Debates of Oct. 26th, 2020

Royal Canadian Mounted Police

[Paul Manly, Green, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present today e-petition 2471. This e-petition is about body cameras for the RCMP.

The petitioners note that body cameras are a feasible way of improving police accountability. It can alter the behaviour of people aware that their actions are being recorded and reduce violence. Body cameras protect police officers from liability when they are the target of false accusations and protect citizens from false police testimony. They improve accountability resulting in greater trust, leading to greater public co-operation with the police, and they can be used for powerful evidence in courtrooms to provide greater detail and accuracy than memory alone.

The petitioners are calling on the Government of Canada to grant the RCMP funding for body cameras and the associated costs, such as data storage, to equip nearly all personnel interacting with the public, with rare exceptions such as for undercover officers, with this technology. In addition, as deemed best, funding should be either additional to the RCMP's budget, a proportionate deduction from the RCMP's budget to cover the expense, or a combination thereof.

Questions on the Order Paper

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-6, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conversion therapy), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Criminal Code

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we continue, I would like to inform the House that because of the deferred recorded division, Government Orders will be extended by 83 minutes.

In addition, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona, Health; the hon. member for North Island—Powell River, Veterans Affairs.

When the House last took up debate on the question, the hon. member for Surrey Centre had seven minutes remaining in his time for his remarks.

We will go to the hon. member for Surrey Centre.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, to resume, Bill C-6 proposes a number of offences. Some protect everyone affected by conversion therapy and others specifically protect children. Everyone would be protected by Bill C-6 offences that propose to criminalize profiting from conversion therapy, as well as advertising and offering to provide it. These offences would reduce the availability of conversion therapy, as well as its discriminatory public messaging. That is intended to prevent Canadians from being subjected to this heinous practice.

Critically, Bill C-6 takes a strong stance on protecting children from conversion therapy. It would criminalize causing minors to undergo conversion therapy and removing minors ordinarily resident in Canada from Canada to undergo conversion therapy abroad.

In short, Bill C-6's protections for children are comprehensive. They amount to a complete criminal law ban. This approach is directly responsive to the lasting damage that conversion therapy is known to cause children. Evidence shows that efforts to change an adolescent's sexual orientation are associated with multiple indicators of poor health and adjustment in young adulthood. Specifically, such attempts to change a fundamental part of who a young person is are associated with elevated young-adult depressive symptoms and suicidal behaviour, and with lower levels of young-adult life satisfaction, social support and socio-economic status.

We know that conversion therapy is associated with multiple domains of functioning that affect self-care, well-being and adjustment. We also know that youth are particularly vulnerable to being coerced or compelled to receive conversion therapy. The American Psychological Association noted, in its 2009 systemic review of peer-reviewed literature on conversion therapy, that coercive intervention and residential centres for youth pose serious concerns “due to their advocacy of treatments that have no scientific basis and [their] potential for harm due to coercion, stigmatization, inappropriateness of treatment level and type, and restriction of liberty.”

The association noted that such interventions:

...may pose serious risk of harm, are potentially in conflict with ethical imperatives to maximize autonomous decision making and client self-determination, and have no documented benefits.

We know that children are often subjected to the most invasive forms of conversion therapy, while at the same time being least likely to have the power or authority to oppose undergoing it. They are also the most vulnerable to conversion therapy harm. The research tells us that those formative years, when a youth develops and explores their identity, may be determinative of their future well-being. Messaging that their identity or sexuality is wrong, in efforts to seek to determine their identity for them, particularly at this early stage in life, may lead to serious psychological harm or even death by suicide.

Bill C-6 responds to this disturbing evidence with its proposed offences that would protect all children under the age of 18 from conversion therapy harms. Bill C-6 sends a clear message by carving out a protected space for children to grow and develop. It tells Canadians the truth: that dictating to children who they should be harms them. It should never be done. Significantly, Bill C-6 also ensures legitimate support for youth who express uncertainty about their sexual orientation or gender identity would not be unintentionally captured by criminal law. This is because legitimate therapies and interventions for children and others, for that matter, involve providing support and acceptance for the person's self-definition without dictating a particular result. Legitimate support is provided in an environment that accepts difference.

The American Psychological Association's 2009 report recommends that adolescents’ exploration of identity should be supported by:

accepting homosexuality and bisexuality as normal and positive variants of human sexual orientation,

accepting and supporting youths as they address the stigma and isolation of being a sexual minority,

using person-centered approaches as youths explore their identities and experience important developmental milestones (e.g., exploring sexual values, dating, and socializing openly),

reducing family and peer rejection and increasing family and peer support.

Perhaps even more helpful than describing legitimate therapies for youth and distinguishing them from the harms of conversion therapy is the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry's statement on conversion therapy, which clarifies that:

Comprehensive assessment and treatment of youth that includes exploration of all aspects of identity, including sexual orientation, gender identity, and/or gender expression is not “conversion therapy”. This applies whether or not there are unwanted sexual attractions and when the gender role consistent with the youth’s assigned sex at birth is non-coercively explored as a means of helping the youth understand their authentic gender identity. In the presence of...distress related to incongruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth, the standard of care may involve exploration of living in a different gender role.

I wholeheartedly agree, and nothing in Bill C-6 would capture the legitimate therapies and treatment that I have just described. This is because the Bill C-6 definition of conversion therapy only captures practices, treatments or services designed to effect a particular result. Changing a person's sexual orientation to heterosexual, or gender identity to cisgender, does not capture therapies or interventions for other purposes, such as to support a person in their own identity without requiring a particular result.

I am certain that Bill C-6 would make a significant contribution toward creating an environment that fosters the healthy development of all children who may be questioning, developing or exploring their sexual orientation or gender identity.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a young woman here in the Lower Mainland, Susan, identified as a boy for as long as she could remember. At age 10, she was raped. These early sexual molestations led her to reject her feminine identity and feel unsafe as a girl. At the age of 16, she was so distraught that she was admitted to Vancouver General Hospital. Later in life friends invited her to church and though the experience was not perfect, she felt embraced and loved. She chose to start seeing a counsellor to help deal with unwanted non-heterosexual behaviour. She looked forward to each counselling session because she felt deeply encouraged by each session. Susan wants the government to know that it must protect the right of Canadians to seek the counselling of their choice.

Would the legislation, with the current broad definition of conversion therapy, put Canadians like Susan at risk of not receiving the counselling they chose?

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this does not prohibit counselling, conversations with a spiritual counsellor, spiritual priest or other types of advice. It would particularly protect vulnerable young children from being forced to undergo conversation therapy or being taken abroad to have that done. Scientists, psychiatrists and psychologists have proved this is harmful. It is very dangerous, and it is counterintuitive. In fact, it creates a higher chance of youths committing suicide or having other adverse personal risks in their lives. This would not prohibit, in my understanding, any conversations, counselling or identity exploration for individuals, especially young adolescents.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the member's speech. I wonder if he would comment on some of the concerns that have been raised both here in debate and outside.

As legislators, we have a responsibility to try and create the best legislation we can. Would he be open to amendment at committee to make this bill stronger, better and improve upon and clarify the definition to ensure that many of the concerns some people have raised about the bill can be very clearly dealt with so we can ensure we meet the objective of the bill, which is to ensure the horrible practice of conversion therapy not legally occur in Canada?

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, part of our legislative process is to explore, refine and make even better bills that are proposed by government, private members or otherwise. We will always look for positive comments that will help protect our citizens, particularly our youth who are under age and those who are defined under the charter. I am open to hearing anything that will help protect their lives. The intent must be to protect the individuals who the bill was designed to protect to avoid any harm they may face from this very harmful practice of conversion therapy.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things I am personally very concerned about is that we ensure different language is not used to hide this very poisonous practice. I think of people calling it body affirming therapy. This is really about protecting young people, protecting people who are transgender or gender non-conforming individuals, supporting them in moving forward, not having this toxic barrier.

Could the member talk a bit about how some of these services are hidden and how unsafe that makes these communities?

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when growing up, I still remember my member of Parliament, Svend Robinson. coming out for the first time. I was in grade eight. I remember the impact it had on me and everyone else in his constituency.

I knew him very well. As a young child I helped with his campaigns. It was a big learning experience for me to converse and talk with him to find out why he had not done it before, why he came out later, what the social implications and difficulties were. I remember explaining that to many others, specifically to my community, the South Asian community, which were not familiar with a lot of these principles, thoughts and identities. They did not relate to them at the time.

It is more imperative that we learn about these and protect those who are in that young age, still trying to figure things out and having challenging thoughts. Society has come a long way now. I hope we as a government can help facilitate that and give people a safe environment to do so.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak to Bill C-6, which proposes to promote the equality rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and two-spirit Canadians by taking important steps to end a practice that discriminates against them. Because of the individual harm conversion therapy causes to those subjected to it and the societal harms it causes by propagating the myth that a person can and should change a fundamental part of who they are, their sexual orientation or gender identity, Bill C-6 proposes new criminal offenses that criminalize the practice with a view to ending it.

I am proud that this bill puts Canada at the forefront of the international community in the fight against a destructive practice. There is no doubt that Canada is a leader in criminal law reform in the area of conversion therapy, but we are not alone. In fact, we are part of a growing movement to protect LGBTQ2 communities from a practice that stigmatizes and harms them.

Most countries that have taken steps to combat this practice have not proceeded with criminal law reform. However, there is growing recognition that criminal law is an appropriate tool to fight the harm caused by conversion therapy.

Bill C-6 defines conversion therapy with respect to its purpose. It is any practice, treatment or service designed to change a person's sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender or to repress or reduce non-heterosexual attraction or sexual behaviour. Such a definition excludes practices, treatments or services designed for other purposes, most notably gender-affirming treatments. Such treatments are designed to provide support in an accepting environment, not to change the person receiving them.

On the basis of this clear definition, Bill C-6 creates the following offences: causing a minor to undergo conversion therapy, removing a minor from Canada with the intention that they undergo conversion therapy, causing a person to undergo conversion therapy against the person’s will, receiving a financial or other material benefit from the provision of conversion therapy, and advertising an offer to provide conversion therapy.

This approach will provide general protection for all persons under the age of 18, whether the conversion therapy is provided in Canada or outside Canada. It would also protect all Canadians by reducing the availability of conversion therapy and discriminatory messaging through proposed offences that would prohibit advertising conversion therapy or financially benefiting from it. This bill does not just protect children.

How does such an approach measure up on a global scale? The only known jurisdiction to have implemented a criminal law response is Malta. In 2016, Malta made it an offence to perform conversion practices on vulnerable persons, defined as a person under the age of 16 years, a person suffering from a mental disorder or a person considered by the court to be at risk. Malta also criminalizes performing involuntary conversion and advertising such practices.

Of course, each country's response has been tailored to its own legal system and reflects the lived realities of its own people.

I am pleased to note that BillC-6 provides protection to all children under 18 years of age, given the evidence indicating that this group is the most adversely impacted. Canada is proposing an added measure that would serve to denounce and reduce the availability of conversion therapy. That is a criminal offence that would prohibit profiting from the practice in any circumstance.

Although it appears that other countries have yet to implement criminal law responses, Canada and Malta may not be alone for long. In March 2018, the European parliament passed a resolution condemning conversion therapy and urging European Union members to ban the practice. In July, the U.K. announced that it would study the issue and then bring forward plans to ban conversion therapy. A bill proposing a to ban performing or advertising conversion therapy is currently before Ireland's parliament.

While countries are looking at how to combat conversion therapy, the United Nations took a firm stance against this practice. This summer, an independent expert on protection against violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity presented a thematic report on conversion therapy practices at the 44th session of the United Nations Human Rights Council.

The report recommends that countries ban practices of conversion therapy from being advertised and carried out in health care, religious, education, community, commercial or any other settings, public or private. It also recommends that countries establish a system of sanctions for non-compliance with the ban on practices of conversion therapy.

Although only one country is known to have adopted a criminal law response, many countries have implemented civil bans in an attempt to reduce the prevalence of conversion therapy, particularly its delivery by health care professionals. Many American states, for example, have enacted legislation that prevents health care professionals from providing conversion therapy to minors, such that professionals who violate this rule are subject to disciplinary measures.

Three Canadian provinces have followed a similar approach. Ontario, Nova Scotia and P.E.I. have passed legislation specifying that conversion therapy is not an insured service and banning health care providers from doing it to minors unless they are capable of consenting and do in fact consent. Also, both Yukon and my home Province of Quebec have recently introduced bills that would affect similar reforms.

To my knowledge, none of Canada's provinces or territories consider conversion therapy to be an insured service, whether that is set out in legislation or not. This practice has been discredited and condemned by the relevant professional associations. However, three provinces have demonstrated leadership in protecting minors by prohibiting health care providers from subjecting them to conversion therapy.

Nova Scotia's approach offers additional protection by prohibiting those in a position of trust or authority over young people from subjecting them to conversion therapy.

These are important elements of the suite of protections that Canada is building to promote the equality of LGBTQ2 Canadians. Bill C-6 builds on these responses and fills gaps. Provincial legislation protects minors in the health care context, but what about other contexts?

We know that conversion therapy is provided by a range of different people, not just health care professionals. In fact, some providers have no training at all. Provincial health care laws cannot apply to lay persons providing conversion therapy. Provincial legislation also only protects minors who are incapable of making their own treatment decisions. What about minors who are capable of making those decisions and what about adults?

These gaps are where Bill C-6 would play a critical role. It would provide protection to children and adults, while building on existing provincial responses. All of these provincial statutes conceptualize the problem in the same way. They define conversion therapy with respect to its objective to change a person's sexual orientation and gender identity, which necessarily excludes all legitimate gender-affirming treatments, practices or services. The various statutes might use slightly different terminology but their respective definitions amount to the same thing.

I am pleased that Bill C-6 is part of a broader Canadian response. Bill C-6 will protect all individuals under the age of 18, whether they have the capacity to consent to treatment or not, regardless of who is providing said treatment.

Together, responses at all levels of government convey the clear message that conversion therapy is wrong. It harms those subjected to it and it harms society by implying that there is something wrong with difference.

As Canadians, we cannot tolerate such messaging. It runs contrary to who we are as a people and as a nation. We are a society that promotes these fundamental values. Bill C-6 reflects who we are as Canadians. Conversion therapy must stop. I urge all members to join me in support of this critical legislation.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will make it very clear that I am opposed to conversion therapy and its practice and use on minors in Canada. However, I do have some challenges with the bill in its current form, especially as it relates to a child-parent relationship.

The definition of “conversion therapy” in the legislation is that it is a practice to reduce one's sexual behaviour. What protections would this proposed law provide in its current form for parents having a discussion with their child when the child might not be in agreement with the parents?

The bill seems to lack support and protection for parents who have to have those challenging and difficult conversations with their children.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this bill would not take away conversations, which I hope families are having when children have questions about their identity and their sexual orientation. I am hoping that they are having those conversations with their parents, and this bill would not take away those conversations.

In fact, regarding the concerns members may have, this is where we have those debates. This is where we bring it to committee, and this is where we have those questions answered, but in no way would this bill take away conversations between family members and support for children who are facing this.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member on the other side mentioned a few countries, such as Malta, those in the European Union and throughout the United Nations. It seems from what she mentioned that the bill does not agree with other practices or laws out there. Can she be specific on where the disagreement lies between Bill C-6 and other countries?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, every country is dealing with its own lived experiences. Here in Canada we have a Canadian-made approach. Bill C-8, which was brought forward before, has now been brought back as Bill C-6, and it is really a Canadian approach.

I know that some people would say that it does not go far enough in terms of protection, especially of those who are vulnerable, such as our children, who are facing incredible discrimination and horrors, which we have heard of in this House and through our history. What may work in Malta, Ireland and the U.K. may not work here, and that is why we made a point of bringing forward legislation that will work here in Canada.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to let members know how excited I am about the bill and how important it is. It has made me think of my former colleague at the University of Winnipeg, Catherine Taylor, who won a precedent-setting ethics committee review to allow kids who are part of the 2SLGBTQQIA community to participate in a research study, which resulted in her receiving death threats.

I reiterate how critical it is to protect kids when we are still evolving as a society to allow people to live who they are. This is a human right, and I want to express my support for Bill C-6.

Members of the Conservative Party have raised concerns about parental control. I would ask the member why is it so critical that kids who perhaps are in families where parents are not supportive of their identity are still provided with the protection they deserve and require to protect this human right.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to touch on exactly that when we talk about families. Many years ago my aunt came out. The family was not sure how to answer that question, because it was unfortunately a very different time. Those conversations now happen very openly.

I am hoping, and I know I am going off target, that even with this pandemic she will be celebrating her nuptials with her long-time partner in a couple of weeks. I am hoping to be there to witness it. She has had a long road, and I am really proud of her.

I am proud of so many Canadians who are who they are, are not afraid to stand up for who they are and know there is nothing wrong with them. They are free to be who they are.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Before we go to resuming debate, I notice the topic before the House this afternoon is, of course, of great interest during questions and comments. I do see a number of members trying to get in, both here in the House and by virtual connection. I am going to do my best to make sure everyone gets a chance to pose a question. We will take them in order and make it as equal as we can across the House and each of the parties. In that sense, it would help if members could make their questions and comments succinct.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Kildonan—St. Paul.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I was first elected just over a year ago. When I stepped foot in the House of Commons and sat in one those famous green chairs, I instantly felt the enormous weight of the responsibility to ethically and professionally represent the 85,000 people in my riding of Kildonan—St. Paul.

It is a very diverse riding. There are many seniors and young families, hard-working small business owners, trades professionals and public servants. There are thriving faith communities, which have risen to the enormous challenges of the pandemic and provided much needed to support to those hit hardest by the economic and health challenges. There are also many people from the LGBTQ community and many more parents, friends, sisters and brothers and neighbours to LGBTQ people.

As the member of Parliament to all these wonderful groups and many more, I have the responsibility to defend our country’s freedoms and civil liberties on their behalf and to help create a society that treats all people with dignity, compassion and respect, especially our society’s most vulnerable. That is why the discussion on Bill C-6, an act to amend the Criminal Code concerning conversion therapy and the LGBTQ community is important to me as a parliamentarian and the federal representative of Kildonan—St. Paul.

We know history has not been kind to the LGBTQ community. In Canada, in the 1800s, same-sex relationships between men were punishable by death. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were efforts to eliminate all homosexuals from the public service, the RCMP and the Canadian military. Following the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1969, things began to slowly change for the better for the LGBTQ community. The Canadian pride movement gained traction in the 1970s, but police continued to raid gay bars and arrest and intimidate LGBTQ Canadians.

However, in 1982, Canada patriated the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and section 15 of the charter guaranteed for all Canadians equality before and under the law, and the right to equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination. This section became critical for the LGBTQ community in 1995 when the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that sexual orientation should be read in or applied to section 15 of the charter.

Further, in 1992, former Conservative justice minister Kim Campbell lifted the ban on homosexuals in the military. Canada became one of the first modern countries in the world to do so. In 2005, Canada became the fourth country in the world to officially legalize same-sex marriage nationwide. These rights and many more in Canada were hard fought and won by the LGBTQ community and their allies, so they could live free and be equal under the law.

I was born in 1990, so the rights and acceptance of LGBTQ Canadians has largely been the norm for my entire life, and the 2005 same-sex marriage debate occurred just as I was entering young adulthood. For me, protection of sexual orientation, identity and expression are a given in a society that is as free, diverse and accepting as Canada.

However, we know that even today, LGBTQ Canadians face discrimination and immense hardship. When I was the shadow minister for diversity, inclusion and youth, I had the opportunity to meet with many support groups for the LGBTQ community. They shared with me truly heartbreaking stories, stories of how they provided emergency supports for young people who were, for example, kicked out of their homes for being gay, whose parents had disowned them. I was told it happens more often than one thinks.

They shared how trans kids are so often abused by others, whether at home, walking down the street or at school. They also shared how they helped older adults struggling with coming out because they grew up in a different time, when LGBTQ Canadians had to hide in the closet, so to speak. These were very eye-opening conversations for me of the realities faced by many LGBTQ people in Canada.

A young person who recently transitioned, who I have come to know, shared with me what this bill meant to her. She said, “The hardest thing for young LGBTQ people is believing your family won’t support you or love you for who you are. This bill says it’s wrong to pressure or force someone to be someone they—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I will interrupt the hon. member for a moment.

On a point of order, the hon. member for Banff—Airdrie.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the member will be splitting her time with the member for Mégantic—L'Érable.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Is the hon. member for Kildonan—St. Paul wishing to share her time?