House of Commons Hansard #35 of the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, today I rise during committee of the whole to speak and ask questions. I would like to speak for about nine minutes and then ask some questions to the minister for about six minutes.

I have been listening to the discussion tonight and a lot of it focuses around the Marshall decision when we are talking about moderate livelihoods. Some will talk about it as Marshall one or Marshall two. To many MPs and people around Canada, it is just a name on a piece of paper or the title of a case, nothing more, nothing less.

However, as the only Mi'kmaq who has ever sat in the House, I think it is important to give context on who Donald Marshall Jr. was. To the Mi'kmaq, there is much more to this. We know the man. I can think of his smile right now and his moustache and the bell cap he usually wore out and about in Cape Breton. He was known as “Junior” to most of the Mi'kmaq because his father was the grand chief of the Mi'kmaq nation for 27 years, until his peaceful death in 1991.

I remember as a young child listening to Donald Marshall Jr. when he went to classrooms to talk about his fight to change the justice system, after spending 11 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Donald Marshall Jr. spoke to Mi'kmaq youth at youth conferences about his personal views of justice and what he endured. He taught about resilience and that each one of us has a responsibility to fight for justice, whether in a courtroom, at home or even in jail.

I remember watching a movie at a very young age called Justice Denied that talked about his story and his fight for justice. We often ask in Nova Scotia how this could happen.

It was the focus of a provincial commission, the “Royal Commission on the Donald Marshall, Jr. Prosecution”, which found, on page 1, “The criminal justice system failed Donald Marshall Jr. at...every turn from his arrest and his wrongful conviction” in 1971. It called it a “miscarriage of justice”. It stated that the reason was, at least in part, because Donald Marshall Jr. was indigenous.

Despite all he had gone through, just four years after his commission, Junior was fighting for justice again, but this time on behalf of a nation. After years of litigation, the Mi'kmaq who had validated their treaties at the Supreme Court case in 1985 now turned to Donald Marshall Jr. for the most important litigation the nation had ever been a part of. Unlike any other case, it was not about surviving but thriving as a nation. It was a court case about a Mi'kmaq person being able to move from poverty to a moderate or modest living.

Elder Kerry Prosper, a chief then, described it as a win for our nation. It was the first time many chiefs felt a collective win as a nation. Unfortunately, the jubilation for the Mi'kmaq and Junior was brief. Only two months later, our Supreme Court of Canada, based on political and economic pressures, decided to clarify this decision.

As far as I know in my academic career and legal knowledge, I can point to no other Supreme Court of Canada case that has ever needed clarification. I can only imagine what Donald Marshall Jr. went through and what it must have felt like to hear his victory on behalf of the nation required an unprecedented clarification.

In both cases the facts were the same and the verdict was the same, which was that Donald Marshall Jr. caught and sold eels out of season and was protected by a Mi'kmaq treaty right to do so.

Donald Marshall Jr. passed away a hero in 2009, a hero to his nation. I felt it was important to give this context to the legacy we are dealing with when we speak of the Marshall decision. I am only sad that Junior died before seeing his home community of Membertou become one of the owners of the largest fisheries company in this country. I congratulate his home community, Chief Terry Paul of Membertou and its council for making sure Junior's legacy will always be a positive one.

I have heard people speak about the Marshall decision over the past few months. Many quote the case as if the Mi'kmaq lost this case, as if they did not have this right. Unfortunately, understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding indigenous case law from 1929 until today.

Understanding the Marshall decision requires understanding the Constitution of Canada, specifically section 35, which recognizes and affirms all existing aboriginal and treaty rights, as well as section 52, which states: “The Constitution of Canada is the supreme law of Canada, and any law that is inconsistent with...the Constitution is...of no force or effect.”

I wanted to give that context because I thought it was important for the Mi'kmaq, and for the House of Commons, to understand that when Marshall decisions 1 or 2 are talked about, it means a lot to the Mi'kmaq people because he was one of our heroes. I miss him. Many of us do today.

I will now pivot my questions to the minister. I would like to start off by thanking her for her valuable work during the early stages of COVID. I acknowledge her for the many conversations that we had about some of the difficult situations that were going on within the fisheries in the early months in the spring and her success in advocating for the fish harvester benefit and grant.

I ask the minister if she could give us the numbers of how many fishermen we helped in Nova Scotia during these difficult times.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margarets Nova Scotia

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Madam Chair, it is extremely important for all of us to understand what it means to be treaty people. I want to thank the hon. member for talking to me over the last few months on a regular basis about Marshall and helping me understand the context of the Marshall decision. His input has been invaluable, so I really do appreciate it.

With regard to the question, more than 15,000 self-employed harvesters and their families across the country have received support to help them weather the COVID-19 pandemic. I do not have that broken down in front of me, but I am happy to provide that to him.

We do know that it was an extremely valuable program to fish harvesters. It was extremely important that they had the supports necessary in order to make very difficult decisions when it came to their seasons. This is a program that we were committed to making sure we rolled out, and it has been very successful.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, the minister and I had several conversations about ensuring that all fishermen were part of the fish harvester benefit and grant program. Specifically, we had plenty of conversations about some of the Mi'kmaq communal commercial fisheries that were left out in the discussions we have had over the past few months because several Mi'kmaq are part of the communal commercial fisheries. They fish alongside all other fishermen during the seasons and have done so successfully for a number of years. I can think of Crane Cove fisheries as one of them that, in my home community, employs close to 100 fishermen who are part of this group.

Could the minister speak to how we ensured that all fishermen were part of the fish harvester benefit in furthering reconciliation?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, when we designed the fish harvester benefit and grant, we knew how important it was going to be to get it to as many fishers as possible. That included first nations with regard to commercial communal licences. We made sure that it got to inland fishers, who would normally be under the provincial jurisdiction, but we wanted to make sure they also had their concerns addressed.

It was an important part of reconciliation to make sure that first nations harvesters had the same benefits and were able to access the same funding as everybody else, even though their licence structure is different.

The fish harvester benefit and grant program was a huge success. It has helped, as I said, over 15,000 commercial harvesters and their families across the country. We made sure that they had the benefits they needed in order to get through this very difficult time.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, in the Fisheries Act passed in 2019, among other things, two very important sections were included in that.

Section 2.3 says:

This Act is to be construed as upholding the rights of Indigenous peoples recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, and not as abrogating or derogating from them.

As well as this key clause, which is law and which I will ask the minister about, under “Duty of Minister”, it says:

When making a decision under this Act, the Minister shall consider any adverse effects that the decision may have on the rights of the Indigenous peoples of Canada recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Minister, with all that is going on, do you believe these two sections were key parts of our government's continued commitment to reconciliation and ensuring nation-to-nation respect was continued to be paid around aboriginal and treaty rights?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Carol Hughes

I do want to remind the member to address the questions to the Chair.

The hon. minister.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, I want to thank Senator Christmas particularly, who made the amendments to those clauses to which the member has referred. That strengthens the act and the language that we use when it comes to first nations rights, section 35.

All Canadians have to learn more about our obligations, treaty rights and what it means to have an affirmed right to fish for a moderate livelihood. We have seen a real interest from people on this issue.

The Supreme Court upheld this decision and we want to ensure we implement it right. That is why we are working with first nations communities. The member of course is well aware of how complex the issue is. He has lived it himself. He knows there is still work to be done and we are committed to doing it.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Madam Chair, I would like to congratulate the minister on her comments in the committee of the whole tonight. I wanted to ask about the painting in her background. It is quite lovely. I wonder if she could give us some context on the painting and possibly talk a little about the artist.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, the painting is by Loretta Gould, a Mi'kmaq artist from Cape Breton. It signifies women empowerment. It was done for the women's centre in Cape Breton and I was fortunate enough to get a print of it.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, does the minister believe that Pacific salmon hatcheries provide a net-positive or net-negative impact on Pacific salmon conservation?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

South Shore—St. Margarets Nova Scotia

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Madam Chair, with regard to the recreational fisheries, we know this has been an extremely tough year. We know that the measures we have had to take to protect chinook salmon have been hard for the recreational fishery. We want to make sure we work with them.

Again, as I have said many times, I am not averse to—

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, I do not believe the minister heard my question, because she did not even attempt to answer it, so I will ask it again. Does the minister believe that Pacific salmon hatcheries provide a net-positive or net-negative impact on conservation?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, hatcheries are an extremely important part of our fisheries on the west coast. Making sure that hatchery fish are looked after is a DFO responsibility that we take very seriously. We know how important hatchery fish are, and we will continue to work with small community hatcheries and other hatcheries to make sure they are able to be sustained.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, can the minister tell us how much time the southern resident killer whales have spent in their designated sanctuary area, to the exclusion of all recreational fishers?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, the southern resident killer whale is an extremely iconic, important species. We have to do everything we can to protect and recover this species. In recent years, our government has taken significant steps to address the key threats to their survival. We have to continue to work with our partners and stakeholders to protect them.

I am not really sure where my colleague is going with this question, but we are going to continue to take measures to make sure we protect the southern resident killer whales.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Carol Hughes

I want to remind the hon. member that the House has asked there to be a neutral background when members are presenting before the House.

The hon. member.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, my question for the minister was about how much time southern resident killer whales spent in their sanctuary area. Surely to goodness, this is one metric that would determine whether the sanctuary area was effective.

Again, can the minister tell us how much time southern resident killer whales have spent in their designated sanctuary areas, to the exclusion of recreational fishers?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, as I have said many times tonight, I know the conservation measures we have put in place have been extremely difficult for recreational fishers. However, having said that, we will continue to do everything we possibly can to protect the southern resident killer whale. This is an iconic species. It is endangered. We want to make sure that it is here for the long term, for everyone to enjoy. We will continue to work to protect southern resident killer whales.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, does the minister understand that fishing lodges, guides and rural coastal communities relying on these businesses were devastated by the retention restrictions on chinook, coupled with COVID? Can the minister tell us why the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has not offered them any direct support?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, I absolutely acknowledge the challenges being faced by the participants in the recreational fishery, including the guides, the lodges and all of the people who make their living from the recreational fishery. However, I also recognize that the chinook are in a desperate situation. We knew they need to be protected. We needed to take tough action. We needed to make sure there were measures in place to—

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Chair NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, mass marking would allow for a mark-selective fishery for chinook salmon, which would be a critical lifeline for these communities. Interior Fraser coho currently have a mass marking and mark-selective fishery and have had one for years, with relative success. Interestingly, it is the interior Fraser chinook populations in that area that are struggling, so if it worked for coho, why is the minister so unsure that it will not work for chinook?

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Chair, we understand there is an interest in a mark-selective fishery. However, my department did not authorize a broad expansion of the mark-selective fishery this year because of several concerns. Among those concerns were the potential risk of increased fishing effort and the increased potential of mortality from hooking and releasing unmarked salmon.

We have to continue to work on consulting with first nations and other interest groups on the mark-selective fisheries and, of course, on hatchery production. We want to make sure that as we go forward with this, we do it in the right way to address the concerns that we are hearing and make sure the stocks are well looked after.

Fisheries and Oceans—Main Estimates, 2020-21Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Chair, if it is working for coho, why does the minister think it would not work for chinook?