postal banking would be a win-win endeavour for Canada Post and the communities it serves and generate revenues to support other vital services, including home mail delivery. However, in 2016, the government operations committee conducted a blanket study of Canada Post including a section on postal banking and deemed it non-viable. All very strange, particularly when New Democrats, labour, and civil society had reason to believe the committee's evidence and analysis was flawed and incomplete. It leads one to wonder whether the analysis of postal banking as a viable option for Canada Post conducted in 2016 was influenced by interests other than those of the public good.

Postal banking was part of the fabric of Canadian life for over a hundred years. Just following Confederation in 1867, the federal government passed legislation establishing a post office savings bank in order to provide a savings service to the working classes and small town residents.

The Canadian postal banking system began operations in 1868 with 81 locations and grew quickly to 343 post office savings banks. Within 16 years it had a balance of $13 million in almost 67,000 accounts. However by the 1890s, Canada's postal banking system faced challenges from chartered banks, which were facing a recession. The banks suddenly became interested in the smaller depositors using post office savings banks and actively worked to undermine postal banking. Gradually the chartered bank lobby was successful in having the interest rate paid on deposits at postal savings banks lowered from 3% to 2.5%, and all but eliminated advertising by postal banks. This was the final straw. The post office savings bank system was closed down in 1969 under the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau. It was an unfortunate situation.

Much like any business whose bottom line is profit over public service, corporate banks are content to remain in small communities and remote areas as long as the profits generated meet their expectations, but as we have learned with the selling off of public services provincially, federally, and municipally, reliance on a market-driven public service has its downfalls. When we consider access to banking services, history shows us that as soon as profits diminish, even if they still exist, corporate banks deem them not worthwhile and pull up stakes, affecting remote and rural communities, first nations communities, and economically depressed areas.

Even a co-op such as Desjardins, a proud Quebec institution, has moved services, leaving not so much as an ATM where it deemed it not worthwhile. Much the same as selling off public resources such as our rail lines, power lines, seniors' services, and highway systems has demonstrated, the end result is a widening of the gap between those who have and those who have not, making life less and less affordable for everyday Canadians.

Every Canadian deserves access to financial services, and never has this been more evident than today, when social benefits are delivered by direct deposit. Lack of access to banking services literally results in an inability to pay the bills.

We heard testimony at the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women earlier this month from Francyne Joe, president of NWAC, who reported that family members of missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada have been unable to attend inquiry hearings because they lack the resources to pay their costs up front and do not have bank accounts for the inquiry to reimburse them. In this very tragic circumstance, lack of access to banking services literally means justice denied to families that have hoped and waited for it for so long. We can do better.

When we view this gap in service through an intersectional lens, we know that women in remote, rural, and economically depressed regions of Canada suffer negative economic and social impacts disproportionately compared to men. Equalization of access to banking services in all these areas would allow women better access to financial autonomy. A postal bank could become part of the transformation of the post office branch into a real centre for delivering community power. A post office location offering banking could help by offering loans for environmental refits for housing and businesses. Better accessibility to these kinds of services would empower women to become equal community partners.

Communities like my own in London, Ontario, have been deeply affected by globalization and unemployment resulting from the government's inability to keep good jobs in Canada. Payday lenders prey on Canadians of low income, charging outrageous interest fees. Postal banking would be a sustainable solution that would provide accessible banking services across Canada where no service is currently available and to those who cannot afford to, or choose not to, use corporate banks. Postal banking could generate income to allow Canada Post to provide increased services, such as the restoration of home delivery to the communities that demand it and count on that service.

Communities like my own have also been deeply affected by the insensitivity of corporate banks to their needs. Just this past year, the Toronto Dominion Bank at the corner of Highbury Avenue and Hamilton Road in London—Fanshawe closed, leaving residents of that community with no banking alternative. The nearest branch to them is over 12 kilometres away. This is a community of seniors and people with limited incomes, and they now have no bank. TD abandoning them puts these people at the mercy of payday lenders. A Google street view search of the location shows a boarded up building where the branch used to be, with a Canada Post outlet in the very same strip. We can and should do better. Let us make that postal outlet a centre for postal banking for all the people in the neighbourhood.

If passed, my motion would allow for an impartial and objective study on postal banking conducted by a special committee, which would prove what the rest of the world already knows: postal banking works. The committee would also be charged to table a plan for the implementation of postal banking under Canada Post within 12 months of the motion being adopted.

The Liberals claim to know what is best for Canadians, when in fact, they only serve their corporate and powerful friends. Their tax cuts serve the rich. They refuse to close loopholes that allow billions in revenue to be hidden in offshore tax shelters, they have broken their promise on electoral reform, and their infrastructure bank will put public services under the control of private corporations. Liberals claim to have studied postal banking already and found it flawed, chiefly because it would cut into profits for their corporate banking and business friends.

New Democrats know that postal banking is a solution that works. I ask this House to please support my motion and create equal, accessible, and just banking services for Canadians.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I am a bit surprised by the manner in which the member concluded her remarks. She tried to give a false impression, as if the Liberal government is supporting corporations and not providing tax breaks, when the record will clearly show that nothing is further from the truth. In fact, if anyone has been voting against tax breaks for our middle class and those aspiring to be part of it and supporting lower-income people through the child benefit and so much more, it is the NDP in the House.

Let me get to the subject. With regard to Canada Post, again we hear misinformation. The Liberal Party, prior to the election, said that if we formed government, there would be a moratorium. That moratorium was put in place when we formed government. We are no longer seeing door-to-door delivery continuing to evaporate. Those who are receiving it, continue to receive it.

There was a public task force. First, could the member tell the House what the conclusions were from that public task force on Canada Post, if she is aware of them? Second, has the member approached any other committee with this resolution to see if any other standing committee of the House would be interested in pursuing what she is asking us to do?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Speaker, the only false impression was the one the government created when it led people to believe that if they voted for this government, they would get their home mail delivery back. Sure, they put on a moratorium, but 800,000 people, including seniors and people living with handicaps, cannot access the community mailboxes when the snow is piled high. If anyone knows about piling it high, it is the government. In terms of its so-called tax breaks, those who have the most got the most. Tax havens and loopholes are still there.

In fact, in 2005, there was a study, and that study said that postal banking would be an important thing to pursue. The government squashed it. In 2016, there was another study. I asked for it, and it was all redacted. They are terrified, because their banking friends do not like it.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, the reality for so many Canadians is that they do not have access to banking. I think of urban areas, where people who are really struggling financially are working with payday lenders as opposed to banks.

Communities, like the many I serve, that are rural and remote do not have banks. I think specifically of a community in my riding, Gold River, that lost its banking access and then soon after lost its grocery store, and people are now driving about an hour just to go to the bank and do their grocery shopping.

It seems to me that this is a practical solution, something that has worked in other countries. I would like the member to talk about why the motion is so important and why this is really about lifting people out of poverty and giving them opportunities. It is about remembering that small communities deserve it.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for a question that is pertinent and that actually illuminates how important postal banking is for smaller communities. As I said in my remarks, there are communities where people do not have access to government support because government support comes in the form of direct deposits. If there is no bank, access to one's own money becomes impossible. There are communities where people have to go several hundred kilometres to find an ATM, because the banks do not care.

In terms of other countries, France has postal banking and Italy has postal banking, and they are very successful. There are a number of postal banks, including in New Zealand. Even Switzerland has a postal banking system that works very well.

With respect to payday lenders, the vultures are out there everywhere. They will take a $100 loan and turn it into a $60,000 debt. It takes a while, but if people do not have the money to pay back the $100, they sure cannot pay back that long-term loan.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Madam Speaker, the motion before the House calls for the creation of a special committee to conduct hearings and propose a plan for a postal banking system.

On January 24, 2018, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement announced our government's new service-first vision focused on the renewal of Canada Post. Let me briefly talk about this renewal and the new service-first vision.

Our government is committed to the renewal of Canada Post to make sure that it remains relevant and viable over the long term and that it continues to provide good, middle-class jobs and valued services to Canadians. This renewal is based on a new service-focused vision, in which Canada Post provides high-quality services at a reasonable price to Canadians, no matter where they live. That vision has been reinforced by the decision to terminate the program to convert door-to-door delivery to community mailboxes. As members know, that program was temporarily suspended in October 2015.

Our government also responded to the many concerns faced by seniors and others with mobility challenges vis-à-vis community mailboxes. Canada Post will develop an enhanced accessible delivery program that will ultimately result in improved services for tens of thousands of Canadians.

We have also asked Canada Post to set up a national advisory panel that would include experts and advocates for seniors and people with disabilities as well as Canadians with lived experience, who would provide guidance on improving the existing program.

I also want to reiterate what my colleague said about the importance of new leadership being central to implementing this new vision and renewing this iconic Canadian institution. We know that significant changes are needed to ensure that Canada Post is relevant and financial sustainable over the long run. That is why Canada Post needs to embrace innovation, experiment with pilot projects, adopt best practices, and more fully address market trends, new technologies, and shifts in the needs and expectations of Canadians.

It is about creating a new culture, a new mindset, that encourages greater collaboration and co-operation between Canada Post's management and unions. We know that our chances of success are improved when Canada Post and affected communities, unions, employees, and other stakeholders are engaged in renewal. Collaboration is needed at all levels. It is about a new way of thinking. It is about exploring opportunities to partner across the federal government with other jurisdictions and communities to leverage, for instance, the unique retail network of Canada Post.

This brings me to the issue of postal banking. This motion calls for public hearings on postal banking. Public consultations and engagement with stakeholders were an essential part of the comprehensive, evidence-based review of Canada Post undertaken by the government. As part of this review, postal banking was thoroughly analyzed by the independent task force that was established and by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. The independent task force met with unions, municipalities, postal experts, and other stakeholders. It carefully considered postal banking in its review and its discussion paper entitled, “Canada Post in the digital age”. We even reviewed the status of postal banking globally.

The independent task force conducted extensive public opinion research in order to get, “a statistically representative view of Canadians and businesses from which conclusions could be drawn”.

To support its fact finding and evidence gathering, the task force also retained the services of experts in areas such as financial analysis and international postal services. For instance, Oliver Wyman, a global management consulting firm, was contracted to identify and assess potential business opportunities, such as postal banking.

The executive summary of the discussion paper prepared by the task force states:

On the issue of postal banking, a comprehensive examination of the proposal was undertaken by third-party experts and informed by the views of Canadians who corresponded or submitted their opinions online, as well as by the presentations of other stakeholders, notably postal unions, that were engaged during the review process.

As I mentioned, the task force conducted public opinion research on postal banking. It found that most Canadians do not feel that postal banking would be a good fit for Canada Post, nor are they likely to use such a service. The task force concluded:

While full-scale postal banking is unlikely to succeed within the Canadian context, a partnership model with banks or credit unions could be considered in corporate post offices in select under-served remote communities...provided financial institutions have an interest in this initiative.

As the vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, I can emphasize that we also heard significant representation from experts and stakeholders on postal banking. For example, in reference to the research conducted by his firm, Mr. Bruce Spear of Oliver Wyman stated:

By and large, what we found with regard to postal banking was that it required too many capabilities that were non-core to Canada Post and would require a significant amount of risk in terms of getting into the lending side of the business.

The chair of the task force, Madame Françoise Bertrand, also appeared before the committee on September 20, 2016. At her appearance she discussed postal banking. She said that postal banking would be costly to operate because of such considerations as IT and security.

The feedback of these and other experts and stakeholders was reflected in the report and recommendations of the standing committee.

Moreover, I would be remiss if I did not mention the work of individual parliamentarians who hosted town hall meetings with their constituents and provided feedback to the government as part of our review of Canada Post.

Overall, we had broad and inclusive dialogue on Canada Post. The government listened to what we heard and carefully considered the findings and recommendations.

I was one of the MPs who read the 900-page report of the experts and was able to put that into the report that we finally prepared. Therefore, I would ask my colleague who spoke earlier, do we need another committee, another round of public hearings, another study on postal banking when a thorough review has already been done?

I believe there is another way, a more practical and realistic path.

I cannot overstate the importance of new leadership in implementing our new service-focused vision for Canada Post. We want to move forward with the long-term renewal of Canada Post.

Canada Post has one of the largest retail networks in Canada, and in some communities, particularly in rural Canada, it is the only federal presence. There are opportunities to leverage that network to help the federal government and other jurisdictions provide improved access to services, especially in rural and remote areas.

Both the task force and the committee highlighted the potential benefits of innovative partnerships, which could potentially include financial service partnerships if a community identifies such a need. We did communicate that to the municipalities.

Our government's new vision for Canada Post is partly based on the development of a stronger and more constructive relationship between the corporation, its workers, and the communities in which it operates. This vision will be pursued by the new leadership at Canada Post, but it will take time.

It is fair to say that all of us want Canada Post to succeed, so let us focus on supporting the new leadership, encouraging more innovation and collaboration, and bringing about positive change.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I request that since the member has made a point of talking virtually in her entire speech about the 2016 report of the task force, that she table it, unredacted, in both official languages.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to ask to have that document tabled?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

We will continue with debate.

I would mention to members that there are no questions and comments during the rest of private members' business on this topic. The member for London—Fanshawe will have an opportunity to include additional comments at the end of the debate on the motion.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Bow River.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Madam Speaker, yesterday's solution to a problem that does not exist: that is what this motion is about. I acknowledge my hon. colleague's good intentions in introducing this motion, but I cannot support Motion No. 166, and here is why.

Canada Post provided banking services from 1869 to 1968, for about 100 years. That system was ended under then prime minister Pierre Trudeau who, as we all know, was a great proponent of reducing the role of the government. That his government ended this system should tell us something. It should really give us pause here that a former prime minister who loved to expand the role of the government saw that this system was out of date in the 1960s, yet 50 years later we are debating it again.

Re-establishing a postal bank probably would contravene the Bank Act, the Trust and Loan Companies Act, and the Financial Administration Act. There would be a huge cost to regulatory compliance. That is where this idea really starts running into issues.

Canada Post is a crown corporation. Therefore, it is the taxpayers who would bear the risk of the proposed postal bank's operations. The taxpayers have suffered enough. Taxpayers should not now be called upon to risk their hard-earned money on something that stopped making sense in 1968.

Moreover, Canada already has a robust, stable network of financial institutions. Our banking system is a key pillar of our national economy and is absolutely critical. It is internationally recognized as one of the best in the world. In sharp contrast to financial institutions elsewhere, our banks did not need bailouts during the 2008 crisis. All that needs to be done is to let our banking system continue operating successfully of its own accord. If there is a new market entrant that offers consumers value, that would be great. However, it is not the place for taxpayers to bear the risk for that market entrant. We should not be picking winners and losers in the public and private sectors. Why would we risk taxpayers' money in an industry that is already functioning successfully? We already have the government's infrastructure bank to do that for us.

The Liberal government loves to spend taxpayers' money on any scheme it can find. That is why we went from small deficits that the Liberals promised in the last election campaign to the massive spending we are seeing now. Please, let us not give them any more ideas on how to spend taxpayers' money.

I think Canadians can be excused if they are a bit leery of getting involved in a new government plan. It is a great time to be a lobbyist looking for government hand-outs and a bad time to be a small business owner. Frankly, I am worried that this motion is going to give the government more ideas. Canada needs less government intervention, not more. I know some of my hon. colleagues do not share my views on the role of government, but surely they can agree we should not be intervening where we are not needed. It is a no-brainer. We should stay out of it.

The proposal is a solution looking for a problem. It reminds me of Groucho Marx's remark, “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”

I have heard the suggestion that we need Canada Post banking because financial services are inaccessible in Canada. Really? According to the World Bank, 99% of Canadian adults already have an account with a financial institution. In fact, there are more options for banking than ever before. Banking in Canada and around the world has been revolutionized over the past few decades. Online is already becoming the preferred method of banking. Smart phones let us use our mobile devices to bank. Canadians are increasingly adopting mobile banking with 31% using it as of 2017. The sector is innovating so quickly that many young Canadians do not even use credit cards. Three of my grandchildren are among them. This is not a market that Canada Post can just awkwardly be inserted into.

In China, 980 million of its population bank online on a cellphone. Recently, I watched a street vendor in China who was selling pieces of watermelon and the payment went from the customer's cellphone to the vendor's cellphone. That is how much it has changed.

With my own experience of post offices, in the 1950s, they were a community centre. People gathered at post offices. It was the only place to get their mail. However, in my riding there is virtually no one doing that anymore. With 40 or 50 years of mailboxes in our neighbourhoods, very few people go to the post office. I am having a hard time remembering the last time I was in a post office. My children give me a hard time about even going to a bank. I show up in a bank once in a while. My children who own businesses and properties do a lot of financial work and never go near a bank. They all do it electronically. Whether approving finances or changing finances, they never go to a bank. Therefore, why would they go to a post office? In my riding, there is no one to run a post office. They are not there.

We are not talking about setting up a shop with a vault in the back. Banking is not conducted like it was portrayed in It's a Wonderful Life. It is not that way anymore. It is a fast-paced, complex industry. It certainly is not some kind of silver bullet that will magically solve Canada Post. The government is no George Bailey, and it cannot set up a new building and loan on the main street anywhere.

I know that Canada Post has some serious challenges at times. Currently, two-thirds of people do not receive mail at their door, and the challenge of delivery is interesting. My son, who needed a piece of equipment that is common in Canada, could not find one his community or in Canada. He received it from London in four days, with delivery, and it was not Canada Post. Young people know how to do it. They know where to get things in the world, and it is not through Canada Post.

I understand that Canada Post's traditional business model is suffering and Canada Post managers are looking for ways to innovate. I respect that. However, if there ever was a good time for Canada Post to create a full range of real retail banking, now is not the time. It does not make sense. If the need is not there, success is not going to follow. The banking sector is already providing Canadians with all the services they could ask for; there really is no need. If we want to preserve Canada Post, this is not the way to do it.

Canada Post has its challenges right now because it has not kept up with technological changes. Its operations are expensive. Let us not get it involved in more expensive operations in a very fast-paced, technologically advanced industry. If they think Canadians are losing faith in Canada Post now, they should wait until they are confronted by the inevitable cost overruns and instability of a different bank. Let us not squander Canada Post's remaining viability and the Canadian public's remaining goodwill on postal banking.

Procedure and House Affairs

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. There have been consultations, and I believe if you seek it you will find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That the membership of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs be amended as follows: Mr. Kennedy Stewart (Burnaby South) for Mr. David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre).

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Postal Banking System

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to stand here today as the representative of North Island—Powell River to speak on Motion No. 166. This motion is important to my riding; it is to set a special committee to study postal banking and propose a system of delivery under Canada Post.

I would like to thank the member for London—Fanshawe for her hard work on this important file. I also want to recognize the postal workers across my riding who work hard every day to deliver the mail and make sure that people in our communities are connected, and say a special thanks to the CUPW members.

As a representative of a rural and remote community, I am often very disappointed by the lack of services to some of our more remote communities. I think of Holberg, Gold River, Sointula, and Tahsis, communities that are working very hard to be strong in a changing economy. I think of Gold River specifically, which lost access to banking in the community a while back, and soon after lost its grocery store.

If members come to my riding and see the vast numbers of people living in more rural and remote communities, look at the roads and the length of time it takes to get to a community, they will see that it can be a real barrier when there is no access to a bank. People who are struggling financially have to take that long journey to get food and to do their banking. It adds more stress to those communities. I think about how expensive gas is getting as well.

When we talk about what our public services provide, it is about looking at how we make services accessible, how we make sure that people do not get left behind, and how we remember that rural and remote communities have a right to exist. Our job is to look at how everyone across our country is doing and to make sure there are opportunities.

Small communities matter. We know that almost 1,200 communities across Canada have no bank at all and no credit union, but they do have a post office. This is a very important discussion about how we make sure those services are accessible, how we look at those small communities and their vitality, and what we can do to remove some of the burdens that are often placed on those communities.

It is also important to look at how we keep money in the community. Postal banking is working. It is a job. There are some communities that would benefit from having those jobs locally within their community. It is also working in other countries. Some examples are France, New Zealand, and Italy. The model is a little different for each country, looking at the needs they have, but they are successful. They are creating revenue, making sure that the services are more accessible to people across their countries, and to different groups.

Why not have an opportunity to look at creating a revenue stream for Canada Post, as well as looking at the opportunity to create meaningful work in some of our communities that so desperately need them?

Recently I went to Port Hardy and Port McNeill in my riding. I did another round of town halls on the disability tax credit. I have been very proud to do many of them across the riding, and I am looking forward to doing them in several other communities in the next few months. This is very important. One of the challenges that some of our smaller communities have is accessing the ability to save money through this program for their children, for themselves, to look to the future, putting away for their retirement savings. Part of it is their lack of banking services.

This is also about looking at how we make sure these services that the federal government provides are delivered in many of the communities that desperately need them. It is wrong to have people who have already faced different challenges also lose this opportunity. We know that a lack of access to banking has a significant impact on the people who are the poorest in this country. If we are talking about improving access for women, and economic independence for them, we need to be looking at how this intersects with that reality.

Too many small communities continue to struggle. We know that what they need is a helping hand so they can look at the opportunities around them. However, if they are struggling with the main essentials of trying to find a way to have a bank, or losing their grocery stores, it makes it that much harder for small business to be successful.

It is about making sure that we are looking at fairness across our country as well. We know that payday lenders across Canada are problematic, because most of the people who access this service are usually low income and they can get further and further into debt. This is also about making sure that we have accessible services to people, that they are walkable. The last member talked about how a lot of post offices are not used in the same way. I have stood in many lineups in the post office in my riding, and it is a very busy place, with a lot of people accessing it. It is also close to downtown and close to buses. It is available for people who need it. This is an important thing to be looking at.

Small communities deserve and need more opportunities to thrive, and this will open many doors. We know that 29 municipalities across British Columbia have supported this type of banking. We know when municipalities are telling us that there is a gap, that there is a need that needs to be met, it is something we need to listen to. We are here in Ottawa. We are not there on the ground every day, as so many municipal leaders are. Working for and listening to municipalities makes plain sense to me.

I also want to briefly mention one of the postal offices in my riding, at the Merville General Store. When I look at this opportunity, I think about that store and how it has not been paid its rent in 53 months from Canada Post. There is a lot of work to do there. We want to make sure that people get paid their rent in a timely fashion. It is $210 a month to provide access to a service that is much needed in that area and makes sense. It does not make sense that Canada Post is not paying its bills.

There is a lot of work to be done here. We look at the banking opportunities, the realities of rural and remote communities, the realities of people who are struggling in poverty, feeling forced to use payday lenders. When we look at some communities that are very far away from a bank, even if it is in an urban setting, sometimes there are neighbourhoods where people cannot get to banks. We know that online banking is part of that. I appreciate the work being done there. At the same time, I think of so many communities I represent that have no access to Internet, or very limited access.

We have to look at those communities, because they do matter. We need to talk about them. We need to look at their needs and at how we can alleviate some of the stress, so they have opportunities to do better.

I hope that members in the House will put aside thoughts that are not looking at the needs of many communities across this country, ask this hard question, and let us do the research so we can have a plan that makes sense for everyday Canadians.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for London—Fanshawe for initiating the debate on Motion No. 166, which is about a postal banking system.

The motion calls for the creation of a special committee to conduct hearings and propose a plan for a postal banking system.

The government may not have decided where it stands on this issue, but I have. I see at least three reasons why we should reject this motion.

First, the future of Canada Post was studied extensively in 2016. The government has only just tabled its response, which does not include any specific recommendation on postal banking. Second, there is already a committee of the House responsible for Canada Post, which is more than capable of addressing the topic. Third, members of the government operations committee, at the insistence of the Liberal members of that committee, had the opportunity to review postal banking in depth. It determined, in section 4.2 of its report for this 42nd Parliament, that Canada Post should stick to its core competencies.

As that report indicates, we believe in the future of Canada Post, just not necessarily as a bank. As members may recall, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement announced, on January 24, the new service first vision for Canada Post, along with a number of immediate actions in support of that vision. Her announcement followed a comprehensive evidence-based review that included extensive public consultations with Canadians.

An independent task force was established that met with unions, municipalities, postal experts, and other stakeholders. It studied international best practices, analyzed potential options such as postal banking, and compiled this information into a discussion paper on our national postal system in the digital age, at a cost of approximately $2 million dollars to taxpayers.

Additionally, the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, of which I was a member, travelled across the country to hear directly from Canadians, communities, associations, unions, businesses, and individuals. We submitted a detailed report and made recommendations to the government. We had 22 days on the road, at a cost of half a million dollars to taxpayers. We also heard from other parliamentarians, whether from personal feedback or town halls that they held in their home ridings.

We just completed the national conversation on Canada Post, which was quite comprehensive. The government listened to what was said and carefully considered findings and recommendations. We heard that Canadians care deeply about Canada Post and its ability to provide the services that are within its core competency. Through this review, one thing became abundantly clear: The core value of Canada Post is a service that all Canadians enjoy, expect, and appreciate. That is why the government's position is to renew Canada Post.

The government wants to reorganize Canada Post to ensure its continued relevance and long-term viability and to ensure that it continues to sustain middle-class jobs and provide valuable services to Canadians.

The new vision, which puts service front and centre, is key to renewing this iconic institution. Guided by the new vision, Canada Post will provide high-quality, reasonably priced services to Canadians, no matter where they live.

We also know that significant changes are needed to ensure the long-term relevance and financial stability of Canada Post. That is why, as part of the renewal, the government has asked Canada Post to embrace innovation, experimentation, and pilot projects; to adopt best practices; and to address market trends, new technologies, and shifts in the needs and expectations of Canadians.

The digital transformation occurring right now in the postal service industry is also occurring in the banking industry. It may be unreasonable to expect Canada Post, given its core competencies and the difficulties it is having in postal services, to also try to innovate, develop, and champion banking, when there is already a very competitive and stable banking market within the country.

We also expect Canada Post to explore partnership opportunities that could help the federal government and other jurisdictions leverage Canada Post's large retail network to provide access to government services, especially in rural and remote areas, and improve public services to Canadians.

As I said earlier, the government not only announced a new way forward for Canada Post, but also took immediate steps in support of that vision.

First, Canada Post permanently terminated its program to convert door-to-door delivery to community mailboxes. We made that promise to Canadians, and we kept it.

Second, after listening to the concerns faced by seniors and others with mobility challenges vis-à-vis community mailboxes, Canada Post will develop an enhanced accessible delivery program. This program will improve service for tens of thousands of Canadians. A national advisory panel will include experts as well as Canadians with lived experience who will provide guidance on improving the existing program.

Third, we have asked Canada Post to better promote its remittance services, which are used by Canadians to send money overseas to support family members.

Fourth, in line with the renewed focus on service, the government will reclassify the Canada Post Corporation under the Financial Administration Act so that it can reinvest its profits into service and innovation.

Finally, to fulfill the government's new vision, we need new leadership. The appointment of Jessica McDonald as chair of the board of directors is the first step. It is also part of a broader renewal of the board and a wider change in leadership at Canada Post that will support greater collaboration, diversity, and broader perspectives. An improved relationship between labour and management at Canada Post is something we heard about extensively in our consultations, and that would be a benefit not only to the organization itself, but also to its morale and its ability to deliver the services that Canadians deserve and expect.

I will quote from the discussion paper of the task force, which said:

According to experts and stakeholders, Canada’s financial environment is not conducive to the establishment and operation of full-scale postal banking. Postal banking is not likely to succeed in Canada as a result of the existence of a mature and competitive banking environment, as well as the extensive market coverage of not-for-profit credit unions in which more than 10 million Canadians have accounts.

As part of its review, the task force conducted public opinion research to gather feedback from Canadians, including on the issue of postal banking. Here are some of those findings.

Some 60 per cent of surveyed Canadians think that having “Canada Post open a bank that offers a complete line of banking services” would be a poor fit with Canada Post’s business, versus 38 per cent who believe that the idea has potential.... [A]mong Canadians that seem to like the idea of postal banking, ultimately, only 7 per cent claim that they would actually use postal banking services.

The Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates also analyzed the topic of postal banking. It found that 99% of Canadians have bank accounts, and the majority of these Canadians, or 55%, use the Internet for most of their banking transactions. This committee, of which I was a member, also looked at whether Canada had done its due diligence in reviewing the possibility of postal banking, and we found that Canada Post's decision not to pursue this solution was reasonable. The committee recommended that Canada Post focus on its core competencies to help Canada meet the challenges of the 21st century.

It is fair to say that the possibility of postal banking has been adequately examined, and Canadians were widely consulted on this topic between June and November 2016. Is it really necessary to do this work all over again, hold almost the same hearings, and create another committee on top of the existing standing committee? I do not think so.

Canada Post has one of the largest retail networks in Canada, and in some communities, particularly in rural Canada, Canada Post is the only federal presence. This does not mean that Canadians, even rural Canadians, do not have access to banking services, because they do. However, there are other ways the assets of Canada Post can be leveraged, and our committee recommended that they be leveraged in such a fashion as to allow better access to public government services through these locations. We think this is a better fit.

It is essential that the new leadership at Canada Post be given sufficient time to implement our new service-first vision and consider innovative approaches to the long-term sustainability of Canada Post. This should be done before Parliament undertakes another expensive comprehensive review.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired, and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the Order Paper.