Debates of May 23rd, 2018

Government Response to Petitions

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I declare the motion carried.

Bill C-76—Time Allocation Motion

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister of Small Business and Tourism]

moved:

That, in relation to Bill C-76, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and other Acts and to make certain consequential amendments, not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the consideration at second reading stage of the Bill; and

That, 15 minutes before the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders on the day allotted to the consideration at second reading stage of the said Bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the Bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Pursuant to Standing Order 67.1, there will now be a 30-minute question period. I invite hon. members who wish to ask questions to rise in their places so the Chair has some idea of the number of members who wish to participate in this question period.

The hon. member for Banff—Airdrie.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Speaker, here we are and this is the situation. The government has brought forward changes to our electoral law, the law that governs the way the House of Commons is made up, the way that Canadians have an opportunity to have a say on who sits here and represents them here. I do not know of any legislation that could be more significant, but after one hour of debate, the government moved notice of time allocation.

I remember a few years ago when the Liberal member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame brought forward a motion that would amend some Standing Orders of the House of Commons. One of them was a standing order that dealt with time allocation. It was to change it so that no motion pursuant to that standing order could be moved if it dealt with the Canada Elections Act or the Parliament of Canada Act. It also went on to amend the standing order around closure as well to make sure that closure would not be used for the Canada Elections Act or the Parliament of Canada Act.

A number of members of the Liberal Party made comments then, a couple of which I will share. The member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame said:

If we are actually debating on second reading, third reading, or reports stage any changes to the Elections Act or the Parliament of Canada Act, time allocation and closure need not apply.....

He continued:

[I]f we are making changes to the way Canadians express their opinions by the fundamental right of democracy.... I hope every member of this House will agree with us that closure and, specifically, time allocation would be set aside because of something of this importance.

I also remember the member for Winnipeg North saying:

We now have the government bringing in time allocation on a bill that deals with Elections Canada.... We need to debate this legislation.

The hon. member for Malpeque said:

It has to be noted that in terms of this motion today that we are only dealing with the Canada Elections Act and the Parliament of Canada Act. What more important business could Parliament have than with those particular acts, which are the underpinnings of our democracy?

We need to ensure, at least on those particular pieces of legislation, that a slight majority government in Canada cannot impose its will in this place. It is one of the flaws in our democracy.

I wonder does the Liberal government members still believe those words they made back then.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Madam Speaker, I am glad to be working with my hon. colleague yet again. There is one point he made that I think is incredibly important. I agree that this incredibly important legislation, which is why I am pleased to be here today to work with members on both sides of the House to get the bill to committee so that the committee can do the important work that needs to be done, to ask those questions of witnesses and experts to ensure that we get this legislation right.

More than half of what is in this legislation has already been studied by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. It has already been agreed to by the committee. It is based on recommendations made by the former CEO of Elections Canada, which were agreed to by the procedure and House affairs committee. I have had the wonderful opportunity to work with them to bring this legislation forward so that we can do good things for democracy, good things for Canadians, and ensure that we expand the franchise to as many Canadians as we can who have the inherent right to vote.

I look forward to working with my colleague from Banff—Airdrie, who is vice-chair of that committee, and with members on both sides of the House so that we can get this done and improve elections legislation here in Canada.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madam Speaker, so that Canadians can understand what is going on here, the Liberals have proposed what they call “generational changes” to our election laws, a whole sweeping 350-page omnibus bill. In the last Parliament, Liberals moved a motion that when it comes to election bills, Parliament should never force them through with the use of time allocation as the previous government did.

Liberal members from Toronto—St. Paul's, Charlottetown, Cape Breton—Canso, Saint-Laurent, Charlotteville, Bourassa, Malpeque, Sydney—Victoria, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, Wascana, Labrador, Winnipeg North, Beauséjour, Cardigan, Scarborough—Guildwood, Vancouver Quadra, Halifax West, Lac-Saint-Louis, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, and the Prime Minister himself voted that Parliament should never change our election laws if the government uses the procedure of time allocation to shut down debate in Parliament.

This is exactly what the Liberals are doing now. I am confused by what the minister just said, because today we gave the Liberal government a proposal that would have avoided this. It would have allowed proper study at committee and allowed Canadians to have their say on a bill that belongs to them, not to her or her government. The Liberals did not even have the decency to respond to the proposal. We suggested the number of hours at committee, the tour that we could do across the country, the study at committee, and the passage of the bill in time for Elections Canada to do its work on behalf of all Canadians. What did the Liberals do? They said nothing and then moved time allocation, which they promised in the last campaign not to do.

If this is not hypocrisy, I do not know what is. The Liberals promised not to do this; they all campaigned on not doing this. My friend did not campaign in the last election by saying that she would do exactly what Stephen Harper did. She did not campaign by saying that when it were to their benefit, they would shut down debate in Parliament. It is not for them to decide. These laws do not belong to the Government of Canada; they belong to all Canadians.

Let Parliament do its job. Pick up our proposal, say yes, say no, say something, and let us get to work on behalf of all Canadians.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, that is exactly what I want us to do. Let us get to work on this legislation and send it to committee so we can do the work that Canadians sent us here to do. In fact, the committee has done great work already, which is evident in this legislation. I have had great working opportunities with the member's colleague from Hamilton Centre, who put a lot of work into this on behalf of the New Democratic Party on the recommendations that were put forward. More than 30 hours were spent at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs studying more than half of what is in this legislation. Over 85% of the recommendations from the CEO of Elections Canada are contained in this legislation. This is good legislation that I look forward to debating and having questions asked about it at committee, and to being there and testifying on behalf of the government to what is good about this legislation.

Furthermore, we absolutely are here to to make sure that we make changes to the previous unfair elections act so that Canadians have the right to vote. That is exactly what we are doing. I know that the members want to get this done and to work together. Therefore, let us work together to send this to committee to make sure we have witnesses, we hear the testimony needed, and that we get this done in time for the next election.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Speaker, there is a lot of dialogue currently going on here, and we have an NDP member who is very concerned. I am watching the member for Winnipeg North, and we have pages and pages of quotes of him where he is being extremely hypocritical. Let me just read this simple quote, and maybe the democratic institutions minister can explain to me how all of a sudden, when they switch from that end to over there, the government members forget everything they ever said before. This is something that was said back on June 5: “The government has invoked time allocation on this important budget bill, thereby limiting the amount of time members of Parliament will have to speak to it.”

Could my colleague explain why the Liberal majority today are using mechanisms to pass laws that not only abuse the rules but are also not in the best interest of Canadians? The minister is saying that they are going to take it from here, where there are 338 members of Parliament who get to debate legislation and be the voice of their constituents, down to a level where—being a chair—I recognize that 10 people are going to make the choices for all Canadians. Is that the right thing to do, and can she explain why this is not extremely hypocritical of the government?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, Canadians have seen pages and pages of why we need to change the so-called Fair Elections Act the previous government brought in. In fact, there were five sections dedicated in The Globe and Mail to begging the previous government not to bring forth that legislation. The former CEO of Elections Canada stated that he could not support something that disenfranchised so many Canadians. That is exactly why we need to work together to ensure that we are increasing democracy and Canadians' ability to vote, because it is their right in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That is exactly why we are working here in the House on behalf of Canadians, to ensure that we can continue to further democracy.

Furthermore, there have been over 30 hours of debate and discussions in the procedure and House affairs committee. This is the fourth day of debate in the House. Let us get it to committee. Let us continue to work hard on this, and let us make sure we do what is right for Canadians.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Madam Speaker, have there been four days of debate? Is the minister kidding the House? I cannot believe what I just heard from the minister. Thursday, May 10 had the sitting hours of a Wednesday, and then we had a Friday May 11. Yesterday was the only full day. Today is a Wednesday, so we will be lucky if we get an hour this afternoon to debate the bill. I just cannot understand the gall of the Liberals. The Liberals before 2015 and the Liberals now are just completely different stories.

I am sick of the Liberals blaming the opposition for their delays, when they let Bill C-33 languish at first reading for 18 months. They dumped this bill in the House of Commons on April 30 and then expect us to wear the blame for their delays. Will the minister please explain to the House why she delayed this, when the Liberals control the procedure and House affairs committee and have a clear majority in the House. Here, at the 11th hour, she is dumping the blame on the opposition for her government's fault.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, as I have said, over 50% of the bill has already been studied and agreed to by the procedure and House affairs committee. Over 30 hours was dedicated to much of what is in the bill. Furthermore, the majority of its contents is stuff that was recommended by the previous CEO of Elections Canada, which administers elections on behalf of Canadians and ensures that we have integrity in our electoral system.

We are absolutely committed to ensuring that we have the necessary debate, but let us get this to committee so we can ask those questions there and so all members of the House can have an opportunity to pose questions to me, to the CEO of Elections Canada, to officials, experts, and witnesses to make sure that we get this right. I look forward to hearing those reasonable, interesting, and exciting amendments to see how we can do what is best for Canadians before 2019.

[Luc Thériault, Québec debout, Montcalm, QC]

Madam Speaker, when this government first took office, it promised to reform the Canada Elections Act. However, what we have here are amendments that seek to modernize the act but that really only make minor changes to it.

The minister said that the bill covers 85% of the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations, but the real problem with this bill is what is being left out.

During our debates and hearings on the so-called electoral reform that the government promised to make, a renowned and respected former chief electoral officer, Jean-Pierre Kingsley, said that, in the interest of fairness, the government should immediately reinstate the per-vote subsidy.

The government claims to want to do things differently, so why then is that not included in the minister's bill?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, let us see what is in the bill. We are strengthening the powers of the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada. That is very important because it allows us to safeguard the integrity of elections in Canada. There are situations that call for more powers, and that is covered by this bill.

We are returning the ability of Canadians to vouch to establish their residency and to establish their identity. This is incredibly important. We know that Statistics Canada said there were 150,000 Canadians who were unable to vote in the last election because the Conservatives took that right away from them. We are looking at expanding the franchise to voters living abroad. We are also looking at ensuring that young people are engaged early on, establishing a youth voter registry for ages 14 to 17, so that they can be on the electoral list when they turn 18 and have that right to vote.

There is so much in this legislation that is good for democracy and good for Canadians. Let us work together, let us get this to committee, let us do the proper study, and let us get this in place for 2019.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Madam Speaker, a number of times in question period our leader has stood up and asked a very specific question about some pieces of this legislation. He was never given a clear answer, so I do not think it is acceptable to say that we will go to committee and get clear answers.

It is clear that the Liberals are trying to rig this bill in their favour, and they are rushing it through and hoping Canadians do not notice. I would like the minister to stand up and tell us how they can possibly justify rigging an elections act in their favour and have ministers able to go out and do pre-writ spending instead of having the same kind of rules for the government as we do for the opposition.

Please stand up and tell us why you have not been able to give a clear answer on that issue and why you are rigging this bill to suit the Liberal Party of Canada.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I want to remind the member to address questions to the Chair and not to the individual member.

The hon. minister.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think the member is confused because she is recalling Bill C-23 from the previous government. That is what happened when the Conservatives tried to rig the election in their favour. This bill is precisely trying to fix those abhorrent changes that were put forward with regard to democracy and to specifically ensure that we re-establish its integrity.

In the previous response I mentioned returning power to the commissioner of Elections Canada to compel testimony and lay charges, precisely because there were some members on the other side of the aisle who ended up in jail for their transgressions. Therefore, we are empowering the commissioner of Elections Canada to make sure he has the tools necessary to enforce the law and also to ensure that the law is strengthened so that we can uphold democracy here in this country.

[Celina Caesar-Chavannes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Development]

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the minister for this piece of legislation, which I think has at its heart the inclusion of all Canadians in our democratic process.

I have been listening to this debate over the last little while, and in particular yesterday, when individuals in the opposition were talking about how the voter information cards were fraught with error and how there would be fraudulent occurrences happening. Professors at Carleton University have said that there is very little evidence that there will be fraudulent or double voting. We have the Chief Electoral Officer saying that very rarely does it lead to criminal prosecution. Professors at the University of British Columbia are saying that it is blatantly manipulative to say that using those information cards will lead to increased voter fraud.

Therefore, I wonder if the minister could please speak to how this piece of legislation allows more Canadians who have often felt disenfranchised to now become included in our electoral system.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think it is incredibly important, when we are looking at this legislation, to look at the importance of the return of vouching and the return of the voter identification card. In fact, yesterday the acting Chief Electoral Officer, Stéphane Perrault, said at committee that one of the important things is that sometimes individuals living in households as couples do not have any identification that establishes their residency and that they can use a voter information card to establish residency along with their identification. This is particularly important, for example, for elderly women whose bills may not come in their name. It is important to ensure that they have the ability and the right to vote.

Furthermore, with regard to accessibility, for the first time we are putting forward the idea of an incentive for political parties and candidates to receive a reimbursement when it comes to providing accessible material. We heard of several issues from Elections Canada's disability committee with regard to voting and the polls. Seven of those eight recommendations are in this proposed legislation.

We look forward to hearing more about this, asking those tough questions at committee, and talking about this further.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Madam Speaker, I just want to say it is infuriating, it is disgusting, that we are debating time allocation on this bill.

I remember. I was here in 2014 when we had the debate on the unfair elections act. The Liberals were with us. We talked about how we were infuriated and appalled by the time allocation that the then-government put forward.

The member for Winnipeg North even said:

We now have the government bringing in time allocation on a bill that deals with Elections Canada. ...[W]e have the irresponsible nature of the Conservatives trying to ram it through and limit debate in second reading, which is disgraceful.

He said a few years ago that he thinks we should remember these things. I wonder if he feels that way again today.

The member for Malpeque said:

Mr. Speaker, invoking closure on this bill really is the height of hypocrisy.

I think we all feel that again today.

He went on:

How can the government invoke closure on a bill about democratic reform? This place is supposed to be about debate and good discussion. The minister is shutting that debate down and, I believe, putting democracy at risk.

Fast-forward to 2018, and we are living the exact same thing. How can the Liberals justify what they said in 2014 and during the election with what they are doing now? It is a disgrace.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, as has been repeated, and as I have said, the procedure and House affairs committee has spent over 30 hours looking at the recommendations from the CEO of Elections Canada.

This has been great conversation, great debate, and great dialogue, and it has factored into this proposed legislation. It has ideas and issues that have been factored in from all sides of this House. Over half of those recommendations have been agreed to by all parties in this House.

Let us work together. Let us keep working together. Let us do this for democracy. Let us get it to committee, where we can all ask those questions and have a robust dialogue and debate and get this done in time for the next election.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Speaker, the minister, quite correctly, points out that we have discussed the CEO's report and recommendations at committee.

However, let us be clear about this: this is a bill that is 300-odd pages long, and while a substantial portion of it is those recommendations, a very substantial portion is outside of those recommendations. The part, by page count, that is outside of the CEO's recommendations is far larger in scope than most bills.

This time allocation motion makes it impossible for us to discuss those aspects, those voluminous aspects, in appropriate detail. I think the minister would have to concede that.

Second, I think the minister would also have to concede that many of the CEO's recommendations were not dealt with by the committee. Indeed, we could have done so had we not had other items of government business that pushed them out of the way. The suggestion that this bill is essentially putting forward the CEO's recommendations is simply not accurate.

Finally, I would note that on a highly technical matter, as these recommendations tend to be, how they are put into effect is very important. Going through those technical recommendations is something that is legitimately the business of not only the committee but of this House.

Does the minister not agree with those assertions?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, that is why I think we need to get this bill to committee as soon as possible. It is to ensure that those questions are asked of witnesses, that those questions are asked of myself, of officials, of Elections Canada, so that we can have the proper scrutiny, so that we can get this done, so that we can ensure that we have restored the transgressions in democracy that were put forward by the previous government in Bill C-23 and ensure that we have integrity in our system in 2019.

That is exactly what we are going to do. I look forward to continuing this conversation and continuing this debate and dialogue with colleagues in this House and at committee. Let us get it there. Let us get it done for Canadians.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Madam Speaker, I thought I might just take a moment to express, on behalf of the many Canadians who were genuinely interested and are genuinely interested in real democratic reform in Canada, our disappointment in the government. Canadians thought they were electing a government that was genuinely interested in not only improving Canada's electoral laws, but in doing it the right way.

We have watched the government come into power. We are hearing today that Liberals want to get the legislation to committee. We had a whole special committee on electoral reform. It did great work. It actually came to a multi-party agreement, because the government did not have a majority on that committee. At the end of that whole process and after all these platitudes about how wonderful that committee was, the government threw out all that work while it was making a science of cash-for-access fundraising that heretofore had never been done in that way and to that extent.

Then the Liberals could not even bother to meet the bare minimum requirement of tabling a bill to undo the nefarious changes to the election laws carried out by the Harper government. They could not get it done on time. Now the Liberals have brought it here and are using time allocation, which was something they said they would never do.

Why do Canadians who want real electoral reform have to be so disappointed all the time?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Madam Speaker, there is so much in this legislation that we are proposing that I know New Democrats and the Liberals share. We want to get this done. Therefore, let us work together. Let us not play partisan games. Let us get this to committee to make sure that we do this for Canadians. That is exactly what we should be doing here.

There is good stuff for democracy here. There is good stuff for democratic reform. Let us do this and make sure that we get it done for 2019.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I heard the heckling when “partisan games” was mentioned. It is quite telling.

The unfair elections act was enacted by the Harper Conservatives back in 2014, and it was called the low point of the legislative agenda in that year. It was said to be a partisan attack on Canada's elections rules. It ignored fact and mocked expertise.

I think it is time to get Bill C-76 out of this place—as it is a highly partisan issue, as we heard from the heckling—and get it to committee. The heckling goes on, so we need to get the bill to the experts and hear from the Chief Electoral Officer about what should happen with the rule changes that we need so that we can ensure that the electoral rules actually reflect Canadian values. I think that is what is most important to ensure that we get more people out to vote and enable young people, indigenous people, and people who have disabilities to go out and exercise their democratic right in their democracy, which is here in our country of Canada.