House of Commons Hansard #298 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Chair, Canadians understand that this government was elected based on its promises. It has gone from small deficits to big ones. The government promised that we would have a zero deficit in 2019, but in reality, it has no idea when it will balance the budget. It claimed that it would be transparent, but in reality, it is hiding information from Canadians about the federal carbon tax.

This is my last question, and once again, it is a very simple one. Can the Minister of Finance give Canadians an example—just one example—of the $3 billion in savings he projected two years ago?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, it is always important for us to be fiscally responsible. We will continue with our approach, which is working, and look at the situation facing Canadians and their families in the future. Fortunately, we are in a good position, but there are still things to do, which is why we will continue with our approach.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:20 p.m.

West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country B.C.

Liberal

Pam Goldsmith-Jones LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade

Mr. Chair, Canadians revere nature and are recognized for that. Our desire to conserve, restore, and protect the natural environment is part of who we are, and with climate change upon us, we especially recognize the need to make significant investments in Canada's air, water, and wild spaces for our children and grandchildren.

We also recognize that creating a world-leading clean economy is the imperative of our time. Putting a price on carbon pollution is a foundational aspect of achieving a clean energy economy. The balance between the natural environment and building a cleaner, greener economy is our collective challenge. Therefore, our government has allocated $5.7 billion over 12 years in support of the implementation of the pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change. This plan, developed with the provinces and territories and in consultation with indigenous peoples will build a healthy environment by supporting a strong, clean economy, fostering innovation, and creating good, well-paying jobs for the middle class.

In November 2016 the government also launched a $1.5 billion national oceans protection plan to improve marine safety and responsible shipping, protect Canada's marine environment, and unlock opportunities for indigenous people and coastal communities. Budget 2018 has proposed further investment to help grow a healthy and sustainable clean economy. Canada has committed to conserving at least 17% of its land and inland waters by 2020 through networks of protected areas and other conservation measures. Both protected and conserved areas will ensure healthier habitats for species at risk and improve biodiversity.

To that end, budget 2018 proposed a historic investment of more than $1.3 billion over five years, one of the most significant investments in nature conservation in Canadian history. This investment would contribute $500 million from the federal government to create a new $1 billion nature fund in partnership with corporate, not for profit, provincial, territorial, and other partners. Through this collaboration, the nature fund would make it possible to secure private land, support provincial and territorial species protection efforts, and build the capacity of indigenous peoples to conserve land and species for our benefit and that of future generations.

The government is also investing $1 billion over five years to establish better rules for the review of major projects that will protect our environment, fish, and waterways; rebuild public trust; and help create new jobs and economic opportunities. This is an example of delivering on a promise to protect the environment, restore public trust in federal environmental assessment and regulatory processes, and provide predictability for businesses.

Budget 2018 proposed even further investments to help grow a healthy and sustainable clean economy. We are advancing efforts to better protect, preserve, and recover endangered marine life in Canada, with an investment of $167 million over five years. This includes funding for research to help us better understand the factors affecting the health of endangered whale species, as well as actions we can take now to help address threats arising from human activity. Whales are vital to healthy marine ecosystems and an important part of eco tourism in Canada's Pacific and Atlantic coastal regions and in the St. Lawrence estuary.

To keep people and communities safe we also need to improve the networks that collect data and monitor changes in weather, climate, water, ice, and air. Budget 2018 proposes to improve Canada's weather and water services with $120 million over five years to help protect people and communities from the devastating impacts of extreme weather events. These events, such as the wildfires and flooding we have unfortunately seen recently, are having and can have a devastating impact on people, communities, and our economy.

Therefore, another proposed measure of our government is our plan to extend for five years the existing accelerated deduction for clean energy generation and energy efficiency equipment to property acquired before 2025. The deferral of tax associated with this measure is expected to provide businesses with a benefit of approximately $123 million over five years.

Finally, to ensure that a price on carbon pollution is in place across Canada, we are developing a federal system that would apply in provinces and territories upon request, and also in those that do not have a pricing system in place that meets the federal standards, by the end of this year. The government is also supporting the federal carbon pollution pricing system with $109 million in new funding over five years for Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency to develop, implement, and enforce the federal carbon pricing system.

As a member of Parliament from British Columbia and the former mayor of West Vancouver, I remember former British Columbia premier Gordon Campbell's leadership well. I know how British Columbia, as North America's first jurisdiction with an economy-wide pricing policy on carbon in 2008, has led and succeeded, and as a government, we know what British Columbia learned. Members can read all about it in a recent 2015 report I participated in. It is called “How to Adopt a Winning Carbon Price”.

Here are some key recommendations: one, a carbon tax and a thriving economy can coexist; two, strong leadership matters; three, start with a low price; four, commit to a schedule of price increases; five, revenue neutrality helps to address private sector concerns; six, a carbon tax is one component of a suite of climate policies; and finally, expect a clean environment, an enhanced reputation, and a thriving clean-tech sector.

The results of British Columbia's decade-old initiative to put a price on carbon are well understood. In 2012, at a tax rate of $30 a tonne, more than $1 billion a year is collected because of pricing carbon, and each year it is accompanied by an equal or greater tax cut. The opportunity created by pricing carbon pollution in British Columbia meant a reduction in tax rates for large and small businesses, a reduction in personal income tax rates, a climate action tax credit for low-income British Columbians, and an annual $200 benefit for rural and northern homeowners. These are the choices B.C. made.

Under our plan, the provinces, under the leadership of the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, may make their own choices too. When we began, the public supported pricing carbon by 54%. This steadily grew to 64% in 2012 as B.C.'s economy slightly outperformed the rest of Canada throughout. For the clean-tech sector, the shift has been positive.

In conclusion, our quality of life as Canadians and our present and future prosperity are deeply connected to the environment in which we live. The extraordinary beauty of Canada's nature, parks, and wild spaces are central to our identity as Canadians. As Canadians, it is a public trust.

We are forging ahead with determination and ambition toward a more prosperous future for all Canadians. Our government is making significant investments toward a strong and sustainable low-carbon economy, one that creates growth and good middle-class jobs while preserving our safety, security, and natural environment for future generations.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Assistant Deputy Chair Liberal Anthony Rota

Does the parliamentary secretary have a question or a comment?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Goldsmith-Jones Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Chair, the protection of Canada's natural heritage is in the interest of all Canadians. On behalf of the community I represent, I am proud to aspire to sustainable environmental policies that can lead to a strong economy. It is the role of our government to set an example for sustainable development in supporting businesses and contributing to a green economy.

The government is investing $1.4 billion in projects through the low-carbon economy leadership fund, which will generate clean growth and reduce greenhouse gas emissions while creating jobs for Canadians for years to come. Also, the greening government strategy sets an ambitious target to reduce direct and indirect greenhouse gas emissions from Government of Canada operations, so I would like to ask if the Minister of Finance could please tell us more about the federal carbon pollution pricing system.

Climate change is one of our most pressing challenges. The impacts are real, including coastal erosion; thawing permafrost; and increases in heat waves, droughts, and flooding. At the same time, it seems evident that climate action creates an opportunity for Canada. It would be helpful to hear more about actions the government is taking in this regard.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:25 p.m.

Toronto Centre Ontario

Liberal

Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance

Mr. Chair, I know the hon. member would agree Canadians understand the effects of pollution are not free, because I know she spent a significant of her career talking about that. She also knows that polluting the air we breathe and the earth and the oceans that feed us must come at a cost to those who do the polluting.

Pricing carbon pollution is simply one of the most effective ways to reduce emissions. It creates incentives for businesses and households to innovate more and pollute less. That is why putting a price on carbon pollution is central to the government's plans to fight climate change and to grow the economy.

Through Bill C-74, which is currently before Parliament, the government is taking action to reduce emissions by introducing the greenhouse gas pollution pricing act, which would put a legal framework in place for the proposed federal carbon pollution pricing system. The pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change I mentioned earlier includes a collaborative pan-Canadian approach to pricing carbon pollution, with the aim of having carbon pricing in place in all provinces and territories this calendar year.

Right now, a price on carbon pollution is in place in four provinces—Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta—covering over 80% of the Canadian population. These provinces are leading Canada in economic growth. Simply put, we are putting a price on what we do not want, which is carbon pollution, while encouraging more of what we do want: clean innovation and lower emissions.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Goldsmith-Jones Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Chair, I would also like to ask, because of the experience in British Columbia, how the minister sees this benefiting Canada's reputation in the world.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, it is an important question and it is opportune right now, as we are the president of the G7 countries.

One of the initiatives we are putting forward as the president of the G7 is a focus on the assurance that a strong economy and a strong environment go hand in hand. We recognize that in order to be a leader around the world in responsibly extracting resources, we also need to think about how we responsibly ensure that we lower emissions over the long term. That is why we are looking at how we price carbon and showing not only Canadians but the world that a country like Canada has taken the approach of making sure that we are environmentally conscious and doing that while we also have growth in the economy. We are making sure that Canadians have opportunities today and that we are responsibly providing opportunities for tomorrow through an approach that will encourage clean technology options and lower emissions as well as help the economy.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Goldsmith-Jones Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Chair, I would also like to congratulate the minister on the integration of his budget. Perhaps he could comment on how cities and communities are benefiting from the infrastructure investment that is the corollary of putting a price on carbon pollution.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, we know that in making investments for the long term, some of the investments that have the most significant positive impact on our economy are infrastructure investments. They have that impact because they create jobs today and make our economy more productive and efficient over the long run. Also, new investments in infrastructure often create the opportunity for us to be more environmentally conscious over the long term. Investment in public transit is a good example.

The kinds of investments we are making together with municipalities and provinces are intended to make the lives of Canadians better, to enable cities to have better public transit systems, and to enable provinces to have a better way of approaching the challenges they face in collaborating with cities to get these projects done. We are finding a very responsive and effective way of working together with provinces and municipalities and getting things done. As a result, in direct answer to the question, we are getting to agreements with them that are showing the benefits that we want for Canadians.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Goldsmith-Jones Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Chair, another aspect of our investment that is really exciting and synergistic and shows tremendous potential is our superclusters announcement. It offers a lot of hope for the kind of clean, green economy we are wishing to build. Perhaps the minister could comment on that.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to talk about what we are trying to achieve with the superclusters approach, which, as the member mentioned, is about growing our economy. It is also about finding ways to grow our economy in an environmentally conscious way.

We have said that in order to find ways to accelerate economic growth, we need to consider the nexus of investment required between companies large and small, research institutes, and universities, so that we can create more economic advantage through those investments. We have chosen some recipients for that supercluster funding through a very competitive process, and that includes one recipient that is focused on clean technologies and how we can significantly improve our ability to generate opportunities in that sector.

We will continue with this approach. We are convinced that we will be able to accelerate our economic opportunities in specific sectors that will be positive in the long term for our economy.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I will be using all of my time to ask the Minister of Finance questions. I would first like to thank him for being here today.

My questions are primarily related to taxation. The first ones concern the tax treaties Canada has signed with almost 97 countries, if my memory serves me well. The Minister of Finance stated that he was proud of that number.

What is the main purpose of a tax treaty for the Minister of Finance?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Toronto Centre Ontario

Liberal

Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance

Mr. Chair, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to answer the member's questions.

In our view, we need tax treaties with other countries in order to be part of a global community. Companies considering investing in other countries need an approach that puts them in a good position. Therefore, we need these agreements.

Our strategy of entering into agreements is essentially the same as that of all developed countries. Our approach seeks to facilitate investments. We will continue with this approach, which has worked for a long time.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I take it that the answer is basically to avoid double taxation.

Can the Minister of Finance confirm that we have such an agreement with Barbados?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, given that the purpose of tax treaties is to avoid double taxation and that we have a signed a treaty with Barbados, as the Minister of Finance just confirmed, can he tell us what is the tax rate for foreign corporations established in Barbados?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, what I can say is that we have agreements with other countries, as we have a territorial tax system so that we can ensure that business investment can happen in those countries. That is an approach that allows our businesses to compete on equal footing.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I was just looking for a percentage. It takes no more than five seconds.

We have had a tax treaty with Barbados since 1980. I hope the minister has had the time to look at that rate.

Once more, what is the tax rate for foreign corporations established in Barbados?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I can say that I am enormously privileged to be the Minister of Finance. One of the things that I have not taken upon myself is to memorize the tax rates of every country in the world. I am happy if the member opposite would like me to recite Canadian tax rates, on which I have a pretty high level of fluency.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I thought that 30 seconds would give the minister and his colleagues enough time to find the answer.

Can the minister confirm the amount, in Canadian dollars, of Canadian foreign investments in Barbados currently, or the latest available figures according to Statistics Canada?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I can say again that in my efforts to memorize the global economy, I have not taken it upon myself to try to memorize the specific amounts of investment into Barbados, but certainly I am happy to inform the member that there is this thing called “Google”, and if he would like to use it, he can find that information for himself.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:40 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I looked and the amount of investments in Barbados was $68 billion in 2016.

Can the minister tell us what types of investments are made in Barbados?

Barbados is still the third or fourth country where Canada makes the most foreign investments after the United States and England. Why does Barbados always rank third or fourth?

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, what I can say is that the Canadian tax system contains rules to ensure that Canadian corporations do not escape their tax obligations here by shifting Canadian-source income to low-tax countries. I clearly do not know about every business investment into every other country, but we do have rules that make sure that a Canadian corporation could not avoid paying taxes in Canada on investment income simply by moving passive assets abroad. Such income would continue to be taxed in Canada, even if earned abroad.

I am happy to have more information for the member on our approach internationally.

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2018-19Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

9:40 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, it is simple math: 1 + 1 = 2. Corporations in Barbados are taxed between 0.5 and 2.5%. We have a double taxation agreement with Barbados. I believe that the calculation is 1 + 1 = 2 here as well.

In March 2017, the Minister of Finance voted in favour of a motion calling for tax agreements such as the one with Barbados and 96 others to be renegotiated.

Has the minister renegotiated the tax agreement with Barbados?