Debates of May 22nd, 2018

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, that is an excellent and very important question. To have an economy that works and grows, we know that it is essential to make long-term investments in our infrastructure.

Science and research infrastructure is crucial for the future. We know how important it is to ensure that we are well placed for the future. In our 2018 budget, we made investments in Canadians to make sure that there is more research in our economy in the future.

We decided to invest $1.7 billion over five years in granting councils to make sure enough research is being conducted. We also invested in vital science and research facilities.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Madam Chair, I appreciate the minister's response. I would like to invite him to my riding, Louis-Hébert, which is lucky to be home to Laval University, which is in the greater Quebec City area. I have been warmly welcomed after a decade of massive cuts to science under the leadership of Mr. Harper and his team from the other side.

Could the minister tell us more about the impact that innovation and science have on Canada's economy and long-term prosperity, for all Canadians?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, that is a good question. We know that science must be taken into consideration if we want to see innovation in our economy and we want companies to invest.

In our budget, we made investments in research across the country. We also came up with an approach to intellectual property that would help companies find ways to market their ideas, to foster innovation and generate opportunities. This is very important. Research and innovation will help us achieve better economic growth in the future.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, on May 16, the finance minister said in the media that if Kinder Morgan bails on the project, the government would reimburse any financial losses related to British Columbia's political opposition incurred by any other investor willing to take the project on, as long as reimbursement is “sound and fair and beneficial for Canadians.”

What is the range of the benefit or the bailout contemplated by the minister?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to say that we made a commitment that we want to move forward on a project that is in our national interest. We see that the Trans Mountain expansion project, which will create 15,000 jobs across our country, about 9,000 of them in British Columbia and 6,000 in Alberta and across the country, is critically important, not only for those direct jobs, as important as they are, but also for the advantage it would provide for our economy in allowing us to get our resources to international markets and to get a reasonable price for those resources.

What we have said is that we will ensure that the project can move forward. I am in discussions with the project proponent to do that in a way that is commercially reasonable and allows a private project to move forward, and to do that in an approach that meets the test—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

The hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I noticed that the finance minister actually answered a question I asked.

He has talked publicly about basically giving a cheque to investors. What is the lowest amount the finance department is currently contemplating for this cheque?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, again, we are in private discussions with the project proponent, and I will not go into those discussions in public.

What I can say is that we have been very clear that we are looking to deal with the delays and uncertainties caused by Premier Horgan that have introduced difficulties for the private proponent to actually move forward on this project. We believe that it is able to be done in a commercially appropriate way, and that means whatever approach we take will meet the test of being commercially reasonable and done in a way that benefits Canadians, creating the economic advantage, the jobs advantage, and the broader advantage for our economy.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, when we publicly say that we will reimburse any financial losses, we must have a figure in mind. As he has not answered my first two questions, I would like to ask if he can tell me the lowest amount and the highest amount currently being contemplated by the Department of Finance for reimbursement by the federal government.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, of course, my comments to the press have been mis-characterized by the member opposite. What I have said is that we will deal with the delays and uncertainty caused by Premier Horgan in a way that is commercially appropriate.

We believe that this project has commercial merit. We believe that what we put forward can meet the test of being done in that way, providing benefits for Canadians both directly in the project but more broadly for the economy and for those Canadians who will have the 15,000 jobs that will come from this project.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I did quote him from The Globe and Mail, so I do not think I am the one mis-characterizing his position.

The minister does not want to answer that question. He is willing to actually talk about the blank cheque and reimbursement without giving a ceiling or a maximum. I would like to know if he is contemplating that the Canadian government would actually buy an interest or a stake in Trans Mountain.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, as I have said, I am having discussions with the project proponent. Of course, those discussions are ones we are doing in private, and I will not be negotiating in public.

As I have said before, we believe that this is a project that has commercial merit. We believe it is one that can be undertaken on that basis, and that is, of course, what we are seeking to achieve.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I do not believe I mis-characterized his announcement, when he said as long as the reimbursement is “sound and fair and beneficial for Canadians.”

I would like the minister to tell me and Canadians in what circumstances giving a cheque to an oil company giant would be sound, fair, and beneficial for Canadians.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, as I have said, we believe it is important that we deal with the delays and uncertainties created by Premier Horgan on a project that has been proved provincially and proved federally, has gone through a robust environmental assessment process, and has moved forward with a $1.5 billion best-in-world oceans protection plan.

We are moving forward to ensure that we deal with the specific risk created by Premier Horgan, that risk of delay and uncertainty, so that a commercially viable project can move forward in a way that provides the kinds of advantages we have said it should provide, both on a project basis for those 15,000 Canadians that will have the jobs, and, of course, for the broader economy so that we can have access to move our resources to international markets and get world prices.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to point out that Premier Horgan is actually respecting an election promise. I cannot say the same for this federal government, which actually promised to eliminate subsidies to the oil and gas industry.

On May 27, Quebec announced that it would impose the Quebec sales tax on intangible products and foreign digital service providers, including Netflix subscriptions.

When will Canada do the same?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, we know that it is very important to have a tax system that works. We know that we must work with our international counterparts to have a system that meshes with systems around the globe. Multilateral efforts are under way to establish an international approach to major digital companies. That is very important. We want a coordinated approach by 2020 that works in the long term.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am truly sorry, but I asked a question about the sales tax and his answer was about income tax. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he knows the difference between a sales tax and income tax.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, all taxes are part of the tax system. We must find an approach to international digital companies that works in the long term. We have to consider the effects of each measure on the whole. At present, some measures are different in every country. We have to find a way to collaborate because tax systems are international. We obviously need to consider the system as a whole to determine how it will work in the future.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, we are talking about sales tax, not income tax. I would like to ask the minister a very simple question. He mentioned the G7, and I would like to know how many G7 countries do not charge sales tax for foreign digital services, such as Netflix and Facebook.

How many of the seven G7 countries do not charge sales tax?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, perhaps the member is aware that every country currently has a different goods and services tax system. We have to find a way to work with the other countries to ensure that our approach will be good for the future. That is what we are doing with the OECD, and we are going to find a solution. That is important for our economy and for the future.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, that does not answer my very simple question. There are seven countries in the G7. I would like the finance minister to tell me how many of those seven countries do not charge any sales tax on foreign digital services.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, the member is right. There are seven countries in the G7. Obviously, Canada is not the only country that does not have a specific approach right now. That is why we need to find a common approach. If he so desires, the member can find the answer in the information that is available to the public.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I can actually provide the answer. Out of the seven countries in the G7, there is only one that applies no sales tax whatsoever to foreign digital services, and that is Canada. Does the minister know how much sales tax European Union countries charge on foreign digital services like Netflix or Facebook?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is vital to get the facts right in order to consider how we can work together. This is an example. The member's belief is incorrect, because now, there are two. That is the truth in the G7 at this time. We need to work together to find an approach that works for every country in the world. With international companies, there is a chance they could change their method of operation if there is no concerted approach involving every country. We are working to find an approach that works for all countries.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, could the minister tell us how much sales tax CraveTV and illico, which are Canadian digital services, have to collect from their customers, which Netflix does not have to collect in Ontario?