House of Commons Hansard #423 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was marijuana.
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question.
I will simply respond by saying that we are in a rush to work on solving a problem that the Liberals created during this Parliament. That is pretty rich. The way they went about legalizing marijuana led to all these consequences. Now we have to rush through other things to fix a problem that the Liberals created. October 21 cannot come soon enough.
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Madam Speaker, we know that when people are charged and convicted of simple possession of marijuana, it creates barriers for them to access housing, employment, and even to volunteer in the community. The goal here is to try to create a pathway for them to be able to move forward. The pathway being proposed by the Liberal government would simply give people a break, but not give them a break permanently. It would not expunge the records, which is what we need for these people to be treated fairly.
Today people can legally access marijuana, so why would people living with a criminal record get their record suspended and have to live in fear that another government could come in and reverse that decision, which would make their record available to the public and again become a problem in their lives? It simply makes sense for the government to expunge all the records. It has made marijuana possession legal.
We clearly hear that my colleague does not agree with the Liberal decision to legalize possession of small amounts of marijuana. The government decided that Canadians should be allowed to access and consume marijuana. Now that they are allowed to do that, would it not make sense for the government to expunge the records and move Canadians forward? If they were in government, would they work to completely erase the records that have been suspended and reinstate those records?
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question.
The key word here is “suspension”. Does suspension mean anything in today's world? Canadians convicted of simple possession of marijuana will now have the word “suspension” stamped on their record. When they try to cross the border, the customs officer could still refuse them entry, since they got a criminal record suspension for possession of marijuana, which implies that they consumed marijuana.
Furthermore, if a person wants to work in another country, if they want to do business there or something, being able to prove that their criminal record was suspended is meaningless. It is not a pardon, and it is not an expungement.
Unfortunately, this is just an election gimmick to try to get an extra 300,000 or 400,000 votes.
The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes
It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, Foreign Affairs; the hon. member for Saskatoon West, Transport; the hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Justice.
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak to Bill C-93. The bill has come forth as a result of the government's lack of foresight in its hurried quest to legalize marijuana. The bill was so rushed to meet the Prime Minister's self-imposed political deadline that it fails to address a host of concerns raised by municipalities, law enforcement officials, health care professionals and stakeholders who testified at committee and reached out to the government.
As issues arise with recreational marijuana going forward, there has to be due diligence and proper steps taken to protect Canadians, and because of that, I will be supporting this legislation very cautiously.
The Liberals have left consequential legislation to the final weeks of our Parliament. They have failed to consult and to listen to those key stakeholders, including law enforcement.
This has been a theme of the Liberals. They make great promises and then drag their feet and wait until the eleventh hour to implement them. In a lot of ways it shows disregard for the stakeholders to whom they made those promises originally. We have seen this time and time again.
I have heard questions by government members to my colleagues on why we are concerned that they are raising this issue at the eleventh hour of this session of Parliament. I would like to explain it to them in a context that I have used to explain things to my young children, as I do at storytime. I will reference the story of The Tortoise and the Hare.
The Liberals were hare-like when they began. They got off to a loud start with their promises. They promised balanced budgets and sunny ways. They were going to do government differently and were ridiculing their opponents and arrogantly spending Canadians' money on vacations and impressing American celebrities on Twitter. Like the hare, the Liberals figured they were well ahead and decided to take a nap before the race was over.
The Liberals have been in nap mode for several years and their consecutive deficits and their dropping of the ball on important legislation are proof of this.
In the story, the hare eventually wakes up from his nap to find that his opponent had already crossed the finish line while he was sleeping. That is exactly what we have seen here.
It took the explosion of the SNC-Lavalin and Vice-Admiral Mark Norman scandals during the Liberal government's spring of scandal to finally wake them up. Now that the Liberals have finally woken up, it is a mad scramble to the finish, moving legislation that should have happened years ago in some cases.
Certainly, having waited this long, they should have been listening to those stakeholders along the way. However, here we are without having proper debate and proper consultation with stakeholders and we are moving toward the House sitting late for many weeks before the end of session, which has been the custom in this place.
It is a shame that the Liberals did not take that lesson from the tortoise and the hare. They might have been more successful over the years if they had worked slowly and steadily, instead of carelessly leaving Canada with massive debt to pay off.
In the wake of legalization, many questions remain. It is clear that the government was hasty in its roll out because of its rush to roll up. Many groups, including law enforcement, were concerned about the increase in drug-impaired driving after legalization. The Liberals assured the public there would not be an increase in drug-impaired driving, but if there were, they would equip our police forces to deal with it and properly enforce the law and protect the public. That is not the case.
The roadside marijuana testing devices that the Liberals hastily approved in time for last year's legalization roll out is giving out regular false positives. It is a failure right out of Seinfeld.
During testing, this device was giving false positives for subjects who had eaten a poppy seed bagel. People can have their favourite poppy seed bagel at the diner with friends, or a poppy seed lemon loaf at the iconic Canadian brand Tim Hortons, but all of a sudden for that indulgence a person can test positive for opiates in the saliva test and then again when the confirmatory urine test is done.
If people indulge in their breakfast treats or their afternoon snacks and they get pulled over by police, they will be arrested and taken to the station. Then they will be charged with driving impaired, all for having a bagel or a slice of lemon loaf with their Tim's coffee.
Canada's Conservatives understand that Canadians should not be unfairly burdened by a criminal record for something that is no longer illegal. I understand the government wanting to create a process for pardons. What I do not understand is the attitude when the situation is inverse. That being said, that was carried out while it was perfectly legal and being deemed illegal was the consequences of that.
In its recent firearms legislation, the government has moved to reclassify certain rifles as prohibited, which means over 10,000 legally bought and owned rifles will be reclassified for no reason in particular. That has the potential to criminalize the owners of these rifles if they do not comply with the new ownership requirements of a prohibited firearm. This law would be applied retroactively, which means someone could be jailed for up to 10 years for something that would be perfectly legal and perfectly legitimate, as licenced and law-abiding firearms owners in Canada know.
Imagine a government that is giving pardons for actions that were crimes when they were committed, but are now legal. It is criminalizing something that was legal when it was done; a classic Liberal strategy.
We proposed several amendments to the legislation at committee in an effort to strengthen the legislation and empower law enforcement and the Parole Board, but the Liberals stood opposed to those common sense suggestions and amendments.
We put forward an amendment that would have given the Parole Board the power to make the necessary inquiries to determine the applicant's conduct since the date of conviction. In my meetings with representative of Canadian police unions, their concern with the legislation was that it was an introductory or gateway offence and not an isolated incident of someone being arrested for simple possession and a one-time mistake. However, this amendment was to empower the Parole Board, which is the expert in the field, to provide it with as much information as possible. Evidence-based decision making is what we are advocating for and the Liberals are steadfastly against that.
In addition to that, we put forth an amendment that would restore the Parole Board's power to take a look at ordering the record suspension to see if that would bring the administration of justice into disrepute. The Canadian Police Association, as I said, had suggested these amendments and wanted the Parole Board to have that flexibility, that discretion, the ability to conduct investigations and ensure that the small number of applications seen from habitual offenders were being properly vetted. This would prevent individuals taking advantage of a process in a way it was not intended to be.
We have grave concerns that the amendments were not given serious consideration. We have concerns that the time was not taken to review it, and now it is being hastily imposed. The government's failure to recognize these amendments is an affirmation about the haste with which it has gone about this legislation and, frankly, with which it has carried out its mandate.
I will be cautiously supporting this interest. However, Canadians can count on a Conservative government this October to correct this Liberal failure along with many others.
Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Madam Speaker, when I was in opposition and Stephen Harper was the prime minister, fairly strong words came down from the PMO. If an opposition member were to propose an amendment, to not allow it to see the light of day. That has changed from the time of Stephen Harper to the current Prime Minister. We have a prime minister who encourages members of Parliament of all political stripes to look at ways in which legislation can be improved. Whether it is this legislation, or Bill C-45 or many other pieces of legislation, we have seen ministers respond to the presentations being made and listen to members on all sides of the standing committees.
Would the member not agree that this is a much better attitude toward standing committees than Stephen Harper ever had?
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Madam Speaker, a concept has been put forward by the member opposite, but certainly not the practice that is currently in place. We have seen time and again the heavy hand of the PMO and the Liberal members pressing down on committees. We need look no further than the interference by the PMO in the SNC-Lavalin scandal. We need look no further than the government's efforts on all things when it comes to due process.
While the concept that the member opposite proposes is an interesting one, we are certainly not seeing anything of that from the Prime Minister.
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Madam Speaker, we know the Conservatives did not support the legalization of marijuana. However, the NDP is in support of looking for ways to ensure the records of people who were arrested for simple possession of marijuana in the past, when it was illegal to consume, get expunged so they can move forward, like everybody else in society, and there is fairness.
Regardless of the position of the Conservative Party, not supporting the legalization of marijuana, at this point in time, the majority of Canadians would like records expunged, not just suspended.
My colleague said a couple of things in his speech, on which I would like to find out more. Now that it is legal in society, if one neighbour consumes legally today and another neighbour was charged in the past and carries a criminal record that could affect him or her getting employment, or housing or is even an obstacle to volunteering in the community, does he support expungement at this point?
The member also said something that I would like him to clarify. He said that if the Conservatives were to get into power, they would be fixing things. What fixing is he talking about? Is he talking about completely erasing the suspension of records that they have proposed, which the New Democrats think is far from what is necessary, which is to support expungement?
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Madam Speaker, this is one of many messes left behind by the Liberal government that the Conservatives will be required and prepared to clean up. We heard great testimony from experts at committee and we have received recommendations. We would like the opportunity to look at them to see if we cannot improve this flawed legislation that will advance through the House.
It has been said, and I will repeat, that a Conservative government will not recriminalize marijuana, but we certainly want to ensure there are no undue obstacles or burdens on folks as a result of this change in the law.
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Madam Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-93, an act that would provide for the possibility of a record suspension for a conviction in relation to the minor possession of cannabis.
I support the legislation. However, while I support it, I do so reluctantly. I support it because in the absence of other legislation, it is the best we have at this present time. However, it need not have been that way.
A bill was put forward by the hon. member for Victoria, Bill C-415, that would have provided for the expungement of records for minor possession. I would submit that Bill C-415 was a much better approach than Bill C-93 introduced by the government. I was very proud to stand in support of Bill C-415 when it came to a vote at second reading. It is very unfortunate that the Liberals across the way, almost uniformly one by one, voted that legislation down.
Why is Bill C-415 better than Bill C-93?
One of the distinctions between the bills is the difference between an expungement and a record suspension. Oftentimes there is confusion of whether they are one and the same or more or less substantively the same, but they are substantively different. An expungement is the deletion, it is the removal of a record. If people are asked if they had ever been convicted of the offence of minor possession, they can honestly answer, no, that they have not because that record is expunged; it is removed. It is as though that offence and that conviction never occurred. Bill C-415 would have provided that.
By contrast, Bill C-93 provides something quite different. In order to obtain a record suspension, one must apply to the National Parole Board. While the Liberals pat themselves on the back for waiving the $631 fee, the fact is that there are significant costs associated with applying to the National Parole Board for a record suspension. Those costs can include such things as finger printing and other searches of records that may be required. So complicated is an application for many individuals, that there are individuals who provide services on a for-profit basis and charge anywhere from $1,800 to $2,000 to apply for a record suspension. It is nice that the Liberals waived the fee, but again it does not address the other costs, time and effort that will be required in order to apply.
Second, under Bill C-93, the burden falls on the applicant to obtain a record suspension. If people happen to be convicted in relation to another offence, they need not apply because they do not qualify. More than half a million Canadians have been convicted of minor possession. By the way, almost half of Canadians have said that they have consumed a minor amount of cannabis.
Half a million Canadians have been convicted. According to departmental officials who appeared before the public safety committee, the estimated number of individuals who would be eligible to apply was around 250,000 Canadians. Right off the bat, half of Canadians who have been convicted of minor possession are disqualified. Why should they be disqualified?
Why should they be disqualified from having their record suspended, and frankly it should be expunged, for committing an offence that today is perfectly legal? It is an activity that the Prime Minister bragged about engaging in before it was legal, when in fact the Prime Minister was a sitting member of Parliament. He was never charged. He was not convicted. He very proudly sloughed it off.
However, a lot of Canadians who were not so lucky as the Prime Minister are burdened with a conviction. Then, if they happen to go through the application, establish that they qualify and obtain a record suspension, it is not over. Why is it not over then? The record is not deleted. It just goes from one national database to another. At some point in the future, perhaps the individual who has obtained a record suspension will have a traffic ticket violation, and the Parole Board might try to reimpose that conviction on the basis that the individual is no longer of good conduct. There are examples of that and there was testimony to that effect at the public safety committee.
That is not to mention the fact that the minister has broad discretion to share those records where the minister deems it to be in the interests of public safety or where there is some other security purpose. Again, even after one has gone through the cumbersome process, the record continues to hang over one's head.
The consequences of having a conviction are serious. It is an impediment to employment. It can be an impediment to housing. It can be an impediment to being able to volunteer in one's community. All this is for committing an offence that is perfectly legal today.
I did not support marijuana legalization, but it seems to me that if the government is going to go down that road, and it has chosen to go down that road, expungement should be part and parcel of that legalization. It is why, of the 23 U.S. states that have either legalized or decriminalized minor possession, seven states have provided for an amnesty, and six of those states have provided for expungement.
Again, that is something the government has opted not to do. Instead, it has established a costly, burdensome process that in the end is going to exclude nearly half of the Canadians who have been convicted of minor possession. It is a half measure that is totally inadequate.
While I support this legislation as being better than nothing, the government could do a lot better than Bill C-93.
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague and commend him for his intelligence. Always, when he rises in this House, he has done his homework.
I also want to thank him for taking the leap and supporting the bill of the member for Victoria because it made sense. I did hear him that the Conservatives did not support the legalization of marijuana. However, it is nice to see that the member has put that aside and decided to look beyond that and ask what the right thing is for Canadians. Now that Canadians are able to consume marijuana legally, how could they carry a criminal record or a suspended record, which is something that would always hang over their head in society, when it could be expunged?
The member talked about the costs. The government calls it a “no-cost record suspension”, but there is a real cost to that. There is the cost of administration, which is significant, whereas an expungement eliminates that cost. Maybe he could speak a bit about the economic costs of not moving forward with expungement.
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Courtenay—Alberni is absolutely right. There are a lot of costs associated with this bill. The cost-effective solution would be to go into CPIC and delete the records. That is all that would be needed. The government has said there are different databases and records stored in courthouse basements. Guess what. When employers ask for a background check and people go to the RCMP, where does the RCMP get the record? It gets the record out of CPIC. When the Government of Canada shares information with the U.S., what database does it share? It shares the CPIC database.
Therefore, from the standpoint of addressing the stigma associated with a conviction that impedes employment, housing, volunteering and crossing the border, expunging the records from CPIC would go a long way. The current government did not do that.
Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, it has been an interesting debate. In the last federal election, the NDP favoured decriminalization, and the Conservatives were passing out all sorts of false information, saying how bad it would be if the Liberals were to legalize cannabis. Today, we have a government that not only has moved forward and legalized cannabis, but it is now seeking to provide a pardon through this legislation. Now the two opposition parties are uniting and saying that it should be an expungement. One could easily see the hypocrisy there.
We have heard that the Conservatives want to amend Bill C-93. Would it be the intention of a future Conservative government to change it to expungement? Is that one of the amendments we can anticipate if the Conservatives come to office?
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Speaker, very briefly, in response to the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader, what a Conservative government would do is clean up the mess left by the current government on a whole host of fronts. There is going to be a lot of work ahead, but I know the hon. leader of the official opposition is more than ready for the task.
The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton
The question is on Motion No. 1. The vote on this motion also applies to Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton
All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton
In my opinion the yeas have it.
And five or more members having risen:
The recorded division on Motion No. 1 stands deferred. The recorded division will also apply to Motion No. 2.
The question is on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
The Deputy Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton
All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.