Debates of May 15th, 2019

Department of National Defence—Main Estimates, 2019-20

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I was made aware of the investigation. A decision was made by the chief of defence staff, and I supported that decision.

[The Assistant Deputy Chair, Liberal, Anthony Rota]

Before we go any further, I want to remind the hon. member to address her questions through the Chair, not directly to the minister.

The hon. member for Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, did the minister take notes, and is it customary for a chief of defence staff, the Minister of National Defence and the two most senior staff of the Prime Minister's Office not to take notes at a meeting to discuss a serious issue?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, when it comes to important things like this, I want to make it absolutely clear, as has been stated, that the process has been completely independent from the investigation all the way through the judicial process, and that is exactly what has happened here.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the question was this. Since the minister was briefed, did he take notes at that briefing with the chief of the defence staff, Katie Telford and Gerry Butts on the RCMP investigation?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I was briefed on this while I was in Vancouver, through a phone call with the deputy minister at the time and the chief of the defence staff. I was made aware of the investigation, and I supported the chief of the defence staff's decision.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, under what authority were two unelected, partisan staffers, who are not in the chain of command, briefed on this matter?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I do not understand the question that the member is asking.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the minister said that all military personnel must be free from real or perceived partisanship. Therefore, my question is this. How, on the matter of Vice-Admiral Norman's RCMP investigation, were two unelected, partisan staffers from the Prime Minister's Office, who are not in the chain of command, involved in this conversation?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, as I stated, when it came to the investigation, I was briefed through a phone call while I was in Vancouver by the chief of the defence staff and the deputy minister at the time. I can only talk about what my actions were in this case. I believe the member is asking when I was briefed, and I have answered that question.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the minister, I believe, is indicating that he has no responsibility for the other people and the authority with which other people are engaged in a call of this nature of a serious matter. I would like to ask him one more time. If a random person from the street or someone from some other country were involved on this call, would it not be his responsibility to ensure why they were?

The question is this. Under what authority were two unelected, partisan staff members on a call about Vice-Admiral Norman's RCMP investigation?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, first of all, the entire process has been independent. As I stated, I was on a call with the chief of the defence staff and the deputy minister directly to me while I was in Vancouver. Those were the three people who were actually on that call.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, on January 9, 2017, the chief of the defence staff spoke with the Prime Minister on the matter of Vice-Admiral Norman's investigation. Was the minister also on this call?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I was not on that call.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, as the chief of the defence staff reports to the minister, did the chief of the defence staff brief the minister after the call with the Prime Minister?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I was informed, as I stated, through a phone call, of the investigation that had started. The decision was made by the chief of the defence staff at that time, which I supported, and the deputy minister was on that same call.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, in what capacity was the deputy minister on that call, recognizing that the minister has already told us that the deputy minister does not have administrative control over military personnel?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, the former deputy minister was on that call. In national defence, we work together. I, as the minister, work very closely with the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff. That is how we work, and we have been working extremely well together in making sure that we serve the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, again, under what authority was the former deputy minister involved, considering that this was a disciplinary matter around the senior military official, for which the former deputy minister had no administrative control?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, in national defence, the minister of national defence works very closely with the deputy minister and with the chief of the defence staff. When it comes to the decisions that need to be made, we work together.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, did the minister or the CDS consult the judge advocate general prior to the suspension of Admiral Norman on January 13, 2017?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, if the member wants to play it like a lawyer, she will have to talk to the other person whom she is asking the question about. I am happy to answer the question about me. As I stated, I received a phone call while I was in Vancouver from the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff to inform me of the investigation and the decision.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, was it the minister's decision to deny financial legal assistance to Admiral Norman on this matter?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, as I stated before, the decision for this was made by the former deputy minister, as the criteria were not met. Now the criteria have changed, and I have authorized the reimbursement.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chair, did the reason given, stating that Admiral Norman was guilty and that is why he was not entitled to financial assistance, not prejudice his presumption of innocence before his day in court?