House of Commons Hansard #41 of the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was medical.

Topics

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, I would simply respond to the hon. member by asking this question: Why would we rush a decision of great consequence, which will have huge ramifications, when we are hearing powerful testimonies like that of Roger Foley, who felt pressured in this situation and that he was being encouraged to take that step?

It is time that we hit pause and reflect, because these are very serious matters. These people deserve to have all of their perspectives heard. I would think the hon. member would certainly consider the testimony heard at committee from someone like Ms. Carr, who represents many Canadians living with disabilities. She expressed grave concerns. I am sure he would agree that these concerns need to be heard.

If great Canadian citizens, who are right there in some of the most affected communities, are saying there is an alarm bell and they have grave concerns with this bill, should we not pause and reflect based on that kind of testimony?

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his service both in this place and before.

By way of response to the point made by the parliamentary secretary, it is important to underline, first of all, that it is the people living with disabilities who have encountered the health care system, as well as medical professionals, who testified at committee about the importance of the safeguards that are in place right now. They did so recognizing that in the vast majority of cases, the system tries to do its best to treat people with respect, affirm their dignity and ensure the decisions they are making are considered in an appropriate time frame.

That is what we would like to believe happens in the majority of cases, but we know directly from the testimony that it does not happen in every case. That is why we have safeguards. Safeguards are there to respond to the general case. They are there to respond to those cases of potential abuse, those cases that are outside of what we would expect to be normal good practice, because as the legislation is written, there is the possibility of same-day death. There is the possibility of people being rushed, and that is what witnesses said happens. That is why they said we need the safeguards.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, I totally agree with the hon. member that now is the time to make sure that safeguards are put in place. With a matter as serious as this and when decisions of such finality are at stake, why would we not, as parliamentarians, pause and reflect? Based on the testimonies we heard and the potential ramifications of this legislation being passed, this bill can have huge, perhaps even unintended consequences, that could dramatically affect the lives of our most vulnerable.

I will reiterate that the character of a nation is revealed in how it treats its most vulnerable. This bill inadequately addresses the needs of our most vulnerable.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It has happened a few times, and I know it is late, but the hon. member for Peace River—Westlock has taken a few phone calls in the chamber. Perhaps the Speaker could advise him of the rules on such things in this place.

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10:20 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Absolutely. It is not only phone calls, but having phones on with sound. I would ask members to refrain from using their phones in the chamber.

Resuming debate, we have the hon. member for Saskatoon West.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Madam Speaker, it is my privilege to speak to Bill C-7 today. I have previously spoken to this legislation several times.

I would be remiss if I did not remind the House that the reason we are here at this late hour is that the bill was originally introduced and it died with prorogation. Why was there a prorogation? Because the government had this scandal with the WE organization. As much as the Liberals maybe wanted to proceed with Bill C-7, they were more interested in trying to quell all the furor around the WE scandal. I just want to remind members in the House that this is why we are here at this late hour, speaking about this.

The legislation would amend the original MAID legislation from 2016. MAID is a very touchy, personal and non-partisan issue. I have asked my constituents many questions about this proposed law and most of them are opposed. I am opposed and I will not be supporting the legislation.

Why are we here right now? There are two examples of Liberal inaction that brought us to this place.

The first is the Quebec judge who struck down the “reasonably foreseeable” portion of the law in the Truchon case. Federal governments typically would appeal a lower court ruling, particularly one that has such profound and life-altering consequences. It is quite interesting that the Liberal government chose not to appeal this case, given that it had such significant consequences right across the country. In my opinion, the government should have appealed this case, but it chose not to.

The second reason we are here is that originally the legislation had a scheduled parliamentary review that was supposed to happen this past summer. COVID-19 threw a bit of a monkey wrench into that plan, but at the end of the day, this review has not happened. Again, inaction on the part of the government has gotten us to this place. Why was there inaction on this review? The current justice minister voted against this legislation in 2016, not because he did not agree with the legislation but because it did not go far enough, in his opinion.

The Liberals talk about consulting and listening to Canadians, but the truth is that the Liberal government has its own agenda and pushes that. The truth is that the Liberals did not want the parliamentary review the way it was defined. They wanted something less, something that they could better control. The truth is that they had their own agenda and they wanted to implement their own plans.

The Liberals will talk about consultations that they had with groups and 300,000 responses to their online consultation, but those kinds of discussions are very different from a parliamentary review. Those kinds of consultations are very easy to manipulate, easy to ignore, easy to lead people in a certain direction. It provides cover in the end for implementing the agenda they want to implement.

They had an online survey. It asked leading questions. There was very little ability for people to think outside the box, to provide their own suggestions. It was there for barely two weeks. It was a very short period of time.

It is interesting that we have had the Senate pre-study and the committee study in the House of Commons and almost nobody liked the legislation, even Liberals who spoke to it. Witness after witness had issues that they raised with the legislation and there was nearly unanimous agreement that it needed to be changed dramatically.

Therefore, here we are.

What do I think about the legislation? I sent several mailers to my constituents. We received well over 400 contacts, including phone calls, emails and letters. Roughly two-thirds of them were opposed to the legislation.

There was a lot of feedback on the rights of health care workers. Do they have the right to say no to euthanizing someone? The whole question of conscience protection came up again and again. Are medical professionals free to not participate in this? Are they free of penalty or harassment? The conscientious objection of institutions is another thing that came up, because institutions are more than bricks and mortar; they are actual people with values invested.

I have spoken of this before, but I want to raise it again.

In Saskatoon, we have a wonderful hospital called St. Paul's Hospital. It is a Catholic hospital governed by the Catholic Bishops board. The Province of Saskatchewan allows hospitals to choose which services to perform. This particular hospital operates on the basis of the Catholic faith, so it does not perform MAID. However, it does respect patients' right to choose and it will transfer patients to another hospital if MAID is requested by that patient.

Instead of MAID, St. Paul's is well known for its amazing palliative care. I have a personal example from my own family, because my mother-in-law was a patient in the palliative care wing of St. Paul's Hospital here in Saskatoon. In her case, MAID was not requested nor was it desired. She received one of 12 palliative care beds in the city. She received amazing care as she came to the end of her life and passed away peacefully in that palliative care bed.

I just want to highlight the 12 palliative care beds. Fortunately, the hospital has recently added 13 more, but even at that, 25 palliative care beds for all of northern Saskatchewan is far below what is needed. It is very inadequate. It is a bit like winning the lottery, in a sense, to get a palliative care bed in northern Saskatchewan right now, and my mother-in-law was very fortunate she was able to have that at the end of her life. In fact, 70% of Canadians do not have access to good palliative care.

The hospital actually built these 13 new beds all on its own, by raising the money to build the units. However, because there is lack of conscience protection, the hospital is being sued by activists to provide MAID. A hospital well known for amazing palliative care is being forced to defend itself in court because it will not provide MAID. We must respect the multicultural nature of Canadian society. We have to respect medical professionals and institutions and allow them to have full conscience protections, free from harassment and consequences.

As I said, MAID is a very touchy, personal and non-partisan issue. We can always find examples of people for whom MAID legislation is a difficult and unwelcome option, but I have heard many stories of cases where families were caught by surprise and forced to deal with the aftermath, or cases where a person was at a particularly low point in their health. Under this legislation, they would be able to request and receive MAID with no waiting period. I have also heard of cases where physicians or hospitals applied pressure on individuals to consider MAID.

There are a couple of stories I would like to share. A friend of mine had an elderly father who was in hospital with non-life-threatening issues. Eventually a doctor came by who suggested to his father that he think about MAID, and his father actually chose MAID without letting his family know. My friend had to explain to his elderly mom, who had the beginnings of dementia, what had happened to her husband, and to his dad. It was very difficult to explain, and very complicated. There was no consultation with the family and it was thrown on them as a surprise. In fact, they did not even have a funeral for over a year because they simply did not know how to explain it to people and cope with it.

What that example shows me is that, in the aftermath of people choosing MAID, there is literally a swath of people who are hurt emotionally by these things. The requirements for counselling and psychologists and other things are amazing.

Another story I have is about a constituent of mine, who is a disabled older person. I spoke to her because she was trying to bring in a care worker, and that led to a discussion about Bill C-7. She was very concerned about the bill's impact on disabled persons. She was worried this was going to become one of the tools in the tool belts of physicians. She went on to tell me the story of her neighbour across the street, who was also disabled, and quite depressed due to COVID-19. In the end, this neighbour of hers took her life with MAID because she felt there was no hope. Her doctor supported the patient's decision, and my constituent was very disturbed by this.

As I close, I am reminded of something a constituent of mine told me back in February, which was that we need to slow this down and not speed it up. After listening to the many witnesses who have spoken at committee, he is correct. We need to carefully consider legislation with such significant consequences.

I agree with my constituent. Yes, we need to deal with the Quebec court decision. We should appeal it, but if not, there is still only one change required. We should have the proper legislated review. We should put in place a pan-Canadian strategy for palliative care. Let us put in full conscience protection for physicians and institutions. Let us leave the 10-day waiting period. These are amendments we have proposed. Let us continue to require two independent witnesses. Let us slow this down.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Madam Speaker, I have to admit I am not totally familiar with the political situation in Saskatchewan. I am a bit prejudiced, because the last time I was there the Hamilton Tiger-Cats were soundly defeated by the Saskatchewan Roughriders. The odd time I went through Saskatoon was through the airport, so I admit I am not familiar with everything there.

However, I did hear my hon. colleague say that most of his constituents were against this and then later suggested that out of 400 messages he received, two-thirds were against the bill we are discussing. There are over 50,000 electors, so I am wondering whether my friend would want to take some more polling as to where his constituents really stand on this issue. I think there may be many more who are in favour of the approach the government is taking than what he has suggested.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

December 2nd, 2020 / 10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Madam Speaker, certainly more polling would be an option, but I can tell the member this. Person after person I have spoken with bring up issues they have with this legislation. Admittedly, not everybody is opposed to it in principle, but they are opposed to the legislation on one ground or another. All we have to do is look at the people who testified at the committee hearings on this, both in the House and the Senate. Person after person had issues with the way the legislation is written. I think it is safe to say I feel comfortable with what the people I have spoken to have said and what I have seen.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Madam Speaker, I look forward to hearing from the Green Party tonight. I believe there is a speaking spot available for its members if they so choose. I know the Green Party put forward an amazing amendment to ensure that the options of assisted suicide would never be brought forward or introduced into a situation by a doctor or physician. I wonder if the member would support that amendment the Green Party brought forward.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Madam Speaker, it is very important that physicians do not suggest MAID to patients. I believe it is critical that MAID be something that is requested by the patient and not suggested by the physician. That was exactly my point in the story I raised, that physicians have the ability to see this as a tool. I am not saying all physicians would do that, but it opens up that possibility, and we have to be very careful this request and decision come solely from the patients themselves.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Speaker, the member across the way asked whether the member intends to poll more of his constituents. I take the point from my colleague from Peace River—Westlock that public opinion polls are not the arbiter of truth.

I want to refer the member who just spoke, and the member who asked the question, to a public opinion polling that was done by Angus Reid specifically on this issue. Angus Reid found that a majority of Canadians support legal euthanasia. A majority of those identify as cautious supporters, that is, they are very concerned around issues around safeguards and protections for the vulnerable, and expressed grave concern about the specific provisions in Bill C-7. At least according to Angus Reid, the government's approach on this and its lack of willingness to incorporate important safeguards is offside with the public and certainly offside with the majority of people who supported its initial legislation.

I do not hold that up to suggest that polls are always authoritative of what constitutes justice and injustice, but it reveals that the government has really lost the plot with respect to people who might have supported its initial steps, but are now very concerned it is going way too far and removing safeguards it said were necessary only four short years ago and its former justice minister said is going too far.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for that information. I would simply say that is consistent with what I have heard from the people I have talked to in my riding. The things he mentioned are exactly what I have been hearing.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-7 this evening from British Columbia.

Before I begin with my formal speech, I want to thank the member for Delta, the Minister of Employment. I was in the House of Commons when she gave her heartfelt speech during earlier periods of this debate. What became very clear is that the minister has grave concerns about the issues facing people with disabilities in respect to Bill C-7.

What struck me about this legislation was that the Liberal government is rushing ahead to put forward these changes without any corresponding framework or financial commitments to support palliative care. In many cases, this is going to leave Canadians without an option to continue their lives under palliative care, which is very concerning for me.

Conservatives are committed to ensuring that this legislation, first and foremost, includes safeguards to protect Canada's most vulnerable. The end of a person's life is a vulnerable time for anyone. As parliamentarians we have a responsibility to not only speak for those who do not have a voice, but first of all, to listen to the many important voices in our community that have something to say about this.

The government has been rushing this legislation and failing to consult with physicians, caregivers, disability rights advocates and the indigenous communities. Dr. Thomas Fung, the lead physician for Siksika Nation, where he has been a family physician for the past 13 years, recently spoke about the lack of access to services and care faced by many first nations in remote communities. He told a story about a patient who suffers from a lung disease that causes him to become easily short of breath, even when doing simple household tasks. This patient uses a walker, but cannot walk for more than a couple of minutes without gasping for breath.

Dr. Fung says that his patient would improve greatly with home oxygen, but regretfully, his lab values on testing fall just short of qualifying for funding through non-insured health benefits for first nations. Dr. Fung is telling us that his patient does not have the finances to afford home oxygen. While the man's condition is incurable, he could certainly have an improved quality of life if he had access to funding to support his home oxygen. Dr. Fung says, under Bill C-7, his patient would qualify for assisted death, when it should be clear to all that there are other ways to relieve this man's suffering to improve his quality of life.

Patients like Dr. Fung's deserve better. In a country as developed and resourceful as Canada, we cannot allow ourselves to abandon people like this. Our health care system is the pride of many Canadians, but that is because of the universality of access to life-saving treatments, not the universal admissibility to a physician-administered death.

Because the Liberal government is not listening, I want to give voice in the House to the concerns expressed by Mr. Tyler White, who is a member of the Blackfoot Confederacy and Treaty 7 in Alberta. He is also the CEO of Siksika's health services.

He said this of Bill C-7, “Let us be clear. MAID with its administration of a lethal substance with the intent to end a person's life is countercultural to our indigenous culture and practices. Our concept of health and wellness does not include the intentional ending of one's life. We recognize the dignity [of life] from its beginning to natural death, and efforts to suggest to our people that MAID is an appropriate end to life is a form of neo-colonialism. Extraordinary efforts have been made in suicide prevention in our communities and the expansion of MAID sends a contradictory message to our peoples that some individuals should receive suicide prevention, while others suicide assistance. Our consistent message to our youth has been that suicide is not the answer to the difficulties and challenges we face as people. Bill C-7 sends a conflicting message in direct opposition to ours.”

“Another grave concern for Bill C-7 in its current form is the absence of protection for individuals working in our communities who do not wish to participate in MAID. We believe that our people should not be coerced to participate in non-indigenous practices against our conscience and will. And it is the kind of oppression that has been the source of much trauma in our history. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada calls upon those who can effect change within the Canadian health care system to recognize the value of aboriginal healing practices and for respecting indigenous people's right to self-determination in spiritual matters, including the right to practise our own traditions and customs. Bill C-7 should be amended such that those who opt to abstain from participating in MAID directly and indirectly will be protected to do so without discrimination in their employment in the health care system.”

Bill C-7 is a matter of life or death, and the Liberals are racing to remove safeguards that just a few years ago were deemed essential.

Conservatives are committed to defending conscience rights for professionals. We are seeking reasonable amendments that will protect the vulnerable, like preserving the reflection period and making sure that MAID is exclusive and patient-requested, and never a matter of coercion or pressure.

More than 1,000 physicians have spoken out, addressing the problems with Bill C-7. Countless disability rights advocates and first nations communities have testified to the issues this legislation will have on them. We owe it to those Canadians to listen, to act and to fix this legislation so that they can live with dignity.

Finally, over the summer I conducted a survey and heard back from hundreds of constituents in my riding regarding this bill. Two things were very clear. First, that there is disagreement over this legislation. Some people are okay with what the government is doing, but many, and in my riding the majority, are not. Second, everyone agrees that in conjunction with legislation such as this, there should be expanded supports for palliative care, for giving people all of the options to make the best choice and in many cases to preserve their life.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 p.m.

St. Catharines Ontario

Liberal

Chris Bittle LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport

Madam Speaker, again, we are hearing the same trope from the Conservative Party that physicians will not be protected and that patients will be coerced. This trope is dangerous. It is misleading to Canadians.

I have asked many members, both now and in 2016, and no one has been able to answer it yet, but I have faith in the hon. member from British Columbia. Could the hon. member name one instance in the entire history of this country where a physician was required to perform any medical—

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:40 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

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10:40 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

The hon. member for—

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

The member is asking a question. Please.

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10:45 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, I know the hon. member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan is eager to interrupt, because he knows I am right on this.

However, I would like to ask the hon. member if he could name one instance in the history of this country where a physician has been required to perform any medical procedure against their will?

I was wondering if the member could also point out the amendments to the original legislation that protected conscience rights for physicians.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Madam Speaker, all I can say is that the physicians in Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon who have contacted me about this bill have outlined very serious and grave concerns about their ability to protect life and continue to serve as doctors.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Speaker, there is accidental ignorance which is forgivable, and there is wilful ignorance which is less so.

The parliamentary secretary was corrected earlier in the evening on his ignorance of the policy of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario. I encouraged him to use Google and read the policy where it says that physicians are required to provide effective referrals in most cases and to directly provide services in emergency situations, even if those services go against their conscience.

I referred him to the case of Nancy Naylor, a physician who had to close her practice early as a result of that policy, in combination with the medical assistance in dying law. I referred him to those cases. I have referenced them in the previous debate in 2016, and yet he repeats his demand for an example after it has already been provided.

I would encourage the member to take the opportunity to educate himself, an opportunity perhaps he has not chosen to take in the past.

I want to thank the member for his excellent speech and would just refer him as well to the testimony we heard in the previous Parliament from Dr. Alika Lafontaine, past president of the Indigenous Physicians Association of Canada, who made many points very similar to the points he raised, specifically highlighting how indigenous people already often have negative interactions with the health care system, similar to the challenges people with disabilities face, maybe, where they are not always treated with respect in those contexts. Dr. Lafontaine said what they were looking for was not medically assisted death, it was medically assisted and supported life.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Madam Speaker, just yesterday, a constituent came up to me and shared a personal experience about MAID and how family members were not able to have enough time to prepare for someone's death. The option to go forward with medically assisted death was very quick. The family members did not have enough opportunities to speak with the individual in question.

I think that right now we are rushing the legislation. We need to do more. We need to reflect more as a society to make sure that we do the most to protect those who need protecting. The legislation would entrench stereotypes and exasperate stigma for Canadians with disabilities, contributing to the adversity and oppression experienced by this vulnerable group.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

Is the House ready for the question?

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10:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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10:45 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Alexandra Mendes

The question is on Motion No. 2. A vote on this motion also applies to Motion No. 3.

If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes to request a recorded division or that the motion be adopted on division, I invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

Sitting ResumedCriminal CodeGovernment Orders

10:50 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Speaker, I would request a recorded division.