House of Commons Hansard #13 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

SeniorsOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Mr. Speaker, seniors built the Canada we know and love today. Their retirement should be secure, and they should have the financial supports they need. GIS recipients are the most financially vulnerable seniors. Can the Prime Minister please update the House on what we are doing to help seniors make ends meet?

SeniorsOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Papineau Québec

Liberal

Justin Trudeau LiberalPrime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Sudbury for this important question and all her hard work.

One of the very first things we did when we came into office in 2015 was increase the GIS for seniors by 10% for the most vulnerable, those who have more challenges making ends meet in their retirement years. Ever since, we have continued to be there to help the seniors who need it most, especially through the challenging times of this pandemic. We will continue to be there for seniors, and they know the Liberal government can always be counted on.

HousingOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

Mr. Speaker, we have laid out how the housing crisis is impacting people, how inflation is driving up the cost of housing, and how the current government can take concrete steps to tackle it. We have laid out how it can tackle speculation by putting in specific measures to stop blind bidding, to stop property flipping and to discourage foreign buyers.

It also needs to respond to the urgency of this crisis by building homes people can afford. We have called for massive and bold investments to build half a million new homes. Will the Prime Minister respond to the housing crisis with the urgency that it demands?

HousingOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Papineau Québec

Liberal

Justin Trudeau LiberalPrime Minister

Mr. Speaker, we agree. That is why we are working together on delivering massive investments to counter the housing challenges that Canadians are facing across the country. Whether it is by cracking down on speculatory or predatory practices that take advantage of homebuyers, by limiting the impact of foreign buyers in our housing market or by investing $4 billion for municipalities to accelerate the construction of affordable homes, these are the kinds of things we are doing. We look forward to working with all partners in the House to get it done.

TransportationOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, from coast to coast to coast, Canadians outside urban areas lack even the most basic public ground transportation. While the inquiry on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls called for such basic services and while our climate goals clearly require low-carbon bus and rail service, coach bus lines from Wilson's Transportation on the west coast to Maritime Bus await financial security and funding support.

A recent B.C. court decision called on the government, in the interests of reconciliation, to fund Vancouver Island rail. Will the Prime Minister commit to a national network of low-carbon, convenient and reliable rail and bus service?

TransportationOral Questions

3:10 p.m.

Papineau Québec

Liberal

Justin Trudeau LiberalPrime Minister

Mr. Speaker, from the beginning of this government's first mandate in 2015, we put forward historic amounts of money to invest in public transit across the country and support the provinces and municipalities in moving forward on investments in transit that are going to keep people safe and reduce carbon emissions. That is what we have consistently done, including now with a permanent ongoing public transit fund that is going to support municipalities large and small across the country with investing for the future. We know there is much more to do and we look forward to continuing to work with all members in this House, including the hon. member, to get that done.

The House resumed from December 7 consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

It being 3:15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the amendment to the motion of the hon. member for Durham relating to the business of supply.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #6

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I declare the amendment carried.

The next question is on the main motion, as amended.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #7

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I declare the motion, as amended, carried.

Alleged Non‑compliance with an Order of the HousePrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today in response to the intervention of the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, who was responding to the question of privilege we raised a few days ago in relation to the production of documents by the Public Health Agency of Canada in the infamous matter of the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg.

We have carefully read the government's response—

Alleged Non‑compliance with an Order of the HousePrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I must interrupt the hon. member for a moment.

Order. The hon. member for Louis-Saint-Laurent is presenting a question of privilege. We want to make sure we all hear it, so I want to ask everyone who is speaking to please take it to the lobby so we can hear the hon. member.

The hon. member for Louis‑Saint‑Laurent.

Alleged Non‑compliance with an Order of the HousePrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for your intervention.

We have carefully read the text tabled by the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, and we have noticed that efforts are being made. However, these efforts to find an appropriate solution are many months late.

Let us recall that there were two positive votes at the former Special Committee on Canada‑China Relations, as well as two votes here, in the House, in favour of our proposal to order the production of documents.

The will of Parliament is therefore clear and, aside from a few details, the September election did not change the seat map to such an extent that one could expect a different result if, by any chance, there were a fifth vote on this request.

My counterpart cited the handling of Afghan detainee documents as an example that we could follow, so allow me to add a bit of context.

An ad hoc committee of parliamentarians was created as a solution forged by necessity given that a 2009 Liberal opposition motion recklessly ordered the public release of some 40,000 pages in their original and uncensored form, despite the fact that this could have prejudiced the interests of Canada and its NATO allies where our troops were at risk on the ground.

In his widely celebrated April 27, 2010, ruling, Speaker Milliken, recognizing that there was support across the House to address the Liberal motion’s shortcomings and ensure sensitive information was protected, invited senior figures in the House to find an “interest-based solution to this thorny question” of reconciling the House’s role as grand inquest of the nation and the executive’s role as defender of realm, before he would turn the matter over to the House for its adjudication. Those discussions yielded the ad hoc committee, whose processes built upon the good-faith efforts of the government of the day, begun well ahead of any Speaker’s rulings, to have a trusted, independent review, at arm’s length from the government, determine what information could safely be placed in the public domain.

Unlike the situation in 2009–10, the motions adopted by the Special Committee on Canada–China Relations and the House included mechanisms to strike a balance between parliamentary accountability and protecting sensitive information in the 546 pages in question, which represent only about 1.4% of the volume of the Afghan detainee documents, and foster ongoing dialogue on the issue, as the Speaker acknowledged in his ruling on June 16, 2021.

The very basis of the government's argument against our point of privilege is that when the Conservatives were in power, they applied the solution that the Liberal government now wishes to apply to the situation at the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg. However, this is like comparing apples and oranges.

The situation in 2009–10 involved the production of 40,000 pages of unredacted documents to be released to the public. We are proposing that 546 pages be released. That is not the same thing at all. In addition, we would like the documents to be analyzed by table officers to prevent any sensitive information that could compromise public safety from being released. Evidently, it is apples and oranges.

It is also important to remember, with respect to the Afghan documents of 2009-10, that our country was involved in a military operation on enemy territory. Soldiers from our army, Canadians in uniform, were fighting the Taliban enemy in Afghanistan. Their health, their safety, and their lives were at risk, whereas with regard to the Winnipeg issue, what we are talking about is analyzing the work of public servants to see what they did with respect to other public servants. This involves a few people, a few individuals. These are two completely different things.

I wish to remind the House that it is also important to keep in mind that the majority of the House voted to have the law clerk and parliamentary counsel conduct a reliable, independent review at arm's length from the government.

To that end, Mr. Speaker, in your June 2021 ruling, you stated the following: “It is, however, not up to the Chair to judge the extent of the measures taken, but to note that they were considered. There is thus no reason to allow an additional delay.”

Regrettably, delay was the name of the game for the government. Its approach this spring was not to accept the reasonable compromise set out in the motions, nor to negotiate workable amendments to those arrangements. Instead, its approach was to deny, then to deflect and then to finally litigate, in an entirely shocking and unprecedented court application against the House of Commons. Members will recall I argued last month that that also constitutes contempt against the House.

We must unfortunately note that this is, to our knowledge, the only time in Canadian history and in Commonwealth parliamentary history that the government has gone to Federal Court to challenge the voted will of the House of Commons. The executive branch used the judicial branch to prevent the legislative branch from doing its job. The government is knocking on the Federal Court's door to prevent the House of Commons from doing its job. This has never happened in Canadian history, nor, as far as we know, has it ever happened in Commonwealth parliamentary history.

The only event that comes to mind happened in June, July and August 1974 at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C., when the President of the United States went to the Supreme Court to prevent the release of documents as requested by the U.S. Congress. The executive branch knocked on the door of the judicial branch to prevent the legislative branch from doing its job. That was the Watergate scandal. Need I remind the House that the government or executive branch at the time, meaning the President, resigned a few days after the Supreme Court decision?

Surely, members can appreciate that Conservatives are worried about the government's sudden 180° turn. Indeed, the official opposition has serious concerns, to say the least, that the government's proposal represents an actual change in any way, shape or form to the government's approach, given the Liberal's pattern of behaviour concerning parliamentary accountability over the past few years.

Furthermore, I must also take note of the government House leader's words on the floor of the Commons last week, which were not in the letter that was shared with journalists, on how his proposition was conditional, when he stated, “If the matter is revived again in this new Parliament by way of substantive motion”.

Therefore, if I am to understand his position correctly, it is not actually an effort to address my question of privilege, which is currently before the Chair, but rather, I would say, distract from it. It will follow that, for the House to achieve any forward progress in obtaining the documents, which have already been ordered four times to be produced, you must deliver your ruling, Mr. Speaker.

The government House leader's parliamentary secretary recently rose in the House to distract us from the principle that a Parliament may punish the contempts committed against its predecessor by discussing imprisonment in the Tower of London five centuries ago. I would remind you of the recent citations of several Canadian speakers' statements on that matter, all from our own lifetime, and all delivered by the hon. member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, who is also the deputy House leader of the official opposition.

Nevertheless, in the interests of finding an adequate solution that addresses the concerns of all the parties, I think that the response could actually be found in the June 21 letter and in the speech given in the House by the former government House leader, the member for Honoré-Mercier, who said, and I quote:

While the government accepts that the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel has the appropriate security clearance to review the information, we do not believe he has the necessary training or expertise in national security-related information to make the necessary assessment.

He continued:

The government is open to providing the unredacted documents to the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel if the House of Commons agrees that national security specialists can assist him in this process and that other appropriate safeguards be put in place.

This offer is consistent with the open-door policy that the law clerk talked about during the March 31 meeting of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. He said, and I quote:

In terms of national security and other grounds, my office acts essentially as the department of justice for the legislative branch and we provide legal services and legal advice to committees on all of their areas of law, including all of those potential grounds for confidentiality that committees and/or the House may decide to accept or not accept. We are prepared and able to provide that legal advice in the interpretation of those concepts, including national security, commercial sensitivity and so on.

That said, there may well be some factual information and knowledge that the government or other entities have that we don't have, because it's their information and their concerns, and they may be well placed to share that with us with regard to proposed redactions or proposed areas of concern. That's certainly something the committee can consider, namely, to have my office provide you with advice on the scope and application of those grounds, but not preventing the government or any witness from proposing and raising a concern—albeit, with this committee, and ultimately the House, still having the last word on accepting or not that interpretation.

Therefore, I would propose that the government deposit the documents with the law clerk, as previously ordered, and together, along with other representatives of the acting national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister and/or the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, to suggest what, in their professional opinions, ought to be redacted and why, in order to assist the law clerk in discharging his duty.

As for the other unspecific “appropriate safeguards” the former government House leader referred to, I believe these should be simple, incontrovertible matters, such as ensuring that in camera discussion of the documents does not take place on Zoom or allowing the meeting to take place at a secure facility away from Parliament Hill. These could be easily negotiated in a unanimous consent motion to supplement the existing sound and responsible measures already adopted by the House.

That is what Conservatives believe to be a reasonable resolution to the situation. It would allow the government's concerns to be addressed while vindicating the authority of Parliament to order the production of documents. Hopefully, the Liberal government will voluntarily table the documents, so we can get on with the redaction process.

Otherwise, you will have to make a ruling to allow the process to move forward, and if you find a prima facie case of contempt, I remain prepared to move an appropriate motion.

Alleged Non‑compliance with an Order of the HousePrivilegeGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I thank the hon. member for Louis-Saint‑Laurent. I will take these matters under advisement and come back to the House with my ruling as soon as possible.

(On the Order: Introduction of Bills)

S-2 — December 7, 2021 — The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons — An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I wish to draw the attention of the House to the presence on the order paper of Bill S-2, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts, which the Senate adopted on December 7 and submitted to our attention the same day.

The Chair is not in the habit of expressing its concerns on procedural matters in the House unless a point of order has been raised, except in very specific and particularly important cases.

I thus wish to advise the House that, at first glance, Bill S-2 seems to infringe upon the financial prerogative of the Crown and, since it originates in the Senate, it could also infringe upon the privileges of the House with respect to the appropriation of public funds.

The provisions set out in the bill are extremely complex, and the Chair wishes to hear members' observations on the matter.

I thus encourage members who wish to comment on the issue to do so as soon as possible. In the meantime, I will not allow the motion for first reading to be moved.

I thank hon. members for their attention.

December 8th, 2021 / 4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

I have the honour to inform the House that a communication has been received as follows:

Rideau Hall

Ottawa

December 8, 2021

Mr. Speaker,

I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Mary May Simon, Governor General of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bill listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 8th day of December, 2021, at 10:49 a.m.

Yours sincerely,

Ian McCowan

Secretary to the Governor General and Herald Chancellor

The schedule indicates the bill assented to was Bill C‑4, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conversion therapy).

Access to Information and PrivacyRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, I have the pleasure to table, in both official languages, two copies of the 2021 access to information and privacy reports for the following: the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces; Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces; Military Grievances External Review Committee; Military Police Complaints Commission; Communications Security Establishment and Non-Public Property; and Staff of the Non-Public Funds, Canadian Forces.

While I am on my feet, I move:

That the House do now proceed to orders of the day.

Access to Information and PrivacyRoutine Proceedings

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes to request a recorded division or that the motion be adopted on division, I would invite them to rise and so indicate to the Chair.

Access to Information and PrivacyRoutine Proceedings

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Mr. Speaker, I request a recorded division.

Access to Information and PrivacyRoutine Proceedings

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

Call in the members.

During the taking of the vote:

Access to Information and PrivacyRoutine Proceedings

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Anthony Rota

The hon. member for Dufferin—Caledon did not hear the question, but we need unanimous consent to allow him to vote. Do we have unanimous consent?