Debates of June 19th, 2018

Bill C-71—Time Allocation Motion

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is quite clear this is the backdoor gun registry coming back. Under Bill C-71, if a firearms owner sells a firearm to another individual, he or she would have to call a registrar and that purchase would now be registered. Even though both individuals have a valid possession and acquisition licence and show that they are valid, they would still have to call the registrar to have that purchase registered.

It is quite clear from the research done on the old Liberal firearms registry that law-abiding citizens complied with it. I certainly did. However, at the same time, there was zero evidence it reduced crime. On the other hand, we have Bill C-75, where the Liberals would be making punishment for violent crimes and criminals more lenient, while at the same time, under Bill C-71, they would be punishing law-abiding citizens. In the Liberal world, it is far easier to punish law-abiding citizens because they obey the law and the criminals do not. Why this dichotomy? Why are criminals treated better than law-abiding citizens under the Liberal government?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the hon. member's question.

The issue of it being a registry or not was very thoroughly discussed in the parliamentary committee. I would note the member for Red Deer—Lacombe, a member of the Conservative Party, said in committee, “Everybody at this table agrees that this is not a registry.” That is very clear, on the record, in the committee. Indeed, the committee went a step further and it adopted an amendment. The amendment says:

For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to permit or require the registration of non-restricted firearms.

That is embedded in the law. That amendment was accepted unanimously in the parliamentary committee. It was proposed by a Conservative.

It is abundantly clear that this phony fiction from the Conservatives that this somehow amounts to a registry in any way, shape, or form is completely, utterly, and absolutely false.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for being here to talk about this important issue. I just want to share with him how disappointed I am that we are again seeing time allocation on a bill that is incredibly important to the people of North Island—Powell River. This is something I have received letters of concern around.

There is one concern I have been hearing a lot about and perhaps the minister could please share with this House how he is going to address it. Right now, with a PAL, if someone has a gun that is not working properly, he or she can take it to the gunsmith to be fixed. With this legislation, that is going to change. That causes a lot of concern. People in my riding are concerned about having a gun that is live, that has not discharged a bullet. They do not know how they are going to store it safely, and they are going to have to ask for the ability to take it to the gunsmith.

This is something I am really hoping to see change before this bill passes through the final stages. I would like the minister to share with this House how he is going to address this very important issue.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question, and the first part of the answer is that the transportation authorizations that are required under the legislation apply only to restricted and prohibited weapons. They do not apply to ordinary hunting rifles or other kinds of weapons that fall in the category of non-restricted. That is a fact.

The transportation requirements relate only to restricted and prohibited weapons. In the administration of that procedure, which will apply to the transportation of maybe 5% of firearms in total, the officials who will be in charge of the administration of the transportation authorizations, in fact, understand that service to customers is exceedingly important, that Canadians who will be operating under the terms of the legislation will be expecting that their requests for transportation authorizations will be dealt with in a conscientious and expeditious fashion. That is a reasonable expectation on the part of Canadians. The officials administering that provision under this law have an obligation to provide a high standard of service.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Employment]

Madam Speaker, as usual, the minister provides great insight behind the rationale for the bill and the execution of the bill.

I want to go back to a couple of the comments that have been made on the use of closure, and the NDP members, in particular, saying that they have not had enough time to debate this. I share with the House that this is my 18th June here. I have been here in June as a member of the government and as a member of the opposition. This is typical of what happens every June.

I know we have members in our caucus who say that what the opposition is doing is terrible, that the opposition is tying us up and not letting us get our legislation through. We did the same thing when we were in opposition. I know that my colleague has spent more Junes here than I have.

As my colleague indicated, we ran on a platform. This was central to our platform, to rationalize gun legislation in this country. We are simply making sure that this is done. As well, there were three amendments accepted. We never saw amendments accepted under the previous Conservative government. Maybe the minister could reflect on the difference between the processing of legislation now compared to previously under the Conservatives, with their lack of consultation and their lack of accepting any amendments.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, this takes me back to the work of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security which did a very conscientious job in looking at this legislation. Obviously, as members have reflected in the House today, this is a subject that provokes strong emotions on one side of the case or the other side of the case and it is perfectly legitimate and proper that those varying perspectives be brought to the floor of the House of Commons and brought to the standing committee for proper debate and discussion.

The discussion at committee was very thorough. There were five meetings to hear evidence and receive briefs. Twenty-six witnesses were called. The committee then went into clause-by-clause consideration and spent three more days dealing with Bill C-71 clause by clause. In the course of that, the committee adopted three very useful amendments. One enhances the process of background checks. One deals with the authorizations that are required with respect to the verification of licences on purchases. That one, incidentally, came from the NDP and it was a very useful amendment to expedite that process.

The committee did its work. It studied the bill and reflected on what needed to be improved. It made those improvements and we are now at report stage and soon at third reading.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Madam Speaker, I beg to differ with the hon. minister. We have talked about the backdoor registry and he has talked about that they made promises. We heard the member from the Atlantic coast that there was not going to be any registry, but this is from the actual legislation which says:

provide the Quebec Minister with a copy of all records that were in the Canadian Firearms Registry on April 3, 2015 and that relate to the firearms registered, as at that day, as non-restricted firearms,

This is where the Liberals are actually giving a copy of what was supposed to have been destroyed. It was only preserved for one reason and that was for an access to information request from a man named Bill Clennett. The only reason that copy should still exist today is for that fulfillment, that purpose alone. The minister, through legislation, is making that copy available to the Quebec government. It should have been destroyed. He knows that. He knows that this is wrong, yet he is still bringing the legislation forward. I think he needs to back down and pull this out of the legislation. Honour what your promises were to the Canadian public that the registry was supposed to not be resurrected.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

I would remind the member that all questions are to be addressed through the chair.

The hon. minister, please.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, the commitment that was made in our platform was loud and clear that there would be no federal long-gun registry and there is none.

The provision in the legislation that the hon. gentleman is referring to results from a legal and constitutional quagmire that was created by the previous government in the way that it dealt with instructions that came to the previous government from the Information Commissioner. The Conservatives were into a knock-down, drag-out fight with the Information Commissioner about the way that they were handling the long-gun registry long before the election and long before our government came into place.

We were stuck with a mess that we inherited from that crowd and we entered into negotiations with the Information Commissioner to stop the litigation, to stop the constitutional dispute, and to put the law of the country back on an even keel. We are doing that through this legislation, but we are not, I repeat, we are not, creating a federal long-gun registry.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will focus my remarks on the time allocation motion, even though we should be spending a lot more time on the bill. The irony is that the Liberals have just told us that the 338 members of the House will collectively have 300 minutes to debate the bill. That is less than the amount of time I just spent on the lead-up to my question.

A time allocation motion should demonstrate that there is a certain urgency. However, we have a government that has had a rather thin legislative agenda since coming to power.

What is the urgency? Why does the government now want to move so quickly?

Unless I am mistaken, when we return from the summer recess we will not be going into an election. We will still have time to debate such important and sensitive bills as the firearms bill.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, again, let me repeat the record of what the House has gone through with respect to Bill C-71. The bill got six hours of debate at second reading. It was then referred to the standing committee. The standing committee held five full meetings to receive evidence and hear witnesses; the members in fact heard 26 witnesses. Then they went into clause-by-clause for three further meetings, and they adopted three amendments to the legislation.

Now the bill comes back to the House for report stage and third reading. It was debated for several hours last night. That debate will now go on for five more hours at report stage. It will then go on for five more hours at third reading. That will result in a very ample opportunity for members to participate in the discussion and put their views on the record. The issues before Parliament require that we debate and discuss things, but they also require that at some point we take a decision and vote.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Speaker, my colleague across the aisle continues to be as slick as used oil on this issue. The reality is that we have to register every sale, register every firearm, register the person who is purchasing, register the PAL number, and the information has to be kept for 20 years. That is a registry.

The second issue that I want to bring up is that the member keeps talking about the extensive consultation the Liberals have done. That is actually not true. The Assembly of First Nations representatives have said that, first of all, they were not consulted; second, this legislation violates their treaty rights; and third, they will see the government in court.

As well, there is opposition from Yukon. People have said, in their briefing, that unlike the provinces, Yukon has only one member of Parliament, which leads to situations where the input of northerners is often an afterthought and is not taken into account. This is the case with this piece of firearms legislation. Representatives from the Yukon Fish and Game Association said the same thing. They cannot get through to their member of Parliament. He will not represent them, and they have not had an opportunity to speak to the government about this.

Why does the member not just admit that the Liberals have failed Canadians completely on this? They have failed to consult, and they do not really care.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, I cannot possibly admit that because it is false.

First, on the question of the consultation, that was gone through prior to the legislation, before our platform was put together, during the course of the election, after the election, in the preparation of the legislation, and so forth. That information was requested some weeks ago in an Order Paper question. That question has been answered, and all the details of the consultation are now on the public record in response to the Order Paper question.

Second, I would underscore the fact that the content of Bill C-71 was embodied in specific promises in our election campaign. Those promises were thoroughly debated over the course of the longest election campaign in Canadian history. In fact, Canadians had an opportunity to vote on the content, and the result of that vote was clear.

Third, there were two further key channels for consultation. One was the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee, which examined the content of what would become Bill C-71. I would also note that a few months ago we convened here in Ottawa a national guns and gangs summit, which dealt with a number of issues, including firearms. It was well attended, including by members of the opposition and almost all of the major organizations that deal with firearms, and we had a very good discussion in the course of that summit meeting.

Therefore, there were, indeed, extensive consultations.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Madam Speaker, obviously my colleague confuses a registry with good common practices in business.

With respect to time allocation, in terms of efficiency, there is a misunderstanding of what it is to be efficient. Maybe the minister could inform Canadians and this chamber of the level of preparation, before getting to this piece of legislation, with the different stakeholders to show Canadians how well prepared this piece is to answer their needs.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, the purpose of this legislation is to keep Canadians safe; to add, in a measurable way, to public safety; to assist the police in pursuing guns that are involved in a crime or crimes that involve guns; and to make sure that, in the process of doing that, we are treating law-abiding gun owners across the country in a fair and reasonable manner.

The legislation involves strengthening background checks, improving the process for licence verification, requiring standard business record-keeping across the country, making sure that classifications are done in a professional and consistent manner, and ensuring that unusual movements of restricted and prohibited weapons require a transportation authorization. Those measures, taken together, will make an important contribution to public safety.

We have the endorsement of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and police forces across the country. We also have comments from a number of people representing fishing and gaming organizations. They, too, see the proposed legislation, although not unanimously, as reasonable measures.

We have tried to strike here a reasonable balance that is fair and effective for all concerned.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am struck by the fact that the minister, usually one of the most bombastic ministers in the House, combative almost every single day here, is obviously very uncomfortable when it comes to the topic of time allocation. I wondered why. I went back and looked at some of what he had to say previously in the House. I looked back to April 30, 2012, when he talked about our government at the time. He said, “They have used closure to ram through their legislation more times in four or five months than most majority governments used in four or five years.” Now, this is the third time in three weeks that he has used time allocation or given notice of time allocation. I think that might be a record.

On May 2, 2013, he said this:

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the timing issue here, obviously it is unfortunate when debate in the House is curtailed by the use of time allocation or closure. That impinges upon the democratic right of members of Parliament to adequately consider matters that are before the House.

I wonder if the minister stands by his own words.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, what the member has to take into account in determining whether time allocation is appropriate in any set of circumstances is in fact how much time is being allotted to the consideration of the measure before the House. In this case, at second reading, there were six full hours of debate. In the committee, there were five full meetings to receive evidence and hear witnesses, and 26 witnesses appeared in the process of those hearings. Then there were three more meetings to deal with clause-by-clause, and that brings us to this point.

There were several hours of debate last night at report stage. Going forward, there will be five more hours at report stage, and after that, five more hours to deal with third reading. Altogether, that gives ample time for consideration.

When we compare those numbers to a lot of other pieces of legislation that go through Parliament, it is obvious that this topic is getting a very thorough airing.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have been in the House for 10 Junes now, not as many as my hon. colleagues have mentioned, but I have seen governments use time allocation. I would point out that time allocation does have a purpose in the House, but I want to start from the principle that citizens of this country send us here to this chamber to scrutinize legislation and to debate. That is the essence of democracy. The government can introduce legislation, and it will ultimately win the vote, but in the meantime it is our job as opposition to scrutinize, discuss, and debate to bring to bear other perspectives on the legislation. Therefore, I think time allocation ought to be used sparingly, and only when it is clear that the opposition is perhaps misusing that power and trying to be deleterious and hold up the government, which is not the case with this legislation. The previous government used time allocation some 100 times, and the current Liberal government is approaching 50 times of using time allocation, which does nothing but limit debate in the House.

On the proposed legislation, I personally support solid, reasonable gun restrictions in this country. It is important that we have reasonable restrictions, and it keeps our communities safe. However, I was talking to a constituent last week, Tom Chan, who is a lawful gun owner. His question to me was whether this legislation would preserve the interests of lawful gun owners or unduly restrict their rights.

Does the hon. member think that this legislation will be effective in keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals and those who would misuse them?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Speaker, let me repeat that we have worked very hard to try to ensure that this legislation gets ample time in committee and in the House, and I believe that, on balance, we have achieved that.

In terms of the substance of his question at the end of whether this will contribute to public safety, yes, I believe it will, in a number of ways, for example in improving background checks. I might say that on that topic, there appears to be almost universal support on both sides of the chamber. The idea of background checks, as I think he would remember, was raised in the House a long time ago by James Moore, who was a Conservative member of Parliament. He made a very strong case for enhancing background checks, and now we are doing, in effect, what Mr. Moore, the former Conservative MP, proposed.

By enhancing background checks, we will collectively, as a society, do a better job of keeping firearms out of the hands of people who have a reputation for violence, have criminal records, or are otherwise considered to be a danger to society, including threatening behaviour on the Internet. Again, I would note that as a result of amendments proposed in the standing committee, the provisions around background checks have, in fact, been enhanced and strengthened. One of the critical elements in protecting society is to make sure background checks work. The—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

Unfortunately, time is up.

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House. Shall I dispense?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

[Chair read text of motion to House]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.