Debates of May 15th, 2019

Justice

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister may claim that the case is closed, but the facts speak for themselves.

The Prime Minister has done everything he can to hide the truth. He withheld documents Norman's defence counsel needed to make its case. A court order had to be issued. He also knew full well that code words were being used to conceal Vice-Admiral Norman's identity and get around access to information requests.

Despite the ample evidence provided to him and to Canadians, the Prime Minister is still refusing to apologize to Vice-Admiral Norman and his family. Why?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction]

Mr. Speaker, our government has been very willing to and has acknowledged the dedicated service of Vice-Admiral Norman. In fact, it was the defence minister who first expressed regret for the experience of Vice-Admiral Norman.

Let me be very clear. This was an investigation conducted entirely independently by the RCMP without any government involvement or interference. All decisions with respect to the prosecution were made by the director of public prosecutions, entirely independent of any government influence. In fact, in this case, the director of public prosecutions' authority came from the Ontario provincial—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, when we asked the Prime Minister to apologize to Vice-Admiral Norman, he refused to do so. It is possible that he does not want to apologize because he does not think he needs to, but it is also possible that he is disappointed because his plan to destroy Vice-Admiral Norman did not work out.

One way or another, the Prime Minister will have to be accountable. Why not show goodwill and apologize to Vice-Admiral Norman immediately?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction]

Mr. Speaker, the obligation of the government is to support the independent work of the RCMP and not to engage in any interference in its independent investigations. That took place in this case. The RCMP's investigations were entirely independent of government. The decisions of the Public Prosecution Service were equally independent of any influence of government.

Our responsibility is to ensure that the integrity of the judicial process is maintained. In this case, it absolutely was.

The Environment

[Jagmeet Singh, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal government gave Loblaws $12 million, claiming that the money would help combat climate change. The Liberals then exempted new oil sands development projects from the environmental assessment process. This week, they moved a motion on the climate emergency, but it does not contain any measures.

When will the government understand that empty rhetoric is not enough to address the greatest crisis we have ever faced?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Mr. Speaker, it is clear that there is a climate emergency, and it is evident across Canada. People, families and homes in the national capital region have been affected by floods. We have a plan.

I would like to know what the NDP's plan is, since it is not very clear.

We have a plan for the economy and the environment. The NDP is flip-flopping. It supported LNG Canada, but now it does not. There are 10,000 jobs on the line.

We have a plan to combat climate change and create jobs. We have created one million jobs, and we are very proud of—

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. member for Burnaby South.

[Jagmeet Singh, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the Liberals gave $12 million to Loblaws for fridges and then gave their billionaire buddies a go to deny workers a living wage. Liberals talk about climate emergency but exempt oil sands projects from environmental reviews. Young workers face not only an increasingly perilous planet but also a future of increasingly precarious work.

Why can the Liberal government not understand that its approach is failing? Why will Liberals not join the New Democrats and fight climate change in a way that leaves no worker and no community behind?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Mr. Speaker, it seems that the leader has a plan to leave 10,000 workers behind, because he has flip-flopped on a project that was approved by an NDP government in B.C. that is all in on climate change.

We all need to come together on climate change. That is why we brought in a motion for a climate emergency. I certainly hope everyone in the House will support it and that they will support serious climate action, support creating good jobs and support making life more affordable, because that is exactly what we are doing.

Public Services and Procurement

[Jagmeet Singh, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a horrible response on YouTube.

After Conservatives bought the Phoenix pay system from IBM, they signed a contract for help that was valued at just under $6 million. Eight years later, it has ballooned to almost $400 million. The contract has been changed 46 times. Only Liberals and Conservatives working together could mess it up so badly. This is great news for IBM, but bad news for taxpayers.

Instead of giving millions to private companies, why not use public workers under fair contracts to finally fix this mess?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Accessibility]

Mr. Speaker, we continue to act with laser focus on addressing the Phoenix pay system. We know how completely unacceptable it is that public servants still continue to not be paid.

IBM is a partner in this, and we need IBM to continue along on this journey with us. We are holding IBM to account. In addition, contractual amendments are just part of any relationship with an ongoing partner.

I can assure everyone that this problem is being fixed. We are moving on. We have reduced the queue by almost 40% in one year. We are delivering for Canadians.

[Jagmeet Singh, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, people are having trouble accessing the services they need, as the Liberals put rich companies first. Meanwhile, public servants are not being paid because of the Phoenix pay system, and the Liberals have handed over another $385 million to IBM for a program that does not work.

Instead of putting big business first, when will the Liberals start making people a priority?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Accessibility]

Mr. Speaker, we are working very hard to stabilize the Phoenix pay system. The backlog dropped by 40% last year. We are transitioning to our new system and working with the unions to implement it in the public sector.

We assure the member that it is a priority for our government. People deserve to be paid.

Justice

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, this House of Commons agreed unanimously and stood and thanked Vice-Admiral Mark Norman for his years of service to this country, as well as apologized for his treatment over the past three and a half years.

It was reported by some media this morning that unfortunately the Prime Minister was not present in the House for that apology, and I am wondering if he would like to take the opportunity now to apologize himself for the treatment of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.

[The Speaker, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The hon. member is an experienced member and will know that members are not permitted to draw attention to the presence or absence of a member in the House

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Mr. Speaker, I respect the member opposite for that question and also for raising that unanimous consent motion in this House. When it is endorsed by this House, it is endorsed by every member of this House. That is the first point.

The second point, and it needs to be restated, is that there are three important factors here. The people who decide to lay charges are the independent RCMP officers, whom we respect and I hope all members respect.

The second point is that the people who decide to lay charges are the independent director of public prosecutions, and the people who decide to withdraw charges are also the independent DPP.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the people who decided to withhold the documents from the defence of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman were this government, plain and simple.

It was only because of an abuse of process motion brought forward by the Vice-Admiral that we started to get a look at the documents that clearly showed that there was political interference in this matter, but we only got to see it after six months of fighting in court. Yes, the court had to order the release of these documents because the government said that it would not release them.

Will the government apologize to Vice-Admiral Mark Norman?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Mr. Speaker, I am going to speak to everyone in this House, but especially to that lawyer opposite, who shares some of the same background as I do as Fox scholars in Britain, and what we learned when we were learning and training in Britain is to respect court processes.

The way it works on an O'Connor application for third party records is that the documents are identified, and then if there are claims of privilege, the issue goes to the court. Then the court goes into the claims of privilege, ascertains whether they are valid or not, and makes a decision. That is how one respects the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary.

That is exactly what we did in this case and what we do in every case.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, let's talk about respect for the judicial process in this case. Twice the Prime Minister said that Vice-Admiral Norman would end up in court, even before charges were brought. That was the first mistake.

The second was that the Prime Minister's Office withheld as much information as possible until a court ordered it to disclose this information, which was needed for the accused to make full answer and defence. That is political interference.

Will the Liberal government and its Prime Minister do what all Canadians want and issue a genuine, formal apology to Vice-Admiral Norman?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Mr. Speaker, there are three things I want to say.

First, the decision to conduct an investigation is made by the RCMP, which is independent. Second, the decision to lay charges and take someone to court is made by the director of public prosecutions, who is independent. Third, the decision to withdraw a charge is made by the the director of public prosecutions, who is independent.

Perhaps these words from the director will reassure members. She said, and I quote:

No other factors were considered in this decision, nor was there any contact or influence from outside the PPSC, including political influence in either the initial decision to prosecute or the decision to stay the charge today.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one of the most comical things the Prime Minister ever said was that he did not need a political lieutenant because he is a general. What a general, indeed.

Let us talk about a real soldier, an honourable soldier: Vice-Admiral Norman. Unlike some, he is devoted to his career. Unlike some, this is a man who commands respect.

Could the Prime Minister act like a statesman and apologize?

Could he try bringing Canadians together instead of playing general?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Mr. Speaker, we have a lot of respect for Mr. Norman and for any man or woman who works for Canada, such as police officers or members of the RCMP.

There was no political interference in this file. That would be impossible because, in this instance, the DPP was working on behalf of the Attorney General of Ontario.

If hon. members have any questions they can ask Ms. Mulroney.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Speaker, just because one did not get away with the money does not mean that one is not guilty of trying to rob the bank.

The Prime Minister refuses to apologize for the disgraceful way Vice-Admiral Mark Norman and his family have been treated. We know the Prime Minister alerted the RCMP to investigate, refused to provide documents and tampered with witnesses. He even had his lawyers ask the public prosecutor to engineer the issues at stake in his favour.

When will the Prime Minister admit that what he did was wrong and apologize to Vice-Admiral Mark Norman?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada and to the Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Mr. Speaker, allow me to walk the member opposite through this process.

A demand is made for third-party records; 144,000 are identified. Then we cull that group to see which ones are responsive; 8,000 are then deemed responsive. Then claims of cabinet confidence are made, not by members of the political staff but by civil servants in this country, and when those claims of privilege are made, the court then verifies if they are valid or invalid.

This happens every day in litigation around this country. There is nothing different in this case from any other. However, the most important thing that did not happen is that there was never a decision by a political person to interfere in this matter or any other matter.