Debates of Nov. 5th, 2020

Income Tax Act

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I think the hon. member would agree that supporting Canadians in the fight against COVID-19 is something we all agree is a good thing to do. At the same time we are making sure those very businesses are supported to get the employees and to pay for those costs so that we can have these businesses continue to bridge through better times. In fact, dare I say, some of them have been thriving during this time. Using the wage subsidy is helping them get through this and this is the—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, I think $10 billion is the answer to the very simple question the member for Carleton put forward to the Minister of Finance. I believe that the Minister of Finance said that the total debt is about $1 trillion. That is a “1” with 12 zeros. Then 1% moves the decimal over two, so it is a “1" with 10 zeros, which I think $10 billion.

Incidentally, that is the number that was being discussed in earlier debate today as the amount of money required to complete the universal pharmacare program. Is my math correct?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I would really like to ask the Conservatives to be clear with Canadians and maybe even to be clear with themselves as to what they are driving at. We know what the NDP believes in. We know what the Bloc believes in, but the Conservatives right now seem to be struggling. On one hand they are concerned enterprises in their ridings are not getting enough support from the government, but on the other hand they seem obsessed with debt and deficits. Conservatives really owe it—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, we are all being kept in suspense. We all want to sleep well tonight.

Is my math correct? Is it $10 billion?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we are being kept in suspense too. The Conservatives need to decide what they stand for.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, we stand for common sense. The question is, how would a 1% increase in interest rates affect the national debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, the question is, what is the Conservative Party's policy? Is it a policy of austerity, or is it a policy of supporting businesses?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, earlier the minister called this a hypothetical question. There is nothing hypothetical about the debt. How would an increase in interest rates affect the $1-trillion national debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, it is actually a question of policy, a question of philosophy.

Our philosophy is to support businesses. I want to know what the Conservatives' policy is.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, the minister will be able to ask lots of questions once I am on the other side of the House and she is in the opposition. That will be soon.

She is unable to answer questions. Let's try another one. The Auditor General asked for more money so she can audit this government's massive spending. Will the minister give the Auditor General the money she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, I am very happy to say that, in contrast to pre-2015 cuts, the Auditor General's budget was increased in 2018.

That increase made it possible to hire 38 new employees. We are collaborating with the Auditor General and are in constant contact with her.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, will the government give the Auditor General the money she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I want to mention that the budget went up by $8.3 million in 2018 compared—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. The hon. member for Carleton.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, when the Conservatives were in power, the Office of the Auditor General conducted 28 audits per year, compared to 14 now. Government spending has doubled, yet the number of audits has dropped by half.

Here is a simple question dealing with the present, not the past. Will the government give the Auditor General the funding she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I have great respect for my colleague, and even a bit of fondness.

I must tell him that, on this too, he needs to pick a lane. Does he support increasing the budget as we did, or does he want to cut the budget, like he did before 2015?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, I thank the hon. minister for his fondness.

I appreciate him very much, but I would appreciate an answer to my question even more. If he is so fond of me and our caucus, can he tell us whether he will hand over the money the Auditor General is asking for?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, to love someone completely, one must understand them completely.

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time understanding my colleague. I do not know if he is in favour of an increase like we did in 2018 or in favour of a cut like he did before 2015.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, the government is in favour of increasing the number of audits of small and medium-sized businesses, but not of a government that is spending this year like never before in the history of Canada.

Why does the government accept major audits of our small businesses that create jobs, but not audits of Liberal spending?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, another person for whom I have a great deal of esteem and affection is the Auditor General.

She is doing amazingly solid work, especially in the difficult conditions of the COVID-19 pandemic. If the hon. member for Carleton had listened to her comments over the past few days, he would know that she is practically in love with the Canadian government because we listen to her and we are there to collaborate with her so that she and her office can work in service of Canadians.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, he claims he loves the Auditor General, but it seems to me they are afraid of this important person, because they are denying her that money.

One last time, will the Auditor General get that money, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, unfortunately, there is so much more I could add about the important work of the Auditor General. I guess I will have to do that some other time.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Independent, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, I appreciate being able to participate in the debate on Bill C-9. All the questions specifically on Bill C-9 that I was going to ask have already been asked. Therefore, I will address a number of issues that I raised in the House before and ask questions of the Minister of Finance. The first is on GDP. The other is on first nations finance.

GDP per capita has historically been used to make assumptions about the standard of living within a nation, the assumption being that the higher the per capita amount, the better the standards are. However, GDP has mixed results when trying to measure the social well-being of a population. As an economic tool, it only makes assumptions about the basic standards of living, which can be different across the socio-economic spectre of the nation. Moreover, better standards of living do not necessarily equate to increased social well-being, with the latter affected by a range of factors: mental well-being, cultural resilience, environmental health.

Does the Minister of Finance agree that using a different planning tool than GDP could help us develop budgets and policy that aim to increase the social well-being of all Canadians and not just the economic bottom line? I would be very interested in the minister's thoughts in this regard.